Mr James Kelly.. A Serious Jack the Ripper Candidate?

reply to post by Rising Against


Thank you for all of your hard work and research, I love the ripper case( Im weird like that) and delving into mysteries are one of the reasons I come to this site, The Ripper Case was one of the first mysteries to get me hooked
Thanks again GREAT JOB! BIG THUMBS UP!

One weird thing about those notes is they originally thought to be written in blood. But blood deteriorates after a while. Patricia Cornwell made a match to Walter Sickert paint that matches that color. Since paint is very rare to make an identical match in an artist painting. It does seem to point to him. Might be worth looking into that.

reply to post by Rising Against


I always enjoy your threads.

But I've come to the conclusion that...there was no Jack the Ripper.I believe they were sacrifices..possibly masonic.

Jack the ripper was created to distract the people from the real perpetrators.He was the fall guy,a myth.

reply to post by GodIsPissed


Well I think the obvious question really has to be.. How did you come to that conclusion?

Personally I still suspect James Kelly as opposed to some masonic conspiracy, but that's just me. I also explained why as best as I could in the opening posts..

reply to post by Rising Against


rising, did you read patricia cornwell's book about the subject ? she makes a good case for walter sickert

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
reply to post by Rising Against

 

rising, did you read patricia cornwell's book about the subject ? she makes a good case for walter sickert

Unfortunately I haven't, no. I have been hearing a lot about this character in this thread though so no doubt he's someone I have to seriously consider. Keeping this in mind and after some searching I did find some information about Sickert which has been troubling me lately. Take this for example..

Walter Sickert had been tangentially implicated in the Ripper crimes as early as the 1970s, with the release of the now infamous "Royal Conspiracy" theory. But it wasn't until the early 1990s, with the release of Jean Overton Fuller's Sickert and the Ripper Crimes, that the peculiar artist became a Ripper suspect in his own right. More recently, Patricia Cornwell has claimed to have found DNA evidence linking Sickert to at least one "Ripper letter".

(Source)

Now forgive me here, but I don't understand how it took so long for him to be considered a major suspect. I just can't help but wonder why he was never considered much sooner, more specifically around the time of the killings, like Kelly was for example. I learned a while ago that late comers are often late for a very good reason.

This webpage also seems to do quite a good job at tearing apart Patricians various theories, one's supposedly tying Sickert to the original Ripper. Take the fact that information about Sickert seems to strongly suggest that he wasn't even in London at the time the ripper victims were found, instead he was in France:

Fact #6: There are several independent sources of evidence that indicate Walter Sickert was in France between August and October, 1888.

Cornwell admits to a single letter written by Sickert from France during the autumn of 1888. The letter, as she states, was undated, and no envelope or postmark surives to confirm the actual date it was sent. Nevertheless, the content of the letter obviously indicates that Sickert was in France at this time. "This is a nice little place to sleep & eat in," he writes. Cornwell claims that since there is no post-mark, it is impossible to state for certain the point of origination of this letter.

While that technically may be true, there are several other pieces of evidence that independently corroborate Sickert's time in France during that autumn. Sickert's biographer, Matthew Sturgis, recently elaborated on this evidence in an article in the Sunday Times (3 November 2002). According to Sturgis, although the exact date Sickert left for France can not be determined, he apparently departed sometime in mid-August. His last London sketch is dated August 4th, and there are no sources to indicate that he was in London after that date. On September 6th, Sickert's mother wrote from St. Valéry-en-Caux, describing how Walter and his brother Bernhard were having such a "happy time" swimming and painting there. A letter sent by a French painter, Jacques-Emile Blanche, to his father described a visit with Sickert on September 16th. Walter's wife Ellen wrote to her brother-in-law on September 21st, stating that her husband was in France for some weeks now.

There is evidence to suggest that Sickert stayed in the Dieppe area at least until early October, 1888. He painted a local buther's shop, "flooded with sunlight" in a piece he titled The October Sun.

Although any one of these several bits of evidence could feasibly be ignored or explained away, the combination of all these independent sources confirming the same thing - namely, that Sickert was in France at the time of the Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes murders - suggests that Sickert could not have been the killer. While it is true that ferry service between England and France was widely available, and technically Sickert could have travelled back and forth before and after each murder, that is pure speculation and there is no evidence to suggest this was the case.

