The debate of our time.Private vs Public vs Iron Heel.

These are a couple replies I just posted in a thread discussing the UK public sector strikes.Fox News telegraphs the next move of the oligarchy and if you have seen any 'special reports' by John Stossel amongst other things you know a war on unions has begun.But is it just a war on unions and the public sector? Or a war on all workers and also a war on small business? I think it is. In my posts my view was that we should all stand together and work together for sensible solutions instead of breaking into factions.Surley there is more middle ground for the majority of us.Shouldnt we direct more attention to the ones at the top that created the problems?

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I totally see your points and I think it is the debate of our time.I worry because the next step is private ownership of everything.All services including parks,public spaces,emergency services.We are pretty much there already.So if the public dont own anything anymore what do we have a say in? What would be the point of government? Might as well let a bunch of bankers run things openly which is starting to happen in Europe.Its not just a war on unions, public/private sector workers and small business. It is a war on democracy and it is the oligarchy openly telling us that we dont deserve a say because they know best and they are far more important and we need them because we would all be helpless without them. They failed,they want us to pay.But like I said,I agree,we also need to look at improving the public sector and eliminating waste,increasing productivity.If all the major players in the world agreed to raising the corporate tax level significantly it would seem alot fairer to ask workers to endure austerity. Corporations need us,we dont need them.Corporations/Trusts(robber barons) kill jobs and send them to third world countries,they hurt economies more than they help.They take unfair market shares and monopolise/dominate markets.We should let big banks fail and tax the hell out of corporations and put a limit on their max market share so as to ensure competition and opportunity in markets. And governments should keep and if need be,take back( Eminent Domain) all public utilities.We should never have let them sell our roads and parks.What can we vote on when we dont own anything?We will be completely beholden and at their mercy.We pretty much are already,we need to stick together.

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Text But since when do bin men spend several years at university to attain a degree..answer they dont, please think about what you are saying. As i said in my deleted post, wait until i take my child away on a cultural trip (holiday) and let them try and fine me, for not having him available for school, i'm inclined to bill the council as it is for today.

reply to post by FFS4000


I totally agree.Its like the stories of bus drivers earning six figure salaries that came out of Milwaukee during the fruitless Scott Walker protests.I think we get caught up in left vs right,conservative vs progressive,public vs private etc etc and caught in ideologies when talking solutions like capitalism vs communism vs libertarianism vs socialism ...but maybe with common sense and cooperation and an open mind we can take the good from each of them.Meld them into something that is fair and sensible for all of us. Bus Drivers are important but realistically they dont deserve six figures,most can agree on that.We can all agree garbage collectors dont deserve better pay than someone that is university educated.They make us think we cant fix isolated things like that or it will bring down everything and that its not legal but we can do anything,its called a decree or executive order.They pass them all the time on things they dont tell us about,they sure as hell can pass them if most of us agree.We can also tax the super wealthy.We are not helpless,we have the power,they make us think we dont.There would be alot that the majority of us could all agree on.I think we could convince bus drivers and garbage workers to take a pay cut and a wage that was more sensible,if not they could find employment doing something else.We could also identify and eliminate incompetent teachers.Fix the public sector and make it worker better as well as ensuring adequate pay,conditions and pension schemes.
edit on 30-11-2011 by theovermensch because: typo

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Teachers and public workers like FireFighters,Nurses,Police,Welfare Workers etc are the backbone of society. Why cant the public and private workers of the world stand in solidarity. There is plenty of people at the top that do [SNIP] like politicians.They tell us if you pay peanuts you get monkeys,we have monkeys running our countries,if we need Austerity lets start with them.And in the private sector in the UK lets start with those over-paid soccer/football players.Lets tax the crap out them.They are overvalued in society,teachers undervalued.

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but again the blame lies with government.And to an extent with society.There are many great teachers out there but there would be more if we valued them more than David Beckham.And if we paid them more. Maybe we arent attracting enough of the right people to be good teachers.

Anyway,austerity for the rich and over valued should be what the workers of the world should be fighting for. We shouldnt be squabbling amongst ourselves.

#sorry if you already were in that thread,Im a little narcissistic (: and that was a quick way to construct a thread, sorry if its disjointed.Anyway,should we be fighting ourselves or the Iron Heel?

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We shouldnt fight amongst ourselves. I am not saying unions are perfect,they should stand for the rights of all workers.and stand with the private sector and the private sector should stand with the public sector.We all live on the same streets and in the same neighbourhoods. And we didnt create the problem,the banks did.Why are we paying. We need to let them fail because it wont mean the end of the world. It will create great opportunity.

#forgot that bit.Belongs at the end of my post puzzle anyway Everyone in the thread seemed pretty reasonable, no Tea Party Patriots (kidding) Lets stand together.

Because conservatives believe that everything should be private. Look at thatcher's government, she made alot of public services private and camerons coming in to finish the job. They sell things like "British gas" to there rich friends and we pay the price 20 years later when we are FORCED to pay out of our asses just to keep warm.

