What if a lost ancient civilization had telescopes and balloons?

Originally posted by Scott Creighton

Incidentally, the orthodox interpretation of this scene at Dendera typically invokes a religious ceremony of Horus being born from a lotus flower. Indeed. (orthodox tend to resort to religious symbolism whenever they really haven't a clue what it is they are looking at).

Wouldn't it be better to just put the translation of the inscriptions next to the images and let the readers decide?

Is this evidence of a hot air balloon in ancient times? I have no idea. But one thing I really DO KNOW - it ain't no lightbulb!

We agree and I would add 'it ain't no balloon' plus isn't that image from 2000 years after the Giza pyramids were made?

PS - Incidentally, calculations show that just one of these ancient balloons with a diameter of 100 feet could easily lift two average limestone blocks of 2.5 ton each used to build the Giza pyramids.

I would note that besides during the periods of wind lapse at sunset and sunrise there is often a steady breeze across the plateau - that might have made handling such balloons rather difficult. The weight of ropes to control them would have greatly reduced their useful load.

Regards

reply to post by Hanslune

Hello Hans,

Long time no hear!

SC:Incidentally, the orthodox interpretation of this scene at Dendera typically invokes a religious ceremony of Horus being born from a lotus flower. Indeed. (orthodox tend to resort to religious symbolism whenever they really haven't a clue what it is they are looking at).

Hans: Wouldn't it be better to just put the translation of the inscriptions next to the images and let the readers decide?

SC: There’s enough key words there to go and google it. Get to it!

SC: Is this evidence of a hot air balloon in ancient times? I have no idea. But one thing I really DO KNOW - it ain't no lightbulb!

Hans: We agree and I would add 'it ain't no balloon' plus isn't that image from 2000 years after the Giza pyramids were made?

SC: Well, of course it is. And I have some contemporary images of the Crucifixion of Christ in a Bible I have. That event was apparently some 2,000 years ago. So – what’s your point?

It may well not be a hot air balloon being depicted at Dendera (though it sure looks like it) but we have to ask, why is the so-called ‘Mirror of Isis’ a large balloon type shape and always depicted with wings?

SC: PS - Incidentally, calculations show that just one of these ancient balloons with a diameter of 100 feet could easily lift two average limestone blocks of 2.5 ton each used to build the Giza pyramids.

Hans: I would note that besides during the periods of wind lapse at sunset and sunrise there is often a steady breeze across the plateau - that might have made handling such balloons rather difficult.

SC: Not necessarily so. You simply tether the balloon and make it a controlled lift.



This is just an example. There could be any number of means to control the ascent.

And using such a device at night would actually be more efficient than during the day due to the greater difference in atmospheric pressure at night.

Hans: The weight of ropes to control them would have greatly reduced their useful load.

SC: Already accounted for in my calculations. A hot air balloon with diameter of 125 feet (1/5 ounce per cubic foot of hot air lift) has a gross lifting weight of 12,783 pounds, i.e. 6.39 tons which is more than adequate for the balloon material, ropes and all - and, of course, two 2.5 ton limestone blocks. Three of such lifting devices could easily be placed at each side of the pyramid = 24 blocks ascending at a time. Not bad!

Best wishes,

Scott Creighton

Originally posted by Scott Creighton


SC: There’s enough key words there to go and google it. Get to it!

Yes its always best to keep contrary information away from those who might see it! I do find it interesting that you'd show the images but not show the inscriptions that go with it, why is that?

SC: Well, of course it is. And I have some contemporary images of the Crucifixion of Christ in a Bible I have. That event was apparently some 2,000 years ago. So – what’s your point?

Is that why you left out the translation of the what the inscriptions say? To make the above more plausible?

That an image from the 5th dynasty might be a bit more compelling that one from the classical age 2,000 years later coupled with an inscription that is religious in nature, just sayin'

It may well not be a hot air balloon being depicted at Dendera (though it sure looks like it) but we have to ask, why is the so-called ‘Mirror of Isis’ a large balloon type shape and always depicted with wings?

]

Why do you consider it balloon shaped?

SC: PS - Incidentally, calculations show that just one of these ancient balloons with a diameter of 100 feet could easily lift two average limestone blocks of 2.5 ton each used to build the Giza pyramids.