(Source)

The final conclusion from this particular page, after a great deal of discussion, is also this:

However, there remains as yet no concrete evidence that definitively connects Sickert with the Ripper letters, and, even if there was, that remains a far cry from being able to name Sickert as the Ripper himself. Cornwell's findings in no way should be considered sufficient evidence that the case is solved "100%". No jury, today or in 1888, would ever convict Sickert on the basis of her findings.

(Source)

So all in all I apologize for not having access to the book by Patricia Cornwell, but from what I've read in reply to it.. her claims are not as concrete as she would like us to believe.

YOU WENT TO THE RIPPER CASE FILE AND READ EVERYTHING ON THE ENTIRE SITE AND POSTED HERE ONLY A SHORT TIME AFTER I POSTED ? LOL... RIGHT...

THE ONLY PERSON YOU JUST OUTSMARTED WAS YOURSELF ....

I HAVE BEEN PROFESSIONALLY DOING FORENSIC RESEARCH ON / OF JACK THE RIPPER FOR OVER 20 YEARS...

I HAVE TAKEN DIRECT DIGITAL HI RESOLUTION SCANS OF ALL THE "ORIGINAL" RIPPER LETTERS...IN PERSON...HELD THEM IN MY OWN HANDS...

WHAT IS NOT WIDELY KNOWN IS THE TYPE OF MENTAL ILLNESS THAT KELLY SUFFERED FROM...IT WAS FROM SYPHILIS, IT RENDERED HIM PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE OF BEING ....JACK THE RIPPER...

HIS FAMILYS RECORDS SHOW A LONG AND COMPLETE HISTORY OF THIS DISEASE DESTROYING HIM MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY.. KELLY WAS IRREFUTABLY NOT..JTR...

WHAT YOU APPARENTLY DONT KNOW... IS THAT PATRICIA CORNWELLS DNA TEST WERE DONE WITH PERMISSION OF THE CROWN, AND DONE IN A FEDERAL FORENSIC LAB...UNDER THE HIGHEST SECURITY AND PROFESSIONAL PROTOCALS, ...

THE DNA DID NOT LIE, IT WAS A DIRECT MATCH TO SICKERTS LIVING RELATIVES...AND IT WAS FROM THE ONLY TRUE AND VERIFIABLE RIPPER LETTER.

IM NOT PICKING ON YOU... PLEASE EXCUSE MY CAPS... TOO MANY COFFEE SPILLS INTO THE KEYBOARD LATE AT NIGHT...THE CAPS KEY GOT STUCK..AND I BROKE IT OFF... SO IM STUCK WITH THEM FOR A FEW WEEKS UNTIL HP SENDS MY REPLACEMENT KEYBOARD... MY APOLOGIES IF THEY SPRAINED YOUR EYEBALLS...


THE GENTS ARTICLE WAS WELL DONE, I NEVER SAID IT WASNT... AND IM GLAD..THAT EVERYONE ENJOYED IT.. I DID...

BUT THE MYSTERY OF WHO JACK IS AS BEEN SOLVED AT A LEVEL OF 97% PROBABLITY ... BY PATRICIA CORNWALL.. IF YOU REALLY WANT TO LEARN THE TRUTH..

READ HER BOOK, ITS NOT FICTION, ITS A 5 YEAR 3 MILLION DOLLAR FORENSIC INVESTIGATION INTO
JACKS IDENITY AND THE TRUE FACTS..SUPPORTED BY IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE...THAT WALTER SICKERT..IS..WAS...JTR

JACK THE RIPPER, BY PATRICIA CORNWALL ( CAREER FORENSIC SPECIALIST AND MEDICAL EXAMINER.. NOT JUST AN AUTHOR )












5

I can’t find anything to say the victims were raped.
Maybe they were killed out of frustration and rage. Kind of looks that way to me.

i tried watching this, but i couldnt get through to part 2. unless i muted it. her attitude and ego made me cringe.


love and harmony
Whateva

Great job as usual RA., a well researched and thought out argument that I have to come expect from your posts.

reply to post by FRANKBLACKmillenniumgroup

YOU WENT TO THE RIPPER CASE FILE AND READ EVERYTHING ON THE ENTIRE SITE AND POSTED HERE ONLY A SHORT TIME AFTER I POSTED ? LOL... RIGHT...

