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The backwards handling of Fast & Furious

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posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 09:37 AM
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And while President Obama has said the operation was a mistake and that "people who screwed up will be held accountable," the record so far does not bear that out. Those in charge of the botched operation have been reassigned or promoted, their pensions intact. But many of those who blew the whistle face isolation, retaliation and transfer. Read more: www.foxnews.com...


As of yesterday the Agent Brian Terry case has been sealed and prior to that the supervisors of the operation were given "transfers" or in political terms a promotion. The agents who raised concerns on the other hand seem to be marginalized against. Why is it that in this investigation we are seeing failure rewarded? This has been one of the least recognized fails of the administration and it just keeps on getting more interesting as it slips out of sight. Unlike the one conducted under the Bush administration, F&F did not include Mexico on the operation. So the question is how deep does this really go? Was it just for proving the 90% gun stat to Mexico or is there more going on that has not been uncovered? What are your thoughts?




posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 09:45 AM
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am I the only one who thought this thread would be about car handling in some Fast & Furious movie?



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 09:48 AM
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reply to post by Oscillator
 


That in a way answers one of my questions. The very name of the operation makes it seem less serious. Have you any familiarity with the story?



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 09:51 AM
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reply to post by hangedman13
 


The whistleblowers have indeed been hung out to dry in this case. It is a travesty of justice beyond any scope in the last 20 years. The battle is not over yet and Holder and Obama must go down with this ship.



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 09:56 AM
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reply to post by hangedman13
 


The whistleblowers would be in total fear of their lives and that of their families so what they do say will be limited.



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 09:56 AM
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This F&F thing is like being locked in room 101.

You read the reports, the names involved, the methods used, the end results and you think two and two are four.

Then the media and government start shouting in your face "two and two equal 5" and no matter how many documents you wave or how many first-hand accounts you produce they just keep yelling "5, 5, 5, 5, 5!"

I've lost quite a bit of hair over this absurdity.



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 09:59 AM
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reply to post by hangedman13
 


No it's the first I hear about it honestly, but then again I am from Belgium so that should be no suprise. Choosing a name like that would definately not help people trying to find information about it I'm sure.



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 10:02 AM
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When I step back and try to see the whole picture it all goes in the same direction. Against the constitution.

This Source explains some things nicely imo...


When Jim and Sarah Brady met with Barack Obama on the 30th anniversary of the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan, they asked the President how he would help to advance their Handgun Control, Inc (now the Brady Campaign) gun control/gun confiscation agenda. Obama’s response: “I just want you to know that we are working on it. We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar.” ObamaHolder

In the seven months since that meeting, many have suggested Obama’s comment was a dark reference to the criminal Operation Fast and Furious. After all, without the courage of ATF whistle blowers, the murderous and unconstitutional scheme would have probably remained “under the radar” even to this day.


Not to mention that the semi-auto versions of these weapons are far more expensive and less effective than the full-auto versions readily available to the cartels...


But they DO coincide quite nicely with the types of weapons whose availability American gun grabbers like Barack Obama have been most interested in limiting or doing away with altogether.



Yet as popular as these AK and AR rifles are to gun buyers in the United States, Mexican gangs have virtually NO INTEREST in them at all! Fully automatic or selective-fire AK rifles are available to cartels on the black market for about $100, far less than the purchase price of the semi-auto version in US gun stores. And as for the AR models, “…cartels raid armories and buy selective-fire M-16 and M-4 rifles from deserting or corrupt Mexican military members for far less than the semi-auto rifles finding their way to cartels with federal government assistance…”



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 10:03 AM
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reply to post by Oscillator
 


It was a gunrunning "investigation" that wasnt. The gist is the feds sold a bunch of guns to cartels and gangsters that turned up in crimes and the excuse was the investigation but the investigation they claimed to be running was so half-assed there was no way they could have ever produced any results or arrests.

Basically the US government flooded criminals with guns for kicks, money, to make American gun owners look bad, whatever the reason it's a cluster# to be sure.

fast and furious timeline



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 10:08 AM
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reply to post by thisguyrighthere
 


IC
Fear Society + Hegelian dialectic
kill two birds with one stone



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 10:09 AM
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Originally posted by hangedman13
Was it just for proving the 90% gun stat to Mexico or is there more going on that has not been uncovered? What are your thoughts?


No I don't think they were trying to prove that most of the guns go to Mexico, every ATF agent near the border knows that already.

I think they were actually trying to build a case and take down the bigger players.

That said...you never let guns "walk" and that is what made this operation a cluster ef. It cost lives. It was idiotic and fatal.

Though to hear the far right flip-flop on the issue for political convenience is funny to watch.