Which calculator are you using? And is that for the efficiency of a modern gas heated balloon with synthetic envelope or one that the AE could have constructed?

SC: Not necessarily so. You simply tether the balloon and make it a controlled lift.

You need a system of guide ropes to allow it to ascent to a set point - that is rather difficult, just how high do you think they would take it? How did they get hot air into it? What did they make the hot air with? How did they get it back to the ground? With a 10 kilometer hour breeze just how much pressure must the rope and envelope withstand?

This is just an example. There could be any number of means to control the ascent.

You might want to get the advice of people who deal with balloons on the how to handle multiple controlled lifts with heavy objects in a breeze.

reply to post by Hanslune

Hello Hans,

SC: There’s enough key words there to go and google it. Get to it!

Hans: Yes its always best to keep contrary information away from those who might see it!

SC: What contrary information are you gibbering about? The text that tells us the orthodox interpretation that this is a religious ceremony commemorating the birth of Horus from a lotus bulb? Didn’t I actually mention that already? So – what exactly am I hiding?

Hans: I do find it interesting that you'd show the images but not show the inscriptions that go with it, why is that?

SC: Glad you found it interesting. Now – if you want the full text then do your own research. I don’t do spoonfeeds. I trust you know how to enter key word searches into Google? If there’s something you think I’m holding back from everyone then go get it and let the world know. I’m sure everyone is on tenterhooks waiting for you. Not!

SC: Well, of course it is. And I have some contemporary images of the Crucifixion of Christ in a Bible I have. That event was apparently some 2,000 years ago. So – what’s your point?

Hans: Is that why you left out the translation of the what the inscriptions say? To make the above more plausible?

SC: I know this is a conspiracy site but you take it all to a whole new level.

Hans: That an image from the 5th dynasty might be a bit more compelling that one from the classical age 2,000 years later coupled with an inscription that is religious in nature, just sayin'

SC: And just because I only have an artist’s impression of the Crucifixion 2,000 years later doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Just sayin’ !

SC: It may well not be a hot air balloon being depicted at Dendera (though it sure looks like it) but we have to ask, why is the so-called ‘Mirror of Isis’ a large balloon type shape and always depicted with wings?

Hans: Why do you consider it balloon shaped?

SC: Oh – that’s a toughy! ‘Cause it’s – well, kinda balloon shaped. Does that qualify? Would it help you any if I posted an image of a balloon to let you see the resemblance in shape? Let me know - I'm sure my kids have a couple around somewhere I can take a piccy of for you.

SC: PS - Incidentally, calculations show that just one of these ancient balloons with a diameter of 100 feet could easily lift two average limestone blocks of 2.5 ton each used to build the Giza pyramids.

Hans: Which calculator are you using?

SC: Can’t remember. It was an online one I used years ago. I am very confident though that you will get similar results should you be bothered enough to work it out yourself.

Hans: And is that for the efficiency of a modern gas heated balloon with synthetic envelope or one that the AE could have constructed?

SC: If I recall it was using the heaviest grade of linen presently available. And did I not also mention earlier the 'primitive' balloon made by the Montgolfier brothers? I rather doubt they used synthetics or gas.

SC: Not necessarily so. You simply tether the balloon and make it a controlled lift.

Hans: You need a system of guide ropes to allow it to ascent to a set point - that is rather difficult, just how high do you think they would take it? How did they get hot air into it? What did they make the hot air with? How did they get it back to the ground? With a 10 kilometer hour breeze just how much pressure must the rope and envelope withstand?

SC: None of which is insurmountable.

SC: This is just an example. There could be any number of means to control the ascent.

Hans: You might want to get the advice of people who deal with balloons on the how to handle multiple controlled lifts with heavy objects in a breeze.

SC: Perhaps I might if I can be bothered – help flesh it out a bit. Not on my list of priorities though.

Best wishes,

Scott Creighton

Originally posted by Scott Creighton
The snakes enclosed in the 'balloon' shapes in the images above could symbolise the AE goddess Amaunet - the Goddess of Air. This goddess may also be depicted sitting atop the stone block on the far right of the upper image although this could also be the god (Heh - also an air god identified with Shu).