Um.. I don't remember claiming to have read the entire site. Where has this come from?

WHAT IS NOT WIDELY KNOWN IS THE TYPE OF MENTAL ILLNESS THAT KELLY SUFFERED FROM...IT WAS FROM SYPHILIS, IT RENDERED HIM PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE OF BEING ....JACK THE RIPPER...

How can that be true when Kelly quite clearly showed signs of having a mental illness long before he moved to London which was where he had his first encounters with prostitutes? ..Oh, which was in the Whitechapel area coincidentally.

He was described as "Not right in the head" by employers for example. He was having "mood swings" and acting "irrationally" etc. All this before he had syphilis.

Also, all I'm able to find is that Jack Kelly had a "Venereal disease." Now you know as well as I do that this obviously doesn't automatically mean syphillis, instead it could be a number of things. Some more serious than others..

So, can you at least prove that Kelly had Syphilis? If not then I'm afraid no one's going to take you seriously here. I see you're new to ATS (welcome to the site btw!), and this is no ordinary site.. In this website providing proof of your claims is an absolute must. Which brings me to your next point..

HIS FAMILYS RECORDS SHOW A LONG AND COMPLETE HISTORY OF THIS DISEASE DESTROYING HIM MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY.. KELLY WAS IRREFUTABLY NOT..JTR...

Well my friend feel free to back up your claim, put this theory to bed once and for all, and provide the proof.

I'm here to learn after all so I look forward to the proof in your next reply. Assuming you have it...

THE DNA DID NOT LIE, IT WAS A DIRECT MATCH TO SICKERTS LIVING RELATIVES...AND IT WAS FROM THE ONLY TRUE AND VERIFIABLE RIPPER LETTER.

You may be interested to read this:

Fact #2: The mtDNA results do not state that Walter Sickert was the author of those Ripper letters. They state only that the person who left DNA on Sickert's correspondence can not be eliminated from the percentage of the U.K. population who could have provided an mtDNA match. Walter Sickert's DNA no longer exists - he was cremated after his death.

Before we begin to discuss the actual interpretation of the mtDNA evidence, it is important to understand that the documents being tested were in most cases over a hundred years old. Most, if not all of them have been handled countless times by family members, archivists and researchers over the years, and so DNA contamination can be considered a serious problem. Little mention of this possible contamination is made in Cornwell's book.

mtDNA found on any particular letter may not necessarily have come from the author. Aside from possible contamination, we do not know for sure that Sickert licked his own stamps and envelopes. This may seem a silly point, but as Cornwell herself states, it was common practice in Victorian times to use a moist sponge for the practice, for fear of germs and bacteria. Also, if it is true as Cornwell herself suggests, that Sickert had several of these letters mailed for him by other people, then it must be taken into consideration that the envelopes and stamps may have been moistened by someone else's saliva.

So already there are several points of contention which may or may invalidate any form of DNA testing on stamp/envelope residue, since there is no concrete proof that DNA left on those letters actually came from Walter Sickert. But let's ignore that for now and examine the mtDNA results themselves.

mtDNA is different from nuclear DNA in that it is transmitted matrilineally. That means that child inherits his or her mtDNA directly from her mother - none of the father's mtDNA is replicated in his children. This is important when attempting to find DNA matches between parents and children, or between siblings, but in our case, Cornwell is simply trying to match Walter Sickert to Walter Sickert, so it shouldn't matter. mtDNA testing is used by many forensics labs for identification and should be considered as valid a method as nuclear DNA testing. It is, however, a much less specific method of testing - mtDNA, unlike nuclear DNA, is not unique. Finding an mtDNA match between two samples does not mean that one person left both, but that only a certain percentage of the population could have left both.

Continued in the next post.

Thanks.

The mtDNA testing done by Cornwell's team found similar "sequences" of mtDNA. What does that mean? No one mtDNA sequence is unique. An mtDNA sequence found in Person A may also be found in Persons B and C, regardless of whether or not they are related by blood. This is similar, for example, to blood typing - persons completely unrelated to each other and living on opposite sides of the planet can still have the same blood type. In this case, the mtDNA "sequences" found indicate, according to Cornwell, that only 1% of the population of the U.K. could have left the DNA found on those Ripper letters, and that the person who left DNA on Sickert's correspondence was a member of that 1% population. (Other DNA experts, when asked to comment on this analysis, state that the actual percentage could range anywhere between 10% and 0.1% of the contemporary population). In 1901 there were nearly 40 million people in the United Kingdom. That means that Sickert, if we assume it is his mtDNA that was found, and that Cornwell's figure of 1% is correct, was one of approximately 400,000 people whose mtDNA shared those same sequences.

