*Inciting racial hatred?:* Can (extreme) Islam ever coexist with 'the west'?

Would you people say that by broaching this very subject I am guilty of inciting racial hatred? I sort of thought that this post would bring out the extreme views of ATS, both for and against parties, and it certainly has done that.

I have been trying to think of an elegant way of investigating this further here on ATS and this seemed like the best way of doing it. With a couple of notable exceptions I can see nearly everyones points here although I don't neccessarily agre with them.

Oh, one rather pertinent point: I'm muslim! (and a freemason but that's another story!)

What are your thoughts now specifically the question; was my original post tantamount to inciting racial hatred?

HTMB
________________________________

Original Post:

Firstly I would like to point out that I am not anti-islam per say, but this question has been going through my mind over the last few days. These are solely my opinions and not those of this website or associated sites.

Secondly I put this in the War on Terrorism forum and not the Conspiracies in Religion forum as I think it is better suited here.

So, my main question as stated above is; Can Islam peacefully and harmoniously coexist with the 'mixed-bag' that makes up religion in the west?

Try as hard as I can I really cannot think of a way that we can just get along. Our respective faiths are just too different, and their teachings creates two groups that differ in just too many ways to work.

The very notion of 'Jihad' is so far away from the way the mainstream religious sects in the west (Christianity both Catholic & Protestant, Judaism etc) that we cannot realistically expect to be able to fathom the workings of such faiths as Islam.

We've proven our inter-religious tolerance historically. Admittedly there have been clashes (Northern Ireland, Serbs vs Croats etc), but none of these have ever threatened the very backbone of our civilisation. The 'Islam situation' thus far has been nothing short of religious war on their part and total uncomprehension on our side. How can we be expected to appreciate the argument of this religion when we see them flying planes into buildings, beheading westerners and generally calling for the immediate murder of all (women & children included) 'infidels' unless an immediate conversion to Islam is forthcoming?

I could sit here all day and pick holes in virtually every religion on the face of the earth (Christianity included), so please don't think I am anti-Islam, but this is just not going to work.

What on earth drives these people to move over to a Christian country like England and then expect to be able to act as if they are holed up in some Afghanistani mountain range. More importantly what drives a country to accept immigrants hell-bent on trying to subvert the religious element already domiciled in that country?

My argument is that Islam seems to be the only religion that just cannot get on with the others.

If it were a dog it would be put down or isolated...

If it were a colleague in your office he/she would be dismissed...

If it were a child in elementary school they would be seperated from the other kids...

Its a tricky situation, and Islam does have every right have it's voice heard, but it occurs to me that as long as they continue with their violence-inciting behaviour in the west that they will never be regarded as anything other than barbarians.

Your comments and thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

HTMB.



[edit on 7-9-2004 by HeyThatsMyBike]

[edit on 7-9-2004 by HeyThatsMyBike]

[edit on 8-9-2004 by HeyThatsMyBike]

There are many, many muslims living in the United States. This fact alone negates this topic.

Turkey manages to do okay. They've done okay for
years now. They have a secular government. As
long as a theocracy doesn't exhist, and as long as
the secular government doesn't allow Wahabbism or
other fundamentalist islamics to fester, the Islamic
country should be okay.

It will take a LONG time to get to that point ... where
the Islamic countries are all like Turkey. Turkey, and
Morocco to some extent.

Originally posted by heelstone
There are many, many muslims living in the United States. This fact alone negates this topic.

Really? It completely and utterly negates this topic?! The notion that inter-religious relations between the muslim world and all others is negated by the fact that many, many muslims live in the US?

Could you tell me, out of interest, what the religions breakdown of the US is?

HTMB.

[edit on 7-9-2004 by HeyThatsMyBike]

www.adherents.com...

The above site (admittedly from 2001) puts the combined total of Christians, Jews and non-religious groups in the US at 91%. Islam makes up 0.5%.

Quite a few I admit, but enough to totally negate my post Heelstone?

Yes. Enough to negate your post. There are around 3 million muslims in the United States proving that muslims can indeed live with westerners. Or do you think they have to sign an oath of loyalty to show that they can live peacefully with other U.S. citizens?

[edit on 7-9-2004 by heelstone]

Muslims already coexist with the west, Muslims in the UK live side by side with us with no trouble. Just extremist, all types, cannot exist with the west.

Originally posted by heelstone
There are many, many muslims living in the United States. This fact alone negates this topic.

There is no way Islam can coexist with the West. If it could, the current war between the west, and islam, would not be being fought. This fact alone negates the above quote.

Originally posted by infinite
Muslims already coexist with the west, Muslims in the UK live side by side with us with no trouble. Just extremist, all types, cannot exist with the west.