They could, except the Egyptians actually tell us they represent Horus.

Myself, I'll take the word of the people that came up with the myth over someone's preferred interpretation conceived 3,000 years later.

Harte

Ah! There you are!

Originally posted by Scott Creighton
SC: The snakes enclosed in the 'balloon' shapes in the images above could symbolise the AE goddess Amaunet - the Goddess of Air. This goddess may also be depicted sitting atop the stone block on the far right of the upper image although this could also be the god (Heh - also an air god identified with Shu).

Harte: They could, except the Egyptians actually tell us they represent Horus.

SC: And it is perfectly understandable why a hot air balloon might be identified with Horus. He was, afterall, the AE god of the sky.

Harte: Myself, I'll take the word of the people that came up with the myth over someone's preferred interpretation conceived 3,000 years later.

SC: Actually, the "word of the people" is only how modern orthodox Egyptology has interpreted the writings of the AE people. It is not possible to know exactly how accurate modern interpretations of these texts are.

Best wishes,

Scott Creighton

Originally posted by Scott Creighton
SC: Actually, the "word of the people" is only how modern orthodox Egyptology has interpreted the writings of the AE people. It is not possible to know exactly how accurate modern interpretation of these texts are.

Best wishes,

Scott Creighton

So now you claim that the "Mainstream" can't read the word "Horus" in Hieroglyphics?

What about all the other references to Horus throughout the ages? Balloons too?

Do you believe the "Mainstream" knows nothing about Greek as well? After all, the Dendera Temple uses the term "Harsomtus." Harsomtus is the Greek name for Horus (actually, for one of Horus' many names.).

Unless, that is, you wish to claim that Harsomtus means "balloon" in Greek.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by Scott Creighton
SC: Actually, the "word of the people" is only how modern orthodox Egyptology has interpreted the writings of the AE people. It is not possible to know exactly how accurate modern interpretation of these texts are.

Best wishes,

Scott Creighton

So now you claim that the "Mainstream" can't read the word "Horus" in Hieroglyphics?

What about all the other references to Horus throughout the ages? Balloons too?

Do you believe the "Mainstream" knows nothing about Greek as well? After all, the Dendera Temple uses the term "Harsomtus." Harsomtus is the Greek name for Horus (actually, for one of Horus' many names.).

Unless, that is, you wish to claim that Harsomtus means "balloon" in Greek.

Harte

Strawman. Irrelevant. Stay on topic.

These Dendera reliefs depict what could reasonably be interpreted as hot air balloons being inflated (the big horizontal 'balloons'). It then presents the same 'balloons' in a vertical alignment but in a much smaller scale as though they are flying away (at a different perspective). The relief(s) are crowded with gods/godesses of the air and Horus, the AE god of the sky. The texts alongside speak of the "sky carriers".

I don't consider it an unreasonable interpretation of this relief as a hot air balloon. Could be entirely wrong (and I have already conceded that) but this idea just kinda tickles me because I know hidebound folks like yourself will be tripping over yourselves to try and crush such ideas - it's what you like to do. Which is fair enough but not before I have my fun with you first!!

Best wishes,

Scott Creighton

reply to post by FugitiveSoul


concider this , we have the east and west undergoing conflicts between each other at the present .
and the west is technologicaly more advanced than the east .
if there is a full scale war between the east and west it is more than a fair bet that the west would win , or is it ?

now supose that our planet has reached a level of technological advancement in our distant past and the east was more advanced than the west .

then a war broke out between us and the east lost and was knocked back almost into the stone age .
a sort of role reversable situation.
this could have happened many times in our earths history.

take for example acupuncture and mathematics surely these are not things that a so called primitive culture could have invented or discovered .

I remember a documentary about a dig on the west coast of South America somewhere.

The scientists were all excited about the discovery of some exquisite stone artifacts and were heatedly debating the religious significance of one of the objects when one of the locals came up to them and politely asked if he could have it when they were done with it as it was much better than his.

The astounded scientists asked if he knew what it was and which god it represented.

He looked at them with a rather stunned and suspicious look, obviously wondering if they were pulling his leg. When he realized they were serious, the look changed to that given ignorant children as he pulled a nearly identical tool from his back pocket and gently informed them it was a fishnet mending tool with no religious significance whatsoever.

