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Do teachers have the authority to search you?

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posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 01:48 PM
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Well, basically there was a fight in my sons school, and like any other person, he got out his phone and started recording. Soon after, the teachers had him come to the office and his phone confiscated and searched. They found the video of the fight and deleted it - i'm fine for this much. But then, they checked all his other videos and pictures and even his texts. This infuriates me, why do teachers show so much authority over students? and i thought you needed a warrant to search someones phone?




posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by GLaDOS
Well, basically there was a fight in my sons school, and like any other person, he got out his phone and started recording. Soon after, the teachers had him come to the office and his phone confiscated and searched. They found the video of the fight and deleted it - i'm fine for this much. But then, they checked all his other videos and pictures and even his texts. This infuriates me, why do teachers show so much authority over students? and i thought you needed a warrant to search someones phone?


Not sure they have the right to search through your personal business, like going through your phone but they do have he right to take away items that are not allowed in school. They can easily have the police do the search to make it legal, that would have been the approach I would have taken.



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 01:59 PM
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You shouldn't be allowed phones in school in the first place.

But no teachers should not have the right to snoop through your phone



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 02:00 PM
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reply to post by JessopJessopJessop
 


In my sons school, phones are allowed..



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 02:00 PM
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reply to post by mileslong54
 

Not sure they have the right to search through your personal business, like going through your phone but they do have he right to take away items that are not allowed in school. They can easily have the police do the search to make it legal, that would have been the approach I would have taken.

Actually, I think you have this more backwards than anything.

I don't believe the police would have ANY justification to look through the phone unless there were probable cause that a crime had taken place, the kid was being arrested, or there was a warrant for evidence that might be in the phone itself.

As far as the school searching it - private entities aren't governed under the 4th amendment (a fun loophole authorities like to use to get various outside people to snoop for them at times). If it's a public school taking federal dollars, I'm not sure if that changes the game and brings the 4th into the picture, but otherwise I think you'd have to check with an attorney for any possible recourse. I can't see how the school is legally JUSTIFIED in snooping through the phone otherwise, but I can't see any constitutional privacy applications about it beyond what would apply for any other private citizen snooping through your stuff.



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 02:04 PM
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Originally posted by Praetorius
reply to post by mileslong54
 

Not sure they have the right to search through your personal business, like going through your phone but they do have he right to take away items that are not allowed in school. They can easily have the police do the search to make it legal, that would have been the approach I would have taken.

Actually, I think you have this more backwards than anything.

I don't believe the police would have ANY justification to look through the phone unless there were probable cause that a crime had taken place, the kid was being arrested, or there was a warrant for evidence that might be in the phone itself.

As far as the school searching it - private entities aren't governed under the 4th amendment (a fun loophole authorities like to use to get various outside people to snoop for them at times). If it's a public school taking federal dollars, I'm not sure if that changes the game and brings the 4th into the picture, but otherwise I think you'd have to check with an attorney for any possible recourse. I can't see how the school is legally JUSTIFIED in snooping through the phone otherwise, but I can't see any constitutional privacy applications about it beyond what would apply for any other private citizen snooping through your stuff.



Where I work, (public school), the police can search lockers, backpacks, computer accounts, phones and I have seen them do all of the above all in the name of drugs or domestic terrorism..... example... Columbine
edit on 5-12-2011 by mileslong54 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 02:05 PM
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No they do not, but if your child is asked to hand the phone over to the teacher and he complies, then he is consenting to it. It is personal property, they could remove it until the end of the day perhaps then give it back, but no, not allowed to decide what your son may and may not look at, i think they call it "censorship" i am sure there is a much more snappy name for it nowadays though!.



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 02:05 PM
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Wow.... Now that is interesting. When I first saw your headline I was thinking to myself this would be another thread about a drug using kid or some other form of mini-criminal getting busted and bagged at his school... Well,,, don't go to school with illegal things and one won't get searched and bagged for it.


THIS though.... I'm speechless. Exactly where do they think their authority comes from to seize, search and delete video of a PUBLIC event in PUBLIC VIEW? This is just outrageous at a whole new level. Not only to they DESTROY HIS PROPERTY (That video was property alright...ask a Paparazzi who makes his living from videos of that nature about the definition of property) but they go on a fishing expedition for whatever else may catch their eye. WRONG I say..CRIMINALLY Wrong, I'd like to say, but I don't know. Perhaps this is a case for the ACLU.

