Why Believe in 2012?

reply to post by TimeSpiral


I'm not so much trying to be an ass as I am trying to get people to examine their beliefs. The motto of ATS is deny ignorance, yet it seems like many of those that have bought into these 2012 theories have embraced it. As I pointed out, nobody was even able to give me any examples of a Long Count that ends after 13 baktun. The belief that there is something special about the start of the 14th baktun is a basic component to all these theories and yet these people can't even tell me why. Instead all they can do is act as mouthpieces of various New Age authors. That is not denying ignorance. In fact it makes them no different than the sheople that so many people on here criticize.

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
reply to post by TimeSpiral

 

I'm not so much trying to be an ass as I am trying to get people to examine their beliefs. The motto of ATS is deny ignorance, yet it seems like many of those that have bought into these 2012 theories have embraced it. As I pointed out, nobody was even able to give me any examples of a Long Count that ends after 13 baktun. The belief that there is something special about the start of the 14th baktun is a basic component to all these theories and yet these people can't even tell me why. Instead all they can do is act as mouthpieces of various New Age authors. That is not denying ignorance. In fact it makes them no different than the sheople that so many people on here criticize.

I will accept that as a "You're right, Time Spiral."

Originally posted by TimeSpiral

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
reply to post by TimeSpiral

 

I'm not so much trying to be an ass as I am trying to get people to examine their beliefs. The motto of ATS is deny ignorance, yet it seems like many of those that have bought into these 2012 theories have embraced it. As I pointed out, nobody was even able to give me any examples of a Long Count that ends after 13 baktun. The belief that there is something special about the start of the 14th baktun is a basic component to all these theories and yet these people can't even tell me why. Instead all they can do is act as mouthpieces of various New Age authors. That is not denying ignorance. In fact it makes them no different than the sheople that so many people on here criticize.

I will accept that as a "You're right, Time Spiral."

agreed.
OP instead of answering my questions, feigns ignorance of the Great Flood, and Catastrophes occuring within human history [some covered up, like the cometary impact that caused the black death], and continues to post fulminant doctrinal nonsense; as if the materialist paradigm were the be all and end all, just like the religitards who aghast at the ever accelerating decline of the religious paradigm [and rapid ascent of the magical] are on a whistlestop tour of ATS and other forums.

whistling past the graveyard indeed.

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
I'm back once again with a question for supporters of the various 2012 theories. This one is actually quite simple. Why?

In general most people sense that there's a wrongness to the world and they want to see things made right, but there's no means to make things right through the current worldwide government structures. So people are frustrated about their lack of ability to change things and they readily embrace any theory (no matter how crazy or poorly supported) that implies the world is going to be destroyed & re-made, cleansed or purified in some way. And the sooner the better, so 12-2012 is particularly palatable because it's a looming date. Personally I think it's no coincidence that every ancient text from the Hopi writings to the Bible predict a major upheaval, it will happen. But none of the ancient writings attach a date to the event, in fact most describe characteristics to look for as signs but are not specific about the "when" of it.

The Mayan "prophecies" are actually not written prophecies at all, but rather they are modern interpretations of Mayan pictograms. There is a lot of controversy about what the pictograms actually mean- for example a dragon with water pouring out of its mouth has been interpreted as a worldwide 2012 flood, but it may not have been meant to be taken literally, or it may be literal but mean something else (like a dragon rising out of a body of water), or it may not apply to 2012 at all since it's not part of the calendar. Since the Mayans were long-ago absorbed into the general population, they're not around to confirm what these drawings meant, so it's just a guessing game. And to date, not a single interpretation of things like this has come true and I don't expect this one to either.

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger


For one there is no evidence for the Great Flood. Second, I can find no source that would place it to around 5,000 years ago. Then there's the fact that there should then be evidence of three other catastrophic events occurring before that on the same 5,000 year cycle yet you cannot provide me with any. You have also failed to explain why, if the Popol Vuh were accurate, that it only accounts for time up to 20,000 years ago. What of the other 80,000 years of human history? What of the other 4.5 billion years of Earth history? Your entire theory is based upon one tiny aspect of a manuscript that isn't supported by fact. Furthermore, as I have stated previously, it doesn't even accurately reflect traditional Mayan beliefs. Find me one example outside of post-Columbian sources, such as the Popol Vuh and the books of the Chilam Balam, that speak of multiple ages.

Personally I think people are looking around at what's going on , more and more are realising we don't know and understand everything
Every where 'pressure' is building up and events ...... Coming to a head
( EU, Iran, Arab spring, UFOs, WW3, loss of rights, conspiracies proven to be true, earth quakes ,volcanos ,global warming , yellow stone, earth groans, weather phenomenon ect ect ect )
Now it may just be down to our unpressidented access to info
A case where we are more awaits of events than ever before
Mix this with the myans and the number of astrological events that take place on or close to that date
Now I'm not a 2012 end of the world supporter but nor do I dissbelive in the possibility
But I look around and can't help but think something BIG is coming SOON
Something world changing
The problem maybe that we might not even notice or the full ramifications of what ever happens doesn't become apparent until later
But I truly believe something big is coming

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
reply to post by DerepentLEstranger

 

For one there is no evidence for the Great Flood. Second, I can find no source that would place it to around 5,000 years ago. Then there's the fact that there should then be evidence of three other catastrophic events occurring before that on the same 5,000 year cycle yet you cannot provide me with any. You have also failed to explain why, if the Popol Vuh were accurate, that it only accounts for time up to 20,000 years ago. What of the other 80,000 years of human history? What of the other 4.5 billion years of Earth history? Your entire theory is based upon one tiny aspect of a manuscript that isn't supported by fact. Furthermore, as I have stated previously, it doesn't even accurately reflect traditional Mayan beliefs. Find me one example outside of post-Columbian sources, such as the Popol Vuh and the books of the Chilam Balam, that speak of multiple ages.