That episode taught me a valuable lesson in interpreting past artifacts. People of a religious bent will always look first to those aspects and interpret the world accordingly, and usually incorrectly.

But sometimes it's just a kid's doll or toy, not a goddess figure or votive offering. And sometimes it's just a cool house, not a temple.

Originally posted by Scott Creighton
Strawman. Irrelevant. Stay on topic.

My post was absolutely on topic. After all, it was you that brought up the reliefs.

Originally posted by Scott Creighton
These Dendera reliefs depict what could reasonably be interpreted as hot air balloons being inflated (the big horizontal 'balloons'). It then presents the same 'balloons' in a vertical alignment but in a much smaller scale as though they are flying away (at a different perspective). The relief(s) are crowded with gods/godesses of the air and Horus, the AE god of the sky. The texts alongside speak of the "sky carriers".

In fact, the text makes no mention of this at all.

However, in the relief carving can be seen the usual representation of Heh (aka Huh,) the carrier of the sky. He's the little guy sitting on top of the rectangle with the disc on his head.

Apparently, you need to turn this into "sky carriers" in order to fringe up a perfectly understood relief meant to celebrate a handful of festivals.

Heh is one of the gods that holds up the sky - thus "the sky carrier."

As well as being a god of time and infinity, he was also an air god. Identified with Shu, Heh was a god of the wind who was linked to the four pillars that held up the sky. Like Shu, he was sometimes shown with his arms raised to help hold up the sky.

Source

The depiction of him in that relief, IIRC, involves not this duty but the typical festive wish bestowed on festival goers, important people and rulers, i.e.:

The god's image and its iconographical elements reflected the wish for 'millions of years' of life or rule; as such, the figure of Ḥeḥ finds frequent representation in amulets, prestige items and royal iconography from the late Old Kingdom period onwards.

Source

Harte

Well Scott the reason you left off the inscription was because it wouldn't fit your need to make the orthodox opinion appear invalid. This is a poor example of scholarship and an attempt at deception on your part; we know that, you know that, and the people reading this know that.

Now to balloons. What happens to a tethered round balloon in a wind?

It spins

Look at world war I tethered observation balloons, note the tapered length - you will now claim the image shows a tapered balloon, yes the image is tapered but, and this is important, it has no tail. It would spin too




It is also rather obvious you have not lived for long period in Cairo. Being at the edge of a desert it is ---- windy, that wind is called the شلوق shlūq, sometimes referred to as the sirocco, a dry, gusty, hot dusty wind that comes off the desert.

The average wind speed in cairo is between 5.5 to 6.5 ms

I noted too that you didn't response to how they lowered the balloons and how they got hot air and no embers into a linen balloon.

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by Scott Creighton
Strawman. Irrelevant. Stay on topic.

My post was absolutely on topic. After all, it was you that brought up the reliefs.

SC: The reliefs at Dendera - which indeed I raised - are, in my opinion, relevant to the OP. Your ramblings about Horus' Greek name are not.

Originally posted by Scott Creighton
These Dendera reliefs depict what could reasonably be interpreted as hot air balloons being inflated (the big horizontal 'balloons'). It then presents the same 'balloons' in a vertical alignment but in a much smaller scale as though they are flying away (at a different perspective). The relief(s) are crowded with gods/godesses of the air and Horus, the AE god of the sky. The texts alongside speak of the "sky carriers".

Harte: In fact, the text makes no mention of this at all.

However, in the relief carving can be seen the usual representation of Heh (aka Huh,) the carrier of the sky. He's the little guy sitting on top of the rectangle with the disc on his head.

Apparently, you need to turn this into "sky carriers" in order to fringe up a perfectly understood relief meant to celebrate a handful of festivals.

SC: Perfectly understood - I'm sure - inasmuch as mainstream Egyptology think they understand such texts. Doesn't mean they actually understand what is being potrayed in the relief.

Harte: Heh is one of the gods that holds up the sky - thus "the sky carrier."

SC: We know this. And he is presented alongside an object ('balloon') that could conceivably be associated with being 'carried' into the sky by the 'sky carrier'.



