This is the FIRST GLOBAL CIVIL WAR! Globalization is forcing cultures together at too fast a pace to adjust. Islam is but one front, when it quiets down another will open - perhaps Latin Americans, Chinese?

I feel that we are placing too much focus on Islam and not on the forces that are driving Western culture and Islam into conflict. These forces will drive other cultures into brutal conflict. It will be Yugoslavia on steroids with no one to stop it.

Again I state very importantly that this is CIVIL WAR. Treat it as such and then perhaps you may analyze it more clearly. We are in far bigger trouble than most will admit. Historically, what is the pattern of CIVIL WAR? It always ends in brutal crimes against humanity. Yes, I mean GENOCIDE. It is never certain who will win such a conflict, and with WMD, no matter who wins it will make WW2 look very cheap in terms of human misery.

The Genie has left the bottle. It must run its course. Plan for it, expect the worst, it is here.

Originally posted by Old White Russian
I feel that we are placing too much focus on Islam and not on the forces that are driving Western culture and Islam into conflict. These forces will drive other cultures into brutal conflict. It will be Yugoslavia on steroids with no one to stop it.

You have got a very good point Old White Russian,
This has got the makings for Yugoslavia, lets hope we fix this before it gets out of hand.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
HeyThatsMyBike, I have some questions for you. Im glad to see your not afraid to admitt your muslim. Are you of the Islamic faith as well? You made some points in your original post that made you sound like you are a westerner with western ideology. Since you are muslim, maybe you could be the first to help your people. what would you say to starting a movement that protest these acts of terrorism by your extriemest counterparts.

Which brings me to another question. Why have no muslims protested im masse or orginized into a front to rebuke these extriemest actions? Since your Muslim, maybe you could elaborate on this more for me and everyone else who asked this same question on this thread.

Kidfinger,

I am a westener! I've lived in London all of my life and so have both of my parents since being babies. My claims of being Muslim are somewhat tongue in cheek though. I'm originally from a mixed Iranian Jew (very very rare!) and Iranian Muslim background. I practice neither though the Jewish mother means I am a Jew and the Muslim Father means I am a Muslim, go figure!

I have colour though very little. I certainly don't look like your common or garden 'towel head' as you hear said so much these days.

It is the very idea of 'stirring up racial hatred' an intriguing idea (not to do, just the idea), and that is what I was hoping to get through in this post.

I find it all very interesting that there are no real partisan feelings here. There is either the 'kill all muslims as they're all terrorists' brigade or the 'I've got a muslim best friend and would invite one round for tea in a second' brigade.

I'm in the middle I must say, but it's not an easy question to answer.

HTMB

HeyThatsMyBike, got another question for you then. Since you are part Muslum, doesnt it bother you that the extriemest are dulling the general populace's idea of a friendly Muslim? Also, same question as before. You do have muslim blood, so somewhere along your families line, there are full blooded Muslims. I want to know why Muslims are not protesting whats going on? Dont take this the wrong way. Where I live at, the Muslim population is next to nothing. Its either White, Black, or Mexican. I dont have much exposure to any Muslims. So, I am glad to be able to finally ask someone who might be able to give me a better answer than the one I am forced to come up with on my own.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
HeyThatsMyBike, got another question for you then. Since you are part Muslum, doesnt it bother you that the extriemest are dulling the general populace's idea of a friendly Muslim? Also, same question as before. You do have muslim blood, so somewhere along your families line, there are full blooded Muslims. I want to know why Muslims are not protesting whats going on? Dont take this the wrong way. Where I live at, the Muslim population is next to nothing. Its either White, Black, or Mexican. I dont have much exposure to any Muslims. So, I am glad to be able to finally ask someone who might be able to give me a better answer than the one I am forced to come up with on my own.

It's a good question Kidfinger, and one that I can't easily answer for anyone other than myself. My own reason for just getting on as per normal (pre 9/11 days) is that I chose to live my life as non-religious and personally do not feel any need to defend (or attack) anything.

It's a pretty crap explanation I know, but I know plenty of non-practicing Roman Catholics who don't give a monkey's what the Vatican is up to, let alone care enough to approve their actions.

In truth my general apathy to the whole situation is a combination of laziness, lack of understanding and a general feeling of 'business as usual for me'.

With respect to my remaining (alive!) Muslim family, I've never even seen or spoken to any of them. My father had to leave Iran in 1949 after falling in love with a Jew. Suffice to say that the family we're non plussed and sent him packing. He readily accepted and started a new life as a government employee in London doing low-level classified research into money and asset tracking of the IRA. British citizenship for him and my mother was easily fast-tracked and then hey presto, HTMB was born a happy (and religious nutter free) chap.

Sorry not to be more of a 'window into muslim world', but I genuinly just feel like a regular London Joe.

HTMB.

Thanks for the reply man. I appreciate your honesty on this subject. By the way, sorry your family had to go through so much crap just to find peace.

*Edit for spelling*

[edit on 9/8/04 by Kidfinger]

Originally posted by Thinker
in Islam they have this support written in their koran. This explains why terrorism is hot in the middle east. Simply the religion is what breeds it.

They were killing non-believers, that is perfectly fine according to the letter of the law in the Bible. Even god doesn't mind a bit of that action. Extreme circumstances will breed extreme action. The breeding grounds for these extreme groups are the large populations of these generally low standard of living middle east nations. Those who dislike the west typically do due to the percieved (often very real) injustices, abuses and misdealings that have happened (and continue to happen). It just so happens that the populations of these nations mostly follow Islam. It is foolhardy to suggest that if they weren't muslims that the hatred and distrust of the west would not exist. There are plenty of laws in the Bible that could be just as easily subverted to mean that its fine to kill whatever westerner they might like.

