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Originally posted by Scott Creighton
reply to post by Hanslune
Dear, dear Hans,
Hans: This is a poor example of scholarship and an attempt at deception on your part; we know that, you know that, and the people reading this know that.
SC: If you can't attack the theory, attack the author. I get it as I am sure most reading this thread will. Alas, you ought to know me better by now - I don't respond to ad hominems. If you can't fight fairly then get out the ring.
Originally posted by tom.farnhill
reply to post by Harte
there is no mystery in the nasca lines , it was done using the three staff system.
by lining up the three staffs in a line and sighting them the same as you would do with the sights on a rifle,
using this system you can obtain perfectly straight lines that could go on for miles .
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
reply to post by Hanslune
Dear, dear Hans,
Hans: This is a poor example of scholarship and an attempt at deception on your part; we know that, you know that, and the people reading this know that.
SC: If you can't attack the theory, attack the author. I get it as I am sure most reading this thread will. Alas, you ought to know me better by now - I don't respond to ad hominems. If you can't fight fairly then get out the ring.
Hans: Sorry old man I was attacking your faulty scholarly technique, which is fair game my friend, and I so I mentioned it : Perhaps we should call your idea
'Dicta scotta'. This would be when presenting an image and stating that it means 'x' it is acceptable not to show the inscription associated with it, its interpretation, while also stating said orthodox translation is silly'
Hans: Now to balloons: Here is the problem one has with round balloons - they spin in a wind ...
Hans: ....but your idea has a worse problem. If your balloon ascends - what good does it do them?
Hans: The shape of the pyramid - of course rises away from them. So they would now need a guiding mechanism (rope) to draw then over to align with the slope of the pyramid.
Hans: Now what happens to a round balloon held by two ropes? Yep it spins on its axis- but wait you have it lifting a heavy weight, which will cause it not to spin. This will create a great deal of strain on where the two ropes attach.
Hans: Now as you don't appear to have any balloon experience I leave you with a thought: think sailing ships and the power of the wind.
Perhaps you should speak to people who do ballooning and work with tethered balloons - there is a reason people haven't used this method of carrying stuff up.
Hans: Let us say the balloon has been gotten up, then dragged over so it can drop it load on the pryamid - how does the balloon get down? Either deflate or winch it down - which did the Egyptians do?
But judge for yourself:
Complete text of the south wall:
Bandeau de la frise:
Resomtus is alive with gloss in the sky (and) lives at the day of the New Year celebration. He lights up in its house in the night of the child in his nest, by donating the light to the country from the birth bricks. The sky is jubilant, the earth is pleased and the God chapels is glad, when he appears in his chamber in his procession barge at his beautiful celebration of the New Year.
The God with his disk has come to see him. Nehebkau gives him reputation, and the goddess with her disk, with godly body, rejuvenates him in his sanctuary.
Tchnt tpjt jnr (probably the goddess Thoeeris, a birth goddess) is content because of her majesty. She praises Re because of him with praise for his Ka, with wine from schfjt (wine area) and meat bits on the altar before him.
The "land-of-Atum" (= Dendera) is prepared with his most distinguished plan, as Hu and Sia are subordinated to him. He may protect the son of Re (empty king cartouche), forever.
Title of the south wall:
Bringing of the amuletts (Pektoral) made of gold.
Speak: To speak words: This is the protection of your majesty for the celebration, in ktmt gold.
Ihi: Words to speak of Ihi, the great, the son of the Hathor, the noble child with shining plait: I please your heart with glories for your person, and I drive rage out with spells.
King: The king of upper and lower Egypt (cartouche with the name of Ptolemaeus XII.), the son of Re (cartouche with another name of the same king).
Royal edge line
I came to you, to your place (destroyed section). Beautiful one, whose looks are perfect. I have the Amulet of gold (destroyed section) attached with live on the day of the celebration (destroyed section) of your body.
