Why is it "so" important for Christians to confess Jesus as their Lord?

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by Awoken4Ever

 

I can explain it in earthly terms for you.

You did just that perfectly. This was one of the better explanations I have ever heard.

Thank you!

Originally posted by LongbottomLeaf
reply to post by sHuRuLuNi

 

Well according to Paul....
"the gospel I preach is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ". Galatians 1:11-12

Paul followed the word of Christ. He was a disciple of Christ.

edit on 1-1-2012 by LongbottomLeaf because:

If I come up today and claim "I had a vision" then say that Jesus Christ gave me the gospel, would you believe me?

There is no difference in what Paul did. He never met Jesus, he was not his disciple, nor a disciple of his disciples. His teachings were contrary to those of the original disciples and he fought to establish HIS doctrine over their, thus bastardizing the original teachings of Jesus.

All the gospel writers (canon) wrote later and based their writing on the paulian doctrine. Those who DID not base their writings on Paul but on the original disciples were supressed and ultimately in the congresses following that of Nicea were rejected.

The sects like Nazarenes and ebionites were much closer to the true teachings of Jesus, but they were condemned as heretics - Why? - Because the STATE was already established on the pauline doctrine.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

 

Because He is Lord???

Lord = ? (specific, don't answer with "Christ" please)
God = ?

I will be honest NOT. I struggle with your posts a lot. You seem to talk down to people quite a bit. Instead of allowing someone to have their own experience or help them to understand things on their own, come to their own understanding, you try to "tell" people what it is like. Often, I am not really sure how your message is getting through to the people who are still asleep, rather than trying to confirm your place with those that are awake. I think you might want to think about that. I honestly think you need to go back to basics and live with the peasants for a while instead of trying to be their master. Many of us will never hear you at all if you don't try to figure out how to communicate with those who aren't where you are yet.

The above answer is perfect example of that. Why not break down what "Lord" means to you? Why not talk about it like you are talking to a 7 year old trying to help them with their math homework? What I hear is 2+2 = 4 just because I say so, instead of breaking down how we even got 2 to begin with.

Hope that makes sense. Not trying to give you a hard time, but what I hear from you is talking to "your people" instead of to those of us that count.

Happy New Year friend

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi


Well im going to be late for work so I dont want to get into it. Make all the arguments you want the disciples follow christ not paul end of story. You can justify it anyway you want paul gave props to jesus the end.

Originally posted by sHuRuLuNi

Originally posted by LongbottomLeaf
reply to post by Awoken4Ever

 

They are called CHRIST ians for a reason...

In fact, it was PAUL who first came up with this stuff - a thing UNKNOWN to the original Jesus' disciples.

And since the gospel writers wrote all AFTER paul, and well after his doctrine was established, we see his influence in the gospels too.

Therefore, they shall be called PAULIANS.

I have followed you for a while but I don't like to questions others faiths but I am going to pose to you a couple of questions so that you can see why I believe what I believe.

The main claim of the Koran is that the bible was corrupted which is why Mohammad was given his revelation thus making it the perfect book.

I have a difficult time understanding this. You see I believe that God the creator of the world could protect a single book.

You see we both believe that all salvation comes from the lineage of Abraham and Moses. So with that belief I don’t understand why God would allow man to pervert and change the book that first told this message. Since we both agree about the promise made to Abraham and Moses, and the Jews believe the first 5 books of the Old Testament were given directly to Moses why would God have let those words be corrupted. It should not seem impossible that God left that message with believers that would protect it and defend it until death.

So here is the main issue that I have with the Koran. The story from creation to Moses deferrers from the Jews who we both agree were God’s chosen people to the Koran. The Christian faith accepts the whole of the message given to the Jews from Creation to Christ.

So you want me to believe in a God that was incapable of protecting his message for almost 3000 years. I am sorry but I choose to believe in a God that loved man enough to protect his message for those same 3000 years.
When you make claims about the bible since you don’t believe in it you are doing so without the guide of the Holy Spirit, as the Koran does not promise the believer of this indwelling teacher that is the Spirit of God. So why do you think that you could be an authority on the bible that you don’t believe in?

I believe in the bible and I find no contradictions from what Paul teaches and what Christ teaches. They fit together perfectly and the entire bible both the Old and New Testaments tell a complete truth. The Holy Spirit that lives in me agrees with what I am saying.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Here is a message directly from Christ.

5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”
7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.

So you see for me to say that Abraham is the root of the tree it agrees with this first. Look at who Jesus mentions first. The promise was first made to Abraham and we will join him at the feast, according to Jesus own words.

I know you are still searching for the truth. I pray that someday you will be able to accept the whole bible as the truth. You know by now that I pray this out of love not out of condemnation as many others do. If you don’t believe that I love you enough to tell you the truth believe that God loves you enough to preserve his word in one book. I pray this only that you may find the rest that I have found, in the name of the Son Jesus Christ.

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi

His teachings were contrary to those of the original disciples and he fought to establish HIS doctrine over their, thus bastardizing the original teachings of Jesus.