I understand California's Super Court recently ruled that electronic devices like a Cell Phone are wide open and fair game for search on a traffic stop or other casual encounter with law enforcement. Wrong...but there it is. However, school officials ARE NOT POLICE OFFICERS. Someone needs to make a few VERY big and VERY PUBLIC precedent setting cases that put some school admins right into poverty and unemployment. We must make that point painfully clear to the rest of the Gestapo in the school office, that their perceived authority has VERY REAL limits and a students Constitutional Rights don't get turned in at the school gate to be retreived on the way back out at the end of classes.

The saddest thing is..... So mcuh of the education today is pointedly leaving out those details of rights and what the Students absolutely DO HAVE in the way of them, they don't even know or understand how badly they are being violated. They're being taught to accept it...as this boy apparently did in handing over his phone without a fight (not physical) in the first place.
End the madness!
edit on 5-12-2011 by Wrabbit2000 because: spacing change



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 02:10 PM
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reply to post by GLaDOS
 


I agree with your stance. Not sure what the legality is about scrolling through all his messages however if the intention was to ensure the violence was limited to filming the fight - then there may not be a crime.

An educated guess would be the Teacher was making sure any other reference to the violence was also deleted. We see these woeful films of Children assaulting each other and the clips going viral. We hear how violence is viewed as entertainment and Children using their mobile phones to advertise the 'entertainment' which is just as reprehensible as the fighting itself.

In a courtroom I would tend to think the intention of the Teachers actions would be what would be tested by criminal law not the fact the entire contents of the phone being viewed.

Much Peace...



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 02:11 PM
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reply to post by mileslong54
 

Where I work, (public school), the police can search lockers, backpacks, computer accounts, phones and I have seen them do all of the above all in the name of drugs or domestic terrorism..... example... Columbine

Ah, si...I forgot we now live in a fear-driven society which has effectively shredded its constitutional protections and privacy rights. Silly me, apologies.

Barring that, I think the school itself would have more leeway, although trying to justify this one way or the other leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If they needed to get that video - eh. I suppose they could make the argument that if he recorded this incident, he was inclined to have recorded others that might fall under whatever jurisdiction they're claiming they have on the matter.

Thanks for your input and clarifying for me. Urgh.



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 02:12 PM
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You do need consent and permission but as the new trend these days, schools are becoming the new method of brainwashing away an individuals rights with the use of fear and scare tactics (i.e., being suspended or arrested).

I would suggest phone with some sort of key-lock on it, that way they wouldn't be able to access the phone. And tell your kid never to give out the key-lock unless your there with them no matter what scare tactics they try to use (heard stories where they try to get cops involved). That way if the school breaks into the phone it would be hacking and on top of other illegal stuff.



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by GLaDOS
 


If it's against school policy to have a cell phone in sight than the school has a right to confiscate the cell phone. That said, if a student refuses to hand over the cell phone, the student should be written-up for insubordination. Police are really the only authority that has a right to search a student or his locker.

Kids today look at fights as entertainment. They stand around and coax the individuals instead of breaking them up. Back in my day, the bigger kids would step in and break up fights or help the teachers gain control to help stop it.

What your son did was wrong, but the teacher shouldn't have gone through his text messages. He would have had to call a police officer if they needed to search your son any further.

Gone are the days where you can grab a student by the arm and direct him to the principal's office. I hate to say it, but children are given too many rights. They're not responsible or mature enough to make decisions that are in their best interest. It's one of the main reason schools are out of control.
edit on 5-12-2011 by WeRpeons because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 03:08 PM
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The asinine banning of cell phones in school is the real problem here. It's a lazy control driven virus of stupidity spreading in the same way as the maniacal 'drug test' culture that gives employers the right to lord it over employees very bodies outwith the work enviroment. Sinister, pointless rules rammed home for the sake of establishing a god-like control over either employees or students.

If teachers and schools are so bloody ineffective they cannot make children turn off and put away cellphones in class and must resort to this draconian banning of an every day item most children and adults rely on to some degree, they should be rethinking the whole way teachers are trained.

yes, they should be allowed to confiscate them if misused, just like any other item. I see nothing wrong with that. Banning them in schools outright is just being lazy though and does not reflect the adult work enviroment as school should. Rules like these make the enviroment more like a prison or high security facility.