Isis: Words to speak of Isis, the great, the gods mother, lady of jat dj, who stays in Dendera, the beginning with whose arrival the earth began, turquoise skin and lapislazuli like head.
Harsomtus: Words to speak of Harsomtus, the great god who stays in Dendera. Gold, height: 4 hands. Made of metal the Day barge, the lotos flower from gold (this section is about the statues kept here, which were brought upward (room G)).
Harsomtus: Words to speak of Harsomtus, the great God, who stays in Dendera, the multicolored-feathered who is on the Serech. Gold. Height: 1 cubit. (the falcon on the relief is meant)
Ihi: Words to speak of Ihi, the great, the son of the Hathor, Re in its shape of the great God, who appears with the diadem as a king of jztj (Egypt)and as a master of the Sed festival,: You reign Dendera millionfold from the nhh eternity to the completion of the Djed eternity. Gold. Height: 1 cubit.
Harsomtus: Words to speak of Harsomtus, the great, who stays in Dendera, the living Ba in the Lotus flower of the day barge, whose perfection the two arms of the Djed pillar carry as its seschemw picture, while the Ka's on its knees are with bent arms. Gold. All precious stones, height: 3 hands.
Harsomtus: Words to speak of Harsomtus, the great, who stays in Dendera, who is in the arms of the princes in the night barge, the noble snake, whose chntj statue carries Heh, whose crew carries his perfection in holyness, because of whose Ba the appearing (Hathor) in the sky appeared, whose shape is admired by admirers, who comes as unique, enveloped by his head serpents, with numerous names at the point of chw.n=sn (Gods with relationship with the Hathor), the sechm-picture of Re in the "Land-Of-Atum" (= Dendera), the father of the Gods, who created everything. Gold, metal, height: 4 hands.
Isis: Words to speak of Isis, the great, mother of the Gods, lady of jat dj, who stays in Dendera, the queen of the rchjt people, with pointed horns.
Edge line of the Gods
Come in peace, servant of his Lord, as the chw djeser priests are subordinated to you, and you protect my throat with your trusty behavior. I have myself pleased about the freshness of your character. Gold. Height: 1 cubit.
Except no one but orthodox Egyptologists have said "...it means x...", have they?
All that I have said is that the relief in the Temple of Hathor at Dendera could plausibly be interpreted as inflating a hot air balloon. Show me where I have insisted that my visual interpretation is correct?
And what would be the point in presenting the inscription associated with this relief?
How many exactly on this Forum could read the hieroglyphs?
Don't be so damned absurd! And as for the orthodox translation of the relief - I did state it. Go back and look
SC: Except they do not have to be round (spherical) balloons - virtually any envelope shape with sufficient cubic volume would do. The reliefs in Dendera do not look like spherical balloons, do they?
Again - it doesn't have to be a spherical balloon. The method of attaching the load would not be an insurmountable problem. These people were excellent engineers.
SC: Yes, because in modern times we have cranes which are much more efficient at this particular task. Doesn't mean the pyramid builders couldn't have found a way to make hot air balloons work. Some small ramps from the quarries to the lifting site near the base of the pyramid. Some round holes around the pyramid base for anchor posts. Some deep pits around the base of the pyramid to create a furnace for the hot air. Any of this sound familliar?
SC: See my diagram.
And thanks for washing your mouth out.
SC: Except no one but orthodox Egyptologists have said "...it means x...", have they?
Hans: Yes thanks for observing the obvious, lol, others have translated in other ways, mainly the light bulb people.
SC: All that I have said is that the relief in the Temple of Hathor at Dendera could plausibly be interpreted as inflating a hot air balloon. Show me where I have insisted that my visual interpretation is correct?
Hans: Okay then you are now saying you are wrong –
SC: And what would be the point in presenting the inscription associated with this relief?
Hans: So people would know what the people who made the image said about it– you know – common sense scholarship, ie showing the entire image, and what the writing on it says….
SC: How many exactly on this Forum could read the hieroglyphs?