People, the 99% especially DO need to stick together. However, we live in a society where community's have been broken down due to poverty caused by decline in industry, Mass immigration over the past 10-15 years which means people no longer know (or care) who there neighbour is. A soaring in increase in drugs and alcohol addiction in both men and women contributing to a "lost generation" that doesn't know that the working class used to have a fair deal in terms of what a wage would get you in life and also the rights you maintained within the workplace - all out of the window since thatchers circus passed through.

Services will continue to be privatised such as the NHS. The poor can no longer afford to educate themselves to university level - confining them in the job market. Inflation will continue to surpass the annual increase in the minimum wage, no housing, no jobs, no prospects.

I hate to speak so negatively of whats going on but im 22years old and its not looking good.
The public sector is LUCKY to still be retaining a union.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc


Stossel used Puerto Rico as an example of a conservative government that turned things around but like you say, its all geared to taking from us. Europe will be used to scare the rest of the world into line if it can be kept on life support. Things do look grim. Stossel is so insulting,he thinks we are morons.

lmao..
would love to see the university educated prats out picking up rubbish..
no way in hell would they ever do that..

rubbish collectors earn every bit of what they get paid.

Tbh find the entire concepts of things like land ownership, borders, nations and all the other idiotic things people argue over to be pointless relics of humanities primitive past..
Unfortuneatly humanity has failed to grow up and still squables like a bunch of primitives over things that mean nothing...

as to the strikes.. wont solve a thing only be a temporary inconvenience at best to a few people.. then it will be back to business as usual..

reply to post by Expat888

Text lmao.. would love to see the university educated prats out picking up rubbish.. no way in hell would they ever do that.. rubbish collectors earn every bit of what they get paid.

Text Wages are determined through the antagonistic struggle between capitalist and worker. Victory goes necessarily to the capitalist. The capitalist can live longer without the worker than can the worker without the capitalist. Combination among the capitalists is customary and effective; workers’ combination is prohibited and painful in its consequences for them. Besides, the landowner and the capitalist can make use of industrial advantages to augment their revenues; the worker has neither rent nor interest on capital to supplement his industrial income. Hence the intensity of the competition among the workers. Thus only for the workers is the separation of capital, landed property, and labour an inevitable, essential and detrimental separation. Capital and landed property need not remain fixed in this abstraction, as must the labour of the workers.

Ya commie I dont mean to be hard on Garbo's.I do think there is too much wage disparity and I do think alot of university educated people often get paid a whole lot to do a whole lot of nothing.And I think we can fix it.


Trying to find a Marx quote to add to that but cant find the one Im looking for.Its something like -the harder and more horrible the work,the lower the pay. I agree everyone has value and that we should all be paid fairly for what we contribute.

Originally posted by Expat888
lmao..
would love to see the university educated prats out picking up rubbish..
no way in hell would they ever do that..

rubbish collectors earn every bit of what they get paid.

Tbh find the entire concepts of things like land ownership, borders, nations and all the other idiotic things people argue over to be pointless relics of humanities primitive past..
Unfortuneatly humanity has failed to grow up and still squables like a bunch of primitives over things that mean nothing...

as to the strikes.. wont solve a thing only be a temporary inconvenience at best to a few people.. then it will be back to business as usual..

Rubbish collectors - like anyone who works, works hard and deserves a liveable wage and a decent pension. These things should just be limited to someone because they're "skilled" But thats another argument.

People aren't "squabbling" over pointless issues, this is there livelihoods ffs. Have abit of respect.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc


I have respect for those who actually work and do/produce things that are of use - rubbish collectors, farmers, fishermen, construction workers, labourers etc they earn an honest days living..

I have no respect for politicians, bankers, lawyers, merchants etc.. - they leach off the hard work of others and produce nothing of value ..

reply to post by Expat888


I like the four tier class system of Fuedal Japan that had merchants below the more productive artisans and peasants. Samuria new they were nothing but parasites.

Originally posted by theovermensch
reply to post by Expat888

 

I like the four tier class system of Fuedal Japan that had merchants below the more productive artisans and peasants. Samuria new they were nothing but parasites.

edit on 30-11-2011 by theovermensch because: typo

exactly.. but had I stated that wouldve got called xenophobic or nationalistic again.. in many ways my thinking is the same as my ancestors prior to the meiji restoration..in japan arts , literature and culture flourished for over 300 years after the civil war till admiral perry forced them to open up to the outside world..

reply to post by Expat888

Text in many ways my thinking is the same as my ancestors prior to the meiji restoration..in japan arts , literature and culture flourished for over 300 years after the civil war till admiral perry forced them to open up to the outside world..

Yeah,I like how Japan were pretty much closed to the outside world.I read the book called Shogun by James Clavell a while ago, its set when Portugal were controling the trade routes in South East Asia,but it was very limited and foreigners were limited to a few ports.The Spanish and Portugese were not able to force them to open up at that point. I dont know enough about Admiral Perry but I have seen The Last Samuria. I will have to do more reading.There is no honour in automated weapons And I think alot can be said for self enforced isolation,it would ensure there are no multinational corporations exploiting country.

reply to post by Expat888

Text exactly.. but had I stated that wouldve got called xenophobic or nationalistic again..

Alot of parrots on here Funny how people can use the term 'nationalist' as an insult.