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by GLaDOS
Well, basically there was a fight in my sons school, and like any other person, he got out his phone and started recording. Soon after, the teachers had him come to the office and his phone confiscated and searched. They found the video of the fight and deleted it - i'm fine for this much. But then, they checked all his other videos and pictures and even his texts. This infuriates me, why do teachers show so much authority over students? and i thought you needed a warrant to search someones phone?


It's a law called In loco parentis--in place of the parent. A teacher will typically send a student to the principal. From there, the principal (depending on the state) has the right to search. A court weighs the student’s expectation of privacy against the school’s need to maintain a safe learning environment. The school will win. The Supreme Court ruled this as: “swift and informal disciplinary procedures.”

The easy way to avoid a problem is to follow guidelines. The school is the best laboratory to experiment with the legal system. If a school is doing its job, the law of the school will be reasonable and followed to the letter. No warrants are necessary in schools.

The loophole you may be able to find is with the school board policy. There are typically strict guidelines that are required by all admin and teachers. As a parent, you are legally bound to the same policy. You also have the right to request any records or requirements that a kept regarding your child. Ask for a copy of board policy for searches. See if policy was followed.

In the end, be glad someone is watching out for your kids and requiring more than they require of themselves. You will be glad one day when a choice they make to stay out of jail is tied to something they learn from an experience at school. There are no teachers or admin that are not there to look out for the best interests of your students. If there are, they typically do not last long.



posted on Dec, 5 2011 @ 06:16 PM
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Hey, OP, I thought I'd drop back by and thank you. Your thread here inspired a lengthy conversation with my other half and myself regarding our own son and how to handle such a thing if it were to occur in his life. I don't know we ever would have thought to have this talk without your thread as a starting point and reason

What we have decided is that when he gets his own phone (He's 11..it won't be long I guess
) we are going to sit down with him and do two things. First, we are going to set up security on his phone to lock it so it can't 'accidentally' fall into hands that have no business flipping through his PRIVATE electronic material.

Second...we talked long and hard about this next part but it's the best thing we can come up with. Let me say we have no reason to believe he'll ever have illegal material or anything else to really be concerned with on his phone. We're teaching him values and stands taken strictly by principle though, not just when there is tangible reasons for it.

So, we'll be instructing him to destroy it before he hands it over in a situation like you describe. IF it's a police officer, he's to hand it over intact and with respect. The best way to handle authority...TRUE authority. However, if anyone other than Police Officer demands it, we're telling him to drop it, STOMP it several times and then offer to pick up the pieces and hand them that. We both understand the cost involved with today's phones and insurance doesn't cover willful destruction of it....but money means nothing next to principles he has to learn to live the rest of his life by.

Anyway.... Thanks again for the thread. I thought it might be interesting for you to know how your contribution to ATS carried past to real people and real family decisions. Take care, and good luck with what was done to your child. I hope you find options to do something about it.



posted on Dec, 6 2011 @ 01:59 AM
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Originally posted by GLaDOS
reply to post by JessopJessopJessop
 


In my sons school, phones are allowed..


Well they shouldn't be. Isn't there better schools to send him to?



posted on Dec, 6 2011 @ 02:06 AM
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Originally posted by Lostmymarbles
You do need consent and permission but as the new trend these days, schools are becoming the new method of brainwashing away an individuals rights with the use of fear and scare tactics (i.e., being suspended or arrested).

I would suggest phone with some sort of key-lock on it, that way they wouldn't be able to access the phone. And tell your kid never to give out the key-lock unless your there with them no matter what scare tactics they try to use (heard stories where they try to get cops involved). That way if the school breaks into the phone it would be hacking and on top of other illegal stuff.


Or how about raising your child correctly and making sure he doesn't take toys in to school?

I think what's more shocking is how many Americans seem to think it's acceptable for their children to insult their school and laugh in the face of education by taking in his superficial digital piece of sh/t that they don't even need.

Maybe you should withdraw your childrens from school and stop ruining education for the students who aren't assholes and are interested in bettering themselves?