"Guns don't kill people...people do!!" now it is...."Guns kill people...It's the ATFs fault for not cracking down on gun sales!"

There are dozens of folks in the chain of command between the President and this operation, he doesn't make on the ground strategy decisions for the ATF.

I get why the GOP wants to lay this at his feet, but I think most rational observers know the reality of it.

I would like to see this investigated from the ground level up and folks held accountable, unfortunately I think the crux of the effort is politically driven...top-down...which affords the ground level managers who effed up some cover.
edit on 1-12-2011 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-12-2011 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-12-2011 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-12-2011 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 10:10 AM
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Here is the NRA's LaPierre putting together a lot of the same things that stuck in my craw...

Where is the last straw? Would somebody please yank that thing already?! I'll bring the rope.



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 10:23 AM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 


The political spin on it really ticks me off.

Similar if not identical "investigations" were going on under Bush.

The way a good portion of the perceived outrage is being directed at Obama and his administration means most really dont care about the real problem with having these broken investigations in the first place.

So the POTUS will change and the abuses will go on.

In their defense I have to admit the real problems are pretty widespread and daunting. But what sense does it make to continue ignoring your rusted ship hull while picking out new figureheads for the bow year after year.



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 10:25 AM
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Originally posted by Indigo5

...I would like to see this investigated from the ground level up and folks held accountable, unfortunately I think the crux of the effort is politically driven...top-down...which affords the ground level managers who effed up some cover.


Yeah, Valerie friggin Plame gets a special prosecutor but F&F gets a cover-up.



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 10:32 AM
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Originally posted by hangedman13
reply to post by Oscillator
 


That in a way answers one of my questions. The very name of the operation makes it seem less serious. Have you any familiarity with the story?


They should have named it, "The Obama Administration Kills Border Agents" but Fast and Furious was cooler.

S&F

And a bucket of offal for an administration that condones and promotes secrets and lying.

Transparent my A**!



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 10:37 AM
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Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
reply to post by Indigo5
 

But what sense does it make to continue ignoring your rusted ship hull while picking out new figureheads for the bow year after year.


Star and agree.



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 10:39 AM
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Originally posted by TreadUpon

Originally posted by Indigo5

...I would like to see this investigated from the ground level up and folks held accountable, unfortunately I think the crux of the effort is politically driven...top-down...which affords the ground level managers who effed up some cover.


Yeah, Valerie friggin Plame gets a special prosecutor but F&F gets a cover-up.


Not to go off topic...but so right. The crap DC (both sides of the fence) choose to spend millions on in "special investigations" for pure political purposes is criminal in it's own right, more so given the problems facing this country.

This should be an on the ground, talk to every agent and manager investigation - ground up, not a "senate panel"...spout political sound bites... investigation.While everybody shouts and poses in DC the people that dreamt up and executed this idiotic plan duck their heads and slink away.
edit on 1-12-2011 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 10:40 AM
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reply to post by thisguyrighthere
 





The way a good portion of the perceived outrage is being directed at Obama and his administration means most really dont care about the real problem with having these broken investigations in the first place.


See that's the problem in the perception I have been seeing. Under Bush, Mexico was working on their side of the border. Under Obama the guns were just allowed to "walk" without Mexican authorities knowing a thing. Too many people want to fall into "well Bush did it" garbage. It was a cooperative effort under Bush! Hence why the State dept needs to be called out on it. They are supposed to be the ones determining how operations like F&F affect our relations with other nations.



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by hangedman13
reply to post by thisguyrighthere
 





The way a good portion of the perceived outrage is being directed at Obama and his administration means most really dont care about the real problem with having these broken investigations in the first place.


See that's the problem in the perception I have been seeing. Under Bush, Mexico was working on their side of the border. Under Obama the guns were just allowed to "walk" without Mexican authorities knowing a thing.


This is non-political. Under Bush the cartels were still rising to power. Now they are insanely powerful, beheading police chiefs who oppose them. I blame the ATF for letting the guns walk, but it is hard to blame the US for not sharing covert ATF operation plans with a government that is now almost completely corrupt.


Originally posted by hangedman13
Hence why the State dept needs to be called out on it. They are supposed to be the ones determining how operations like F&F affect our relations with other nations.


Again..if you think the State Department has the bandwith to monitor local covert ATF operations in AZ etc. you have an inflated view as to what the State Department is capable of dealing with on a daily basis.

These things enter the State Department's radar AFTER it becomes a diplomatic cluster ef.
edit on 1-12-2011 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 1 2011 @ 10:53 AM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 


No if anything because of it dealing with an other country the State dept should be in the know. The ATF is a US law enforcement agency, the straw buyers were purchasing for Mexican cartels, not US cartels. Does the term international incident mean anything? The Mexican authorities were none to pleased to learn about it.



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