such a narrow and restricted point of view:shk:
i can see you are not interested in examining beliefs , but imposing your own, me thinks.
and i will not be jumping through your hoops for your amusement, or whatever it is you think you are doing here.

if you are unaware of the fact that most of mesoamerican records were intentionally destroyed, why book burnings are a periodic event throughout human history and why TCOTBIP do this, or examples of the concept of World Ages in christian, Greco-roman, Hindu, and many other belief systems...

why should the popol vuh cover the entirety of human history? or 4.5billion yrs for that matter? pedantic much?
also the your claim that the Popol Vuh and the books of the Chilam Balam don't count, having been corrupted by christian apocalyptism is spurious and self serving at best; considering earlier copies were conveniently destroyed [never mind the false claims by the RC priesthood that beliefs and practices known since the late Paleolithic/Mesolithic/early Neolithic, such as the dying and resurrecting god, the eating of the god, were satan having a laugh at their expense, you are very much like these priests by the way]

you also continue to avoid answering the questions i asked

Originally posted by DerepentLEstranger
reply to post by Xcalibur254

 

i see you here, at it again,
trying to futilely prevent,divert, and obstruct
the Immanentization of the Eschaton
www.chaosmatrix.org...
why?
are you afeared of change?
does the present order of things suit and soothe you?

the purpose of all calendars, being the keeping track of cyclical events
tell me, O wise Whistler past the Graveyard,
all the previous Ages[Suns] ended with a catastrophe of global proportions,
what makes the current Age/Sun special or exempt?

edit on 6-1-2012 by DerepentLEstranger because: pic

Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:42:39 -0600 (MDT)
From: J B Bell ([email protected])
To: zee-list
Subject: Re: Source of "Immanentize the Eschaton"

On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Theta 8008 wrote: > >Does anyone know what the original source of the phrase "Immanentize the > >Eschaton" is? I've been able to track it back as far as the Principia > >Discordia, but can't find any earlier sources. Is this it? Or is there > >an earlier source? > > It is actually discussed in theology. In THE ILLUMINATI PAPERS, RAW > talks about articles in NATIONAL REVIEW (W.F. Buckley mag) in the 60's > that referred to imanentization with regard to (I think) Neo-gosticism). > The book is at home, so I'll look it up later and write back. > Zero

I have seen the phrase used in an anti-heretical paper. My head about exploded when I read it; I had been thinking it was original to RAW. Nothing new under the sun, of course. I think the charge was levelled against Martin Buber where I read it, but honestly my memory is faulty on this point, except that I am very certain that it appears to be a theological term, specifically a heresy, that predates RAW significantly.

A little note on this oft-misunderstood phrase: many people confuse it with the idea of "imm*i*nentizing" the eschaton. Imminent means "real soon". Immanent means "everywhere" or "all-permeating", perhaps. The eschaton, as every good Chaote knows, is the End of Everything. "Immanentizing the eschaton" refers to the heretical idea that the eschaton is in fact a state of being, accessible at any time, rather than some chronological event. Of course, in the theological usage, it doesn't normally refer to magickal efforts to make apocalypse happen, as the Chaote's looser usage usually means.

in short
Why Believe in 2012?

Why not?

reply to post by Xcalibur254


I took a course in astrophysics at Yale and fundamentally in the science of Astrophysics they mainly study the orbits of planets and by the fluctuation in their orbits based upon physics and inertia they can determine the size of the body that is influencing it's orbit....and thereby locate planetary or stellar bodies that are invisible to the eye.

Most recently a new planet was discovered....a Gas Giant about the size of Jupiter....outside of my Astrophysics course I have heard little if any news about it.

It is called Tyche.

What about Tyche ? The recently discovered 10th planet....? Pluto actually lost it's planet status....in order to not name Tyche as Planet X ....or Nibiru as the Sumerians had called it.

Why is that ?

It's not necessarily believing in 2012 per se but what it is that we are NOT being told....that's all.

NASA = Never A Straight Answer....

reply to post by nh_ee


Your facts are all messed up here. First off Tyche has not been discovered. It is a hypothesized planet, and outside of Whitmire and Matese (the two astronomers who hypothesized its existence) it doesn't have much support from the astronomical community. Second, the X in Planet X is not a Roman numeral. It is used to mean an unknown planet. Much in the same way people use Mr. X to refer to as person whose identity is unknown. They're not calling them Mr. 10. There's also the fact that the reason Pluto's designation was changed to dwarf planet is because of Eris. Eris is actually more massive than Pluto and when it was discovered astronomers decided to reevaluate what exactly constitutes a planet. So, even if Pluto remained a planet Tyche would not be the tenth planet. It would be at least the eleventh as Eris would be a planet as well.

Now, on to the Nibiru claims regarding Tyche. These just completely ignore Sitchin's made-up mythology and show that people are just applying this label to anything they can. Now as I'm sure most of us know Nibiru is supposed to have a 3,600 year orbit that brings it into the inner solar system. Tyche on the other hand would have a 1.8 million year orbit and stay exclusively in the Oort Cloud. I'll also bring up the fact that Nibiru is no way rooted in Sumerian mythology. It is instead a fictional story created by Zechariah Sitchin.

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger


So you're going to make an argument from ignorance? Since we don't know what was in the destroyed manuscripts we're just going to assume they were filled with references to 2012? That's not going to fly. Don't you find it odd that there are no references on any monuments regarding this catastrophe? That the only time we start seeing references to it is after the Maya encounter the Christians, who have shown a significant interest in the Apocalypse over the years? Why is it that there are no examples of a single Long Count from the Classic period that ends at 13.0.0.0.0, but we have plenty of examples that go far beyond this date?