If you think this scene is in no way similar to a hot air balloon being inflated (horizontal images) and then being carried off into the sky by Heh, the 'sky carrier' (vertical images) then you are simply kidding yourself. The entire scene and associated texts/gods scream at us of such an interpretation.

Best wishes,

Scott Creighton

reply to post by Hanslune


Dear, dear Hans,

Hans: This is a poor example of scholarship and an attempt at deception on your part; we know that, you know that, and the people reading this know that.

SC: If you can't attack the theory, attack the author. I get it as I am sure most reading this thread will. Alas, you ought to know me better by now - I don't respond to ad hominems. If you can't fight fairly then get out the ring.

And wash your mouth out with soap.

Best wishes,

Scott Creighton

Then of course, there is this:

www.nott.com...

A writer by the name of Jim Woodman believes that the lines and figures could not have been made without somebody in the air to direct the operations. "You simply can't see anything from ground level," states Woodman. "You can't appreciate any of it from anywhere except from above. You can't tell me the Nazca builders would have gone to the monumental efforts they did without ever being able to see it."

Woodman has proposed that ancient hot-air balloons were used to get an aerial view of the construction. To prove his hypothesis, Woodman constructed a balloon using materials that would have been available to the Nazca people. He was able to conduct a successful flight, though it only lasted two minutes.

www.unmuseum.org...

I think that creating a hot air balloon isn't that hard once you get the idea, and once you see a piece of ash lift off a fire, the idea isn't that hard to come by.

So an ancient hot air balloon is probably more likely than not. History isn't linear: it sends out tendrils every which way.

Originally posted by Scott Creighton
If you think this scene is in no way similar to a hot air balloon being inflated (horizontal images) and then being carried off into the sky by Heh, the 'sky carrier' (vertical images) then you are simply kidding yourself. The entire scene and associated texts/gods scream at us of such an interpretation.

Best wishes,

Scott Creighton

It is more similar to a condom being filled for use as a water ballon, but I see you haven't reached that point.

Yet.

Heh holds up the sky. He carries the sky itself.

If you need an Egyptian god to "carry" things that are in the sky, you'll need to look elsewhere.

Heh is also the symbol for one million, a quantity congruent to infinity to the Ancient Egyptians. That's context, something of which you appear to have no understanding.

Harte

Originally posted by apacheman
Then of course, there is this:

www.nott.com...

A writer by the name of Jim Woodman believes that the lines and figures could not have been made without somebody in the air to direct the operations. "You simply can't see anything from ground level," states Woodman. "You can't appreciate any of it from anywhere except from above. You can't tell me the Nazca builders would have gone to the monumental efforts they did without ever being able to see it."

Woodman has proposed that ancient hot-air balloons were used to get an aerial view of the construction. To prove his hypothesis, Woodman constructed a balloon using materials that would have been available to the Nazca people. He was able to conduct a successful flight, though it only lasted two minutes.

www.unmuseum.org...

I think that creating a hot air balloon isn't that hard once you get the idea, and once you see a piece of ash lift off a fire, the idea isn't that hard to come by.

So an ancient hot air balloon is probably more likely than not. History isn't linear: it sends out tendrils every which way.

Icould agree with all of the above, were it not for the fact that there is no line or figure at Nazca that cannot be seen from nearby hillsides.

Harte

Originally posted by Scott Creighton
If you think this scene is in no way similar to a hot air balloon being inflated (horizontal images) and then being carried off into the sky by Heh, the 'sky carrier' (vertical images) then you are simply kidding yourself. The entire scene and associated texts/gods scream at us of such an interpretation.

Best wishes,

Scott Creighton

Harte: It is more similar to a condom being filled for use as a water ballon, but I see you haven't reached that point.

Yet.

SC: Well now - there's a thought. They do go from a down position to an up position! Hmmm... but then, I somewhat doubt the 'sky carrier' would be chucking ancient condoms about the sky, do you? But at least you recognise the balloon shape.

Harte: Heh holds up the sky. He carries the sky itself.

If you need an Egyptian god to "carry" things that are in the sky, you'll need to look elsewhere.

SC: Nuances.