Hans: Scott please stop playing dumb, lol. You know I meant a translation.
Hans: But showing the full image with the inscription is helpful. You will note above I posted the full image not the cropped one
SC: Don't be so damned absurd! And as for the orthodox translation of the relief - I did state it. Go back and look
Hans: Did you now – I just put up the entire translation and it took a full page and you have been insisting that you had no need to do so???
SC: Again - it doesn't have to be a spherical balloon. The method of attaching the load would not be an insurmountable problem. These people were excellent engineers.
Hans: Then why did you give up round mirrors with wings as ‘proof’ of balloons? The one image you have is an oblong shape-that would be unstable without fins – why no fins?
SC: Yes, because in modern times we have cranes which are much more efficient at this particular task. Doesn't mean the pyramid builders couldn't have found a way to make hot air balloons work. Some small ramps from the quarries to the lifting site near the base of the pyramid. Some round holes around the pyramid base for anchor posts. Some deep pits around the base of the pyramid to create a furnace for the hot air. Any of this sound familliar?
Hans: You avoided the question, the question is why don’t you get the expert opinion of those who work with balloons – they should be able to give you an accurate description of what would occur in a wind with your idea
SC: See my diagram.
Hans: My apologies, I missed that you were using it as lift-drag. Now you need to address the affect of wind on this methodology. If you have a wind from the west; the balloon the west side will be pushed into the pyramid, the two on the north and south will be canted to the east and the one to east will be pushed away. You also failed to address what occurs in gusty weather, which is very common on the Giza plateau. You again need to address the forces of sheer against tethered balloons versus a wind.
When operating a crane, guy wires known as tag lines may be connected to unwieldy payloads, allowing ground crew to control rotation and swaying while maintaining a safe distance. – source.
SC: And thanks for washing your mouth out.
Hans: I didn’t because I was speaking the truth….which must sounds odd to you
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
reply to post by Hanslune
SC: Never heard of guy-ropes?
SC: You accused me of deception – a blatant lie. So yes – it is odd that you claim to speak the truth. So, as I told you before – go and wash your mouth out.
reply to post by Scott Creighton
] Hello Hans,
SC: Nice to see that you were able to Google Frank D’s site. It wasn’t so difficult was it? Just as it wouldn’t have been for anyone else who might have wished to see the full translated texts.
SC: But you keep missing the point – there is a mighty big difference between interpreting (i.e. transliterating) texts and knowing what they are actually meaning. We can have the words (or most of them) and still have little idea of the meaning behind those words. You only have to look at the mess Egyptologists get themselves into in trying to understand the Pyramid Texts to see what I mean.
SC: No – absolutely not, though I could be. And so could Egyptology in its feeble attempts to understand the meaning of these reliefs at Dendera.
SC: And what would be the point in presenting the inscription associated with this relief?
Wouldn't it be better to just put the translation of the inscriptions next to the images and let the readers decide?
SC: Well that’s nice of you. But it changes nothing.
Hans: Did you now – I just put up the entire translation and it took a full page and you have been insisting that you had no need to do so???
SC: So what! They may well have had hot air balloons of different shapes, for different purposes. Why do you think the so-called ‘Mirror of Isis’is – almost without exception – shown with wings?
SC: And I answered that question earlier in the thread. If I can be bothered I might just do that.
SC: Never heard of guy-ropes?
Hans: Yes but you don't seem to have; you would need four to have any chance of controlling the balloon, and they need to be strong enough to hold it against a gust. As the pyramid is approximately 145 meters high you'd need four guide ropes of at least 325 meters in lenght (towards the end of construction) not to count the the work rope.
Hans: So about 1.5 kilometers of rope - at least a six inch hawser might hold, care to guess the weight of all that?