Maybe fines for parents of disruptive students, to push you towards actually disciplining your child or removing him from the education system



posted on Dec, 6 2011 @ 02:24 AM
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In my part of Australia mobile phones are not permitted in school. I am a Teacher and Students know that if they have it out in class I will confiscate it and they can collect it from the Deputy Principal at the end of the day. It works! They are really pissed off with me but they learn that I won't tolerate disrespect.

In a general sense staff know that the Students have mobile phones and it is the parents who give them the phone and want them to have it on their person. No problem there.

If Students were taught to be respectful and discrete then there would not be a problem. Have the phone in your pocket or your bag - set it to vibrate and answer it discretely during recess or lunch. Most Students have a phone and IPODS and whatever else I accept that but I don't accept them being utilised in class.

When Students are engaged in their work I do not mind them putting their music on - when they can agree as a class I don't mind if it is on for the entire class to hear - but - plenty of Students have no boundaries and don't seem to know how to behave. As for using a mobile phone to record a violent assault - not on - unless you are intending to offer it to Police to assist in their investigation.

There is a deeper problem here - it is not about Students possessing a mobile phone and bringing it to school - it seems to be more about when and where it is used. Filming an assault and posting it to Youtube is a sad reflection of society and it is up to the adults to rectify the problem.

Much Peace...while we sort things out...



posted on Dec, 7 2011 @ 02:51 PM
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reply to post by WeRpeons
 



Kids today look at fights as entertainment. They stand around and coax the individuals instead of breaking them up. Back in my day, the bigger kids would step in and break up fights or help the teachers gain control to help stop it.



Buuuuuuullllll Craaaaaappp. Kids have always stood around to watch fights. Always have, always will. My grandpa used to tell me that his teachers wouldn't even break up fights just give them the strap afterwards. Kids used to bet marbles on fights while beating each other over the head with metal lunch boxes and slashing each other with flick knives.

I'm sick of you old farts trying to act like every year before you were 25 was some pillowy soft-focus dream-world. The world didn't get worse you just got old. Back in my day my butt, how does it feel to be a cliche?



posted on Dec, 7 2011 @ 05:06 PM
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reply to post by FEDec
 





Buuuuuuullllll Craaaaaappp. Kids have always stood around to watch fights. Always have, always will. My grandpa used to tell me that his teachers wouldn't even break up fights just give them the strap afterwards. Kids used to bet marbles on fights while beating each other over the head with metal lunch boxes and slashing each other with flick knives. I'm sick of you old farts trying to act like every year before you were 25 was some pillowy soft-focus dream-world. The world didn't get worse you just got old. Back in my day my butt, how does it feel to be a cliche?


You have no idea how naive you are. My parent's generation had more scruples and morals than my generation! Sure we had some kids back than that wouldn't bother breaking up a fight, but the majority of kids back than wouldn't stand by watching a kid getting the snot beat out of them! There was always someone in the crowd that was bigger and badder that would end up pulling the bully off. There was enough common sense to realize someone could accidentally be killed or maimed for life.

No, I know your grandfather's generation didn't go around using the f-word in school or in public as if it was the word "the." I know girls back then had more respect for themselves and would refrain from using vulgar words. Girls fighting in school were few and far between. The reality shows are a reflection of your generation. Physical fighting is the common thing to do when you're pissed off at somebody.


Back than there was more censorship on TV, sexually explicit and vulgar language was always censored. I know that most kids respected their teachers and their parents. We had consequences back than for talking back to teachers or disrupting class. Our generation didn't whine when reprimanded and use excuses for poor grades. We didn't sit on sofas all day playing video game until the early morning hours. We were much more physically active than your generation. Technology has made your generation lazy. You refuse to bend down and pick up a piece of paper if someone asks you to. If you miss throwing paper in the trash, you leave it on the floor.

Your generation doesn't understand the idea of consequences than previous generations did. Generations before you received smacks on the behind if we got out of line. Kids in your generation have more rights than your parents! You feel like you're owed something and a majority of you don't accept responsibility for your actions! Ask any employer who owns a business today and ask them what their biggest problem with young workers today. I guarantee you it will be poor work ethics! (I know this for a fact because I deal with employers on a yearly basis). I've watched young clerks in stores being rude with customers. Some feel like talking on their cell phone is more important than servicing their customers.

No, you have no idea what you're talking about. Every generation gets worse. You'll understand it much better once you become an old fart and have kids.



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