Or the writer of Acts made up most of his account of Paul.

reply to post by sacgamer25

. . . believe that all salvation comes from the lineage of Abraham and Moses.

What would make you believe that?
There is a quote in the Gospel of John having Jesus say that salvation is of the Jews. That is a translation and he probably meant of the tribe of Judah, as opposed to let's say the tribe of Manasseh, which is likely the Samaritan woman was a member of.

reply to post by sacgamer25

. . . someday you will be able to accept the whole bible as the truth.

I hope some day you will stop accepting a pile of propaganda as if it was truth, and go back to looking at the Bible.

Because Abraham is mentioned attending a celebration concerning the Kingdom, that does not mean Abraham created the kingdom. I would assume Jesus was talking about the Kingdom of God that he was in the habit of declaring the arrival of.

reply to post by Awoken4Ever

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

"Lord" in those days did not mean "God" or "Deity", it meant a recognition of nobility. No reason here why Jesus should even equal God, let alone outshine him.

1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

Christ was sent in the flesh from ("from", in this case, means "by") God. Christ isn't God, he was sent by God as a messenger/guide.

The New Testament is full of statements about the coming judgment of the Gentiles from the past and the non believers of today. This is why I refuse to judge anyone because I don’t know what is in their heart.

A Gentile is a person of non-Jewish faith and/or non-Jewish nation. This includes Christians. That's a bit of a catch-22, isn't it? Be a Christian and be judged... AFTER having your sins supposedly forgiven by following and "accepting" Christ, orrrr be a Jew and get a 'get out of jail free' card for being a chosen one no matter how much you sin because hell doesn't exist in the Jewish faith, because it goes against their beliefs of God being merciful and uncruel.

I don't believe Christ or God are necessary for either salvation or Heaven to exist. I don't believe in deities, however I do believe in god. Is god a being? No. Is god loving? Yes. Is god cruel? Sure. Is god energy? Indeed. Is god conscious? Absolutely. The universe is conscious, and there isn't a man or woman alive that doesn't possess the same powers you'd credit to god. We are gods.
We're a young species, but we're completely capable of defining our reality in both this world and the next. We need but to put down our archaic notions of needing a God to define our existence and give a little more credit to ourselves for how far we've come from the caves of this world to the dominant species in our known Galaxy. We're greater than we think we are. Unfortunately, we also as terrible as we can be. Religion reflects both sides of the spectrum in this regard. We still have a ways to go, but we're getting there.

Originally posted by Awoken4Ever
I been thinking about something. Why is it "so" important for Christians to confess Jesus as their Lord? It seems to me, just based off threads I have been reading here, that there is so much focus put on "Jesus" and not enough on "God." God is the big picture, not Christ. Christ is secondary, but throughout the threads when it comes to Christianity, Jesus seems to be the ultimate focus. Why is this "such" a factor alone?

Jesus is God-- the second Person of the Holy Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-- One God in three Persons.

That the Son, already fully God, is also fully human since the Incarnation over 2000 years ago, He is often viewed as more approachable, more tangible and more available, spiritually, to many.

I believe what you are noticing is the fairly recent emphasis-- particularly among fundamentalist evangelicals (fairly recent as a identifiable group of Christians)-- confessing Jesus as Lord and seeking to persuade others to do likewise. That emphasis ought not be to the exclusion of the confession of God the Holy Spirit and God the Father-- but it sure comes off that way.

I think (only that) it may be a result of a personal expression of devotion; but has not the contemplative theological intent more traditionally expressed in times past-- especially in North America where organized religion has given way to one's own possession of a Bible and one's own interpretation of it.

Whether it is meant in such a way, it seems very much to have that American "individualism" as its tone in a sort of "It is all about Jesus and me-- and it can be about Jesus and you" leaving little, if any, room for an "us."

So if I understand this correctly, if one has God 100% in his life, his head, his heart, and his actions. Has freed himself from the bondage of self, lives a righteous life, is of services to others, carries the word of God not just in his own words, but mainly in his actions, and loves all through God.

I don't know that such is correct-- formulas such as those will vary from one person and another based upon wisdom, gifts, experiences and such.

And trying to define a formula for getting into Heaven may be problematic. To start with-- How would one have God 100% in his or her life? Playing Abraham, I tease by asking, "what if only 90%... how about 50%...?"

It is not "bondage to self," but "bondage to sin" which is most often considered. A somewhat high spirituality often attempts to minimize the ego so that true and spiritual self may emerge, but that is a whole different topic-- but a good one.

That when he get's upstairs and meets the Big Man, the Big Man is going to say, "you have lived a very good life, done well, but because you never called Christ your savior, Shepard, etc... I have to send you to hell..." then pulls the big lever and the trap door opens beneath him?

No. To the contrary.

Jesus told us that some who confess His Name will be told by him "Depart from me... I never knew you;" and to the great delight and surprise of others who have never heard of Jesus, He says, "Come! O blessed of my Father!"