Hans: Oh and since you are using a drag lift that means you have increase the load by the weight of the sledge and the of lost x 4 efficiency - this means you will need 20 tons of lift - not counting the guide rope weight and the weight of the heavy reinforcement to secure those heavy guide ropes to the linen balloon....but wait to lift that amount of weight you now need to greatly increase the size of the balloon which will then require bigger guide ropes and more reinforcement. Additionally you now have bigger balloon and more surface area to be affected by wind...bit of a problem eh?
Hans: You appear to not understand the affects of wind on balloons - I would suggest you look at the history of early airships and what the disasters they endured when the tried to fight the wind.
SC: You accused me of deception – a blatant lie. So yes – it is odd that you claim to speak the truth. So, as I told you before – go and wash your mouth out.
Hans: Really Scott your 'leaving' out the inscription was deception, plain and simple,…
Hans:… you did so with malice and forethought, lol.
It didn't support your contention so you discarded it. Good for fringe adversial truth but very bad for real scientific truth.
SC: Nice to see that you were able to Google Frank D’s site. It wasn’t so difficult was it? Just as it wouldn’t have been for anyone else who might have wished to see the full translated texts.
Hans: Lol, still trying to justify your leaving out the inscription and translation Scott? Again why did you leave off the translation of the cropped photo you used to try and convince people it was of a ‘balloon’?
SC: But you keep missing the point – there is a mighty big difference between interpreting (i.e. transliterating) texts and knowing what they are actually meaning. We can have the words (or most of them) and still have little idea of the meaning behind those words. You only have to look at the mess Egyptologists get themselves into in trying to understand the Pyramid Texts to see what I mean.
Hans: Lol, a guy who cannot read AE ….
Hans: ….is saying all the translations are wrong,
Hans: ….except of course for those that you use to support ‘your Giza plan from [unknown place but originally Atlantis]’ idea
Hans: Why are those correct but all others – that you don’t like, are wrong?
SC: No – absolutely not, though I could be. And so could Egyptology in its feeble attempts to understand the meaning of these reliefs at Dendera.
Hans: In your humble opinion but I’d believe them over a guy who cannot read them and thinks art work showing a religious concept in a temple is actually the use of a balloon from 2,000 years before this image was made? You did read what the AE wrote didn't you? On what pretext do you ignore what they say?
SC: And what would be the point in presenting the inscription associated with this relief?
Hans: Sorry no you said
SC: Incidentally, the orthodox interpretation of this scene at Dendera typically invokes a religious ceremony of Horus being born from a lotus flower. Indeed. (orthodox tend to resort to religious symbolism whenever they really haven't a clue what it is they are looking at).
Hans: I said. Wouldn't it be better to just put the translation of the inscriptions next to the images and let the readers decide?
Hans: The full uncropped image of the Dendera image
SC: Well that’s nice of you. But it changes nothing.
Hans: Actually it does,
Hans: …it shows you used a cropped photo to leave out those parts that didn’t support your story – and especially the inscriptions...why was that again?
Hans: Did you now – I just put up the entire translation and it took a full page and you have been insisting that you had no need to do so???
Hans: Do the translations of the inscription support your contention of a ‘balloon’? What by the way is the hieroglyph of a balloon? I mean they must have used balloons for generations to put up those pyramids but never came up with a sign for it? Oh in the workers village what is the title of the guy who runs the balloons?
SC: So what! They may well have had hot air balloons of different shapes, for different purposes. Why do you think the so-called ‘Mirror of Isis’is – almost without exception – shown with wings?
Hans: Because that is how the AE represented her. You mean you think - without evidence - that they had different types of balloons
SC: And I answered that question earlier in the thread. If I can be bothered I might just do that.
Hans: So Scott still refuse to obtain expert advice and knowledge on handling balloons? No point in getting real information, eh? Easier to stick to the stuff you make up. You really, really don't understand the difficulties of working with tethered balloons in a wind nor the implications of using lift to drag stones up a ramp.
Hans: Oh! Now that you have a full copy of the translations – you have no reason to not go thru it line by line and show how it supports your contentions of the AE using balloons. Isn't that just a fine idea?