That is exactly the problem with the sweeping childish generalisations that politicians like to throw around today to save explaining things to those who are disinterested in the world outside their own borders. People are happy to just go with 'oh they hate us because they are muslim' rather than looking into the more important core reasons behind the hate.

Originally posted by Kano

Originally posted by Thinker
in Islam they have this support written in their koran. This explains why terrorism is hot in the middle east. Simply the religion is what breeds it.

They were killing non-believers, that is perfectly fine according to the letter of the law in the Bible. Even god doesn't mind a bit of that action. Extreme circumstances will breed extreme action. The breeding grounds for these extreme groups are the large populations of these generally low standard of living middle east nations. Those who dislike the west typically do due to the percieved (often very real) injustices, abuses and misdealings that have happened (and continue to happen). It just so happens that the populations of these nations mostly follow Islam. It is foolhardy to suggest that if they weren't muslims that the hatred and distrust of the west would not exist. There are plenty of laws in the Bible that could be just as easily subverted to mean that its fine to kill whatever westerner they might like.

That is exactly the problem with the sweeping childish generalisations that politicians like to throw around today to save explaining things to those who are disinterested in the world outside their own borders. People are happy to just go with 'oh they hate us because they are muslim' rather than looking into the more important core reasons behind the hate.

First of all Muslims when rasised automatically despise christians and jews.

.51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

9.123: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

8.12: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Beaheading teaching last seen in 2004.

Smite the neck of unbelievers
47.4: So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.

Kidnapping teachings, kidnapping until you get your demands.

So in this case we are seen as a low class of people that are depised by islam. As soon as they become muslims there is already distrust, dislike of christians and jews because islam says it. So this poverty, low class problem is not the real cause. They are born to depise the rest of the world. Just look at the above verus.

Imagine i was to attend church since i was 6 and the priest saying and take not muslims as your friends for like 20 years. Do you think i will be really friends with muslims after that? It's brain washing.

Then have more war like teachings and create war for the cause for 20 years? don't you think the straw will come out of the ground after watering it for 20 years?

I think it explains the mentality of these islamic radicals. Luckly most muslims are mooderate and choose to ignore most of these teachings.





[edit on 8-9-2004 by Thinker]

They were killing non-believers, that is perfectly fine according to the letter of the law in the Bible. Even god doesn't mind a bit of that action.

That's a total lie. Jesus said to turn the other chick around, no poke the enemies eye out.

After all this religious talk, I have the impression that US christians do not follow the teachings of Jesus, but rather the teachings of the old testament. Can it be true?

how can you sit there and steryotype, saying muslims have proved thay cannot live in a civilised manner, I have lived in the UK all my life and am more than capable of living in a civilised manner. It was the middle east who provided philosophical, medical, historical, religiuos, astronomical and geographical works written in Arabic during the the islamic civilisation, they have contributed enough to the world whether it be before or after 1200AD. What have you contributed to the world ???
You say muslims have contributed nothing but hate and intolernace, well what has GWB contributed on your behalf I'll tell you.... HATE & INTOLERANCE. Muslims are supposed to be some kind of barbarians, whilst america is really nice and friendly and does its best for the whole world. Yeh right!!!! The 9/11 attacks were carried out by muslims (which nobody can prove, and there is no motive behind), so America being really friendly says we'll have a WAR on "terrorism", so off they go being really civilised and kill loads of innocent people in afghanistan, then because we can't find Osama we just destroy the whole of IRAQ, and not to mention killing loads more people, we also get a nice supply oil, How convenient.
And very civilsed may I add. So the war is on terrorism because killing people is wrong, so can anybody tell me what the difference between the so called Barbaric muslims and GWB is? is he not a terrorist aswell, and is anybody who agrees with him not a terrorist?

[edit on 10-9-2004 by Y2007800100952]

I am very sorry to say, but most of you are very naive, and do not have enough knowlege about muslims and Islam to base a valid and realistic opinion upon.
I suggest that before you copy and paste verses from the koran, (thinking you are really clever) you shoud maybe read the paragraphs before and after the quotations you have made, it will probarbly make much more sense to you if you actually read the whole Koran, rather than trying to disect it, by picking out several lines from the thousands of other quotations, and stringing them together to make sense of them, before you start to make a jugement on what muslims have been tought and are brought up with.
It is being said on numerous occasions that muslims and muslim children are brainwashed to hate christians + Jews, What I have to say to you is how do you know that you have not been brainwashed by the media and the goverment to believe what they're doing is right.
The Media is completely biased, What U see on TV or hear on the radio, or read in the paper, is what you believe, but I think you forget that what you see is only what they want you to see.
Im NOT saying that it wasn't upsetting to watch the 9/11 attack on TV, but we saw it over and over again, and we were continuously reminded how may people were killed, and there is nothing wrong with this, but if you look at it in comparison to the people that were killed in afghanistan and iraq who were also innocent, it is a much much higher figure, but then you wouldn't know that becuase the media did not release that informantion, nor did they show any remorse for all the deceased, or was it ok to kill them all because GWB said it was. A Terrorist is a Terrorist no matter what religion they are. If there was a terrorist who was christian would you kill all the christains because of one person. There are good and bad people in the world and some muslims do bad things and some christians and jews do bad things, but because of their wrong doings you cannot steryotype and say muslims are bad guys because we are not. Yes I agree that Terror is a very wrong thing, by terror we mean killing innocent people so if all those people in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN were killed by GWB then is he a terrorist too.
WAS THIS A WAR ON TERROR, OR WAS THIS JUST ANOTHER FORM OF TERRORISM AND GREED FOR OIL? YOU DECIDE??????????

[edit on 10-9-2004 by Y2007800100952]

[edit on 10-9-2004 by Y2007800100952]

[edit on 10-9-2004 by Y2007800100952]