Same for us, here in Italy... and I have to say for France too, which has the biggest arab population in Europe...

The only way Muslim and Americans could live together is if EVERY extriemest is terminated. There can be no one left to instill hate in average muslim. Remember, all extriemest muslims were not always extriemest. Someone talked them into it! Kill all the people promoting extriemest views in Muslim beliefs and we might just get along.

Originally posted by smokenmirrors
There is no way Islam can coexist with the West. If it could, the current war between the west, and islam, would not be being fought. This fact alone negates the above quote.

So now the U.S. is engaged in a declared war on islam? I have not seen that proclaimed by any government official yet. All I have witnessed is the U.S. fighting an undeclared "War On Terrorism" centered mainly around the popular term "jihadists". Which seemingly excludes large sections of the actual islamic religion.

[edit on 7-9-2004 by heelstone]

Originally posted by heelstone
There are many, many muslims living in the United States. This fact alone negates this topic.

Well, that's just a ridiculous statement. However, the title of the topic may be better served by changing it to, "Can RADICAL Islam ever coexist with 'the west'?"

If that were the case, I would have to say no, as the end resolve of these radical whacko's is to reestablish the Caliphate over the entire world. I did quite a bit of extensive research on this shortly after 9/11, and found this on a radical Muslim website. It disappeared shortly thereafter. I wonder why....the interesting part is in the lower right hand corner, under the heading, "After 100 years".....

Green means Islamic state. Not just a country dominated by the religion, but an Islamic government.





[edit on 7-9-2004 by Affirmative Reaction]

muslims have proved time and time again that they are incapable of existing in a civilized country.
can anyone name anything islam has contributed to the civilized world since about 1200 AD other than hate and intolorance, I cant !

Look, I'm not looking to ruffle any feathers here, but even so.....

It's a little bit like the Pit-Bull debate. I read earlier this week that a city in Canada (if my memory serves me correctly) has banned them. Now, hardly any pit-bulls actually savage people, even fewer actually kill a human.

A city saw fit to ban them based on the threat that they are a danger to society. After the ban comes into effect do you know how many (legal) pit-bull attacks there will be? I can tell you, there will be none. Zero. Nada. Zip.

I'm certainly not suggesting that the worship of Islam is 'banned' in the US or UK (or anywhere else), but just think about it for a moment. It would, without a doubt, lower if not eradicate these problems on 'home turf', giving each country the option of whether or not they want to pursue these fanatic individuals overseas.

I'm not looking for a sh*t throwing fight with you Heelstone (or you Infinite!), but can you really say that the basic principals of Islam match with the codes recognised by more domestic religions?

HTMB.

[edit on 7-9-2004 by HeyThatsMyBike]

very good point.

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
[However, the title of the topic may be better served by changing it to, "Can RADICAL Islam ever coexist with 'the west'?"

The problem isn't really muslims or christians or whatever, but rather our human nature, whether genetically or socially conditioned. We have a tendency due to psychological factors to encompass the well known "us-and-them-attitude". I mean, people hate and kill each other over politics, religion and even sports. In the case of Islam vs the western world there has been and still are a lot of suspicion and fear born out of ignorance. So I say deny ignorance.

Originally posted by heelstone

Originally posted by smokenmirrors
There is no way Islam can coexist with the West. If it could, the current war between the west, and islam, would not be being fought. This fact alone negates the above quote.

So now the U.S. is engaged in a declared war on islam? I have not seen that proclaimed by any government official yet. All I have witnessed is the U.S. fighting an undeclared "War On Terrorism" centered mainly around the popular term "jihadists". Which seemingly excludes large sections of the actual islamic religion.

[edit on 7-9-2004 by heelstone]

man, if you think the war being played out right now is between snow white and the seven dwarfs, that is your business. but my sight is clear at 44 years old, and i see a war between the west and islam.

can any one come up with a positive contribution from islam since 1200 AD ? They havant and that is why they lothe our life style.

Originally posted by HeyThatsMyBike
I'm not looking for a sh*t throwing fight with you Heelstone (or you Infinite!), but can you really say that the basic principals of Islam match with the codes recognised by more domestic religions?

Yes they can. For example if Christians were to obey everything put down in the Old Testament of the Bible, homosexuals would be killed. While homosexuals are reviled in the United States as a result of this religious decree, they are for the most part tolerated. Fundamentalism of any religion brings trouble as their most basic principals often clash with contemporary civilization.

Obviously muslims living in the U.S. are tolerant of other people, just like the christians here are (seemingly).

[edit on 7-9-2004 by heelstone]

There are many Muslims living in the UK and although on the surface we tolerate them, underneath its a powderkeg slowly being filled.

I feel we will have 20 years tops befor a major ruckus breaks out.