It is not a great evangelical tool to point out that Jesus says that persons who did not know Christ (or even of Him) may have salvation-- but it is in the New Testament.

Honestly, I am torn as to which is better. I believe I have a "personal relationship with Christ" but it is very difficult work-- more difficult than loving an enemy-- which anyone can do-- Christian or otherwise. To a large degree, it hurts. But the relationship is worthwhile. Even if I had a guarantee of salvation-- which I do not-- I would rather live a life in misery knowing Him than not.

Your mileage may vary.

Nor is it a good evangelical tool for North American ears to be told, "Blessed are the poor" or "Blessed are those who mourn" as it goes against the "American way." Certainly, "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God" will cause pews to empty in some churches-- or at least cause quite a bit of squirming.

I am not the product of a church which emphasizes public declarations as a form of evangelizing. There is a very private component which is emphasized-- "work, prayer, and study" come to mind as a "rule of life" I have followed.

My spiritual gifts may include being a good teacher; but they almost certainly do not include being an evangelist-- so you can see where my objection to that emphasis instead of one of teaching, may persuade me to oppose it as a "formula."

reply to post by FugitiveSoul

Is god energy? Indeed. Is god conscious? Absolutely. The universe is conscious, and there isn't a man or woman alive that doesn't possess the same powers you'd credit to god.

I would say the universe is energy that comes from a consciousness, meaning past tense, a consciousness that became a directed energy. God, I would consider a person, which is a big turn-around from what I thought up until very recently.

reply to post by jmdewey60


That is your belief, and I respect that. I don't necessarily agree with it as I believe "god" is everything and as such everything has the power of "god", but I respect it. In essence, I don't condemn you for your beliefs as many would.

reply to post by Frira

"work, prayer, and study" come to mind as a "rule of life" I have followed.

Wow! Isn't it so much nicer to just say a declaration and have done with it, then we can get back to watching football and having a few cold ones?

reply to post by FugitiveSoul


I didn't make it up.
It comes from the Stoics and they got it in turn from "the ancients".

reply to post by jmdewey60


Didn't mean to imply you made it up. I was just expressing my respect for your beliefs.

reply to post by FugitiveSoul


That's cool and I just don't want to take credit for inventing philosophy, which the Greeks did, a long time ago and I just discovered it in a serious sort of way when I read a book called, Paul and the Stoics.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

. . . someday you will be able to accept the whole bible as the truth.

I hope some day you will stop accepting a pile of propaganda as if it was truth, and go back to looking at the Bible.

Because Abraham is mentioned attending a celebration concerning the Kingdom, that does not mean Abraham created the kingdom. I would assume Jesus was talking about the Kingdom of God that he was in the habit of declaring the arrival of.

I never declared it Abraham's Kingdome I simply mentioned that Christ mentioned him first because he was the first to receive the promise.

I read or listen to the bible every day. At work I drive about 2 hours each day and listen only to the bible. I come to this site because many believers and unbelievers pose difficult questions that strengthen my faith. My children listen to the bible every night as the fall asleep.

I have accepted no propaganda, I tell you that I have not found one church that teaches the understanding that I have received from the bible. The bible itself with the guidance of the Holy Spirit is how I came to my understanding. I have lost a good friend because he believes the church over the bible.

If I say that I am at peace and at rest then why would you want me to believe anything else. I have found the rest that Christ Promised. You are still searching all over the place and have no rest. This is why I pray for you.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Frira

 

"work, prayer, and study" come to mind as a "rule of life" I have followed.

Wow! Isn't it so much nicer to just say a declaration and have done with it, then we can get back to watching football and having a few cold ones?

edit on 1-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

There is football on television? Why the heck am I posting on ATS?!

Hey Dewey!

Two things:

One: The sun just set, so I am thinking of a cup of tea before the beer.

Two: I refrained from saying in my first reply, but will not do so now...

From a Christian perspective (mainstream variety-- recognized around the globe)--

* Start with the three Creeds (Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian-- add the Chalcedon Definition for good measure) and
* Read a Bible,
and
* Discuss all, often, with spiritually mature persons you have recognized by their behavior as having reason, balance and wisdom.

Next, learn to ignore persons who have an agree with me "or else" teaching. They may even be right (rarely, but can be)-- but I, like most others, can ignore them and come to my own conclusions without the duress.

JMDewey-- I am convinced you have done all of the above-- and we sometimes agree; sometimes disagree (particularly on history)-- but I would have that beer with you.

Originally posted by kdog1982
My nephew had his big outting proclaiming Jesus saved him from his sins and will save us all if we willing give our selves to him.
My expression could be compared to a deer in headlights.
He is only 18,still in high school.
Little does he know is that the real world works a little more differently than what he knows.

I am proud of your nephew. It takes guts for an teenager to share his faith. Your popularity is going to take a big hit and you will be persecuted.

Yes, life gets tougher with each passing day and with God as his #1 he will do just fine in the real world.

I wish I knew the Lord the way he does at that age. The real world wouldn't have beaten me to a pulp if I did.