This is certainly not conclusive evidence - it would never stand up in a modern-day courtroom - but it is, as Cornwelll says, "a cautious indicator." Still, it should be noted that her own DNA specialist said that it could very well be just a matter of coincidence.

In the end, although the evidence is certainly not iron-clad, it can be considered suggestive. Ignoring the various pitfalls of contamination and provenance, the mtDNA evidence does show that Walter Sickert can not be eliminated from suspicion of having written, or hoaxed, one or more Ripper letters.

(Source)

So it's not quite as clear cut as she would have us believe I'm afraid. In fact she is pretty much being torn apart here.

BUT THE MYSTERY OF WHO JACK IS AS BEEN SOLVED AT A LEVEL OF 97% PROBABLITY ... BY PATRICIA CORNWALL.. IF YOU REALLY WANT TO LEARN THE TRUTH..

Please read the above text as It debunks her claims. Please also read this post here and see this website here as once again her claims are debunked quite nicely.

Thanks for your time.

reply to post by Rising Against


you should read it, and you should look into the stationary and watermark evidence she presents. I'll let you discover that on your own, as your research skills are evident

warning about the book, as gory as the murders are, as she delves into a motive for sickert, she goes into detail about surgical procedures of the era

ouch !

reply to post by syrinx high priest

you should read it

Well the Ripper case isn't exactly where my main interests are (I have JFK books and documentaries all over the place on the other hand. ), but as I have some money coming in (finally) I might actually look into getting her book sometime in the near future when I'm settled a bit more.

Admittedly I've mostly heard bad reviews about her so called evidence but on the other hand I'd hate to think I just discarded everything she claims without even going to the trouble of reading it in full. So yeah, I'll be looking into getting it in the future if I can.

I ACCOMPLISED MY MISSION AND POINT... THAT YOU NEED TO READ THE BOOK... AFTER YOU READ IT IF YOU STILL DONT BELIVE THAT WALTER SICKERT WAS JACK THE RIPPER..ILL PAY YOU FOR YOUR BOOK...

Originally posted by FRANKBLACKmillenniumgroup
I ACCOMPLISED MY MISSION AND POINT... THAT YOU NEED TO READ THE BOOK... AFTER YOU READ IT IF YOU STILL DONT BELIVE THAT WALTER SICKERT WAS JACK THE RIPPER..ILL PAY YOU FOR YOUR BOOK...

Well no, lol.

I stand by everything I said before. And I still believe Kelly was the original ripper, especially when compared to Sickert.

To accomplish your mission would be to debunk the claims made by the article I linked you to before thus proving Sickert could be the ripper still as of right now it's shown he's most certainly not.

reply to post by Rising Against


You never disappoint on the quality and research time taken on every thread you do RA, and this thread is no exception.

But whoever JTR was, and I'm sure the debate will go on and on, one thing that is clear is that he was a sick, sick dude. Just as Peter Sutcliffe was in his butchering, mutilating days !!

Awesome thread baby !!

xx

reply to post by Rising Against


There was documentry here in the UK I think last year, which talked about some of the letters (red ink) being faked by the media at the time, and "Jack the Ripper" being a made up name. The first letters are well written while the later letter had mistakes and bad grammer.

link

reply to post by FRANKBLACKmillenniumgroup


I'm sorry but there is no proof that "Jack" wrote the letters and if infact he had anything to do with them in the first place.

reply to post by Kurokage


Oh cool, thanks for that link.

Out of curiosity do you know the name of that documentary as well? I'd like to give it a watch when I have the time.

reply to post by Rising Against


If memory serves I think it was called "Jack The Ripper: Tabloid Killer Revealed" and talked about sensationalism of the killings by the press.

Also the paintings are so creepy... They are of naked women in death like poses. Very creepy. And the blood red paint matches the notes. Im sold on that alone. And ps anyone commiting murders is gonna cover thier tracks. But the proof of what he did is the images he painted.