Harte: Heh is also the symbol for one million, a quantity congruent to infinity to the Ancient Egyptians. That's context, something of which you appear to have no understanding.

SC: The context is 'balloons' being raised from horizontal to vertical in order that they can take to the skies. Which gods might the AEs consider could conceivably assist them in such an enterprise? Yes, Horus - god of the sky and Heh, god of the air. That he has other attributes and responsibilities is of little consequence to his role in this relief of raising and holding hot air balloons in the sky.

Slam dunk!

Best wishes,

Scott Creighton

Originally posted by Scott Creighton
SC: The context is 'balloons' being raised from horizontal to vertical in order that they can take to the skies. Which gods might the AEs consider could conceivably assist them in such an enterprise? Yes, Horus - god of the sky and Heh, god of the air. That he has other attributes and responsibilities is of little consequence to his role in this relief of raising and holding hot air balloons in the sky.

Slam dunk!

A slam dunk resulting in your finally losing the only operating brain cell you had.

The only way your claim could even be considered is if you completely and utterly ignore what it says right there on the walls of those chambers. BTW, people that can read will notice that you claimed that the texts on those walls mention "sky carriers," which (of course) they do not.

Of course, followers of your "work" already know you have no problem ignoring pertinant, yet inconvenient (for you,) facts while liberally manufacturing falsehoods for your own use.

I'll give you a few hours to make up some other falsehood about Dendera. I'd recommend something along the lines of epoxy glue, or possibly a propane burner.

Harte

Originally posted by Scott Creighton
SC: The context is 'balloons' being raised from horizontal to vertical in order that they can take to the skies. Which gods might the AEs consider could conceivably assist them in such an enterprise? Yes, Horus - god of the sky and Heh, god of the air. That he has other attributes and responsibilities is of little consequence to his role in this relief of raising and holding hot air balloons in the sky.

Slam dunk!

Harte: A slam dunk resulting in your finally losing the only operating brain cell you had.

SC: Oh deary, deary. Not you too! There is absolutely no need to resort to ad hominems, now is there? Attempting to belittle people only belittles yourself and serves only to demonstrate weakness in your argument. You're an intelligent person so you ought to know and understand that. So, any more of that silliness and I shall have to take the toilet brush to your mouth!

Harte: The only way your claim could even be considered is if you completely and utterly ignore what it says right there on the walls of those chambers.

SC: Or what Egyptologists THINK they say and mean. Two different things. If it had been known, for example, that hot air balloons had been around since, say, 3,000 BCE, I doubt Egyptologists would have had any difficulty in considering the balloon hypothesis with regard to the Dendera reliefs as a possible if not probable explanation of them. The problem is, because our present historical paradigm does not permit the invention of manmade hot air balloon flights until the 18th century CE, they can't even think in such terms let alone say anything remotely 'outlandish'. "Oops - there goes the research grant!"

Harte: BTW, people that can read will notice that you claimed that the texts on those walls mention "sky carriers," which (of course) they do not.

SC: "Sky carriers" - "carrier of the sky" - splitting hairs. People might notice but I rather suspect most wouldn't give a hee-haw.

Harte: Of course, followers of your "work" already know you have no problem ignoring pertinant, yet inconvenient (for you,) facts ...

SC: No - rather it is people such as your fine self that ignore pertinent facts. You were once of the camp that believed and propogated the silly notion that the Giza Pyramids were wrongly oriented with respect to north and the Orion Belt stars. You may remember that discussion on the other board. Eventually I managed to demonstrate to you how your view was wrong. After that you simply took the huff and put me on your ignore list. I guess some people would rather just ignore the truth when it doesn't suit them, eh?

Harte:....while liberally manufacturing falsehoods for your own use.

SC: Oh puh-leeeeeez! Get a grip of your nickers and stop with this silliness. You are much better than this, Harte.

Harte: I'll give you a few hours to make up some other falsehood about Dendera. I'd recommend something along the lines of epoxy glue, or possibly a propane burner.

SC: I shall ignore this silliness. Only because I understand that it is hard to accept an alternative interpretation of something you believed for years to be the only plausible interpretation. But don't worry - it's only a hypothesis. No need to get your nickers in such a royal twist.

Best wishes,

Scott Creighton