A Christian Store Denied Him This T-Shirt…

reply to post by jmdewey60


He did not "come" to create a new religion. He may have taken the advice to mind from people he met along his journey, but if anything, Jesus would have wanted to completely do away with religion, not start a new.
I concede this debate, however, because like all theological discussions, the matter is unwinnable on both sides, which is why I am not a religious person; there are too many inconsistencies to make a valid point and too many hypocrisies to try.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in a higher power, whether that power be divine/spiritual/biological/extradimensional I cannot say, as no one can. I don't believe a "god" of infinite wisdom and power would require something as petty as our worship, and I don't believe he'd want us trapped under standards of religion, which limit humans instead of pushing us to advance ourselves and love one another without bias or hatred. He would want us to be free... moral, but free. Religion isn't necessary for any of these things. They actually contradict these ideas.

Try getting these on a T-Shirt.......


"Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt. For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses." (Ezekiel 23: 19-21)

"and she lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose emission was like that of stallions." (Ezekiel 23: 21)

"But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?" (II Kings 18:27)

"And after all this the LORD smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease. And it came to pass, that in process of time, after the end of two years, his bowels fell out by reason of sickness: so he died of sore diseases. And his people made no burning for him, like the burning of his fathers." (II Chronicles 12:18-19)

Wherefore my bowels shall sound like a harp for Moab, and mine inward parts for Kirharesh. (Isaiah 16:11)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11)


And you thought Westboro Baptist billboards were bad....

reply to post by FugitiveSoul

I believe in a higher power, whether that power be divine/spiritual/biological/extradimensional I cannot say, as no one can. I don't believe a "god" of infinite wisdom and power would require something as petty as our worship, and I don't believe he'd want us trapped under standards of religion, which limit humans instead of pushing us to advance ourselves and love one another without bias or hatred. He would want us to be free... moral, but free. Religion isn't necessary for any of these things. They actually contradict these ideas.

You could, if you wanted to, say this (which I quoted) is your religion. I think this sort of concept, as you articulated, would be what Jesus had in mind. There is a propensity among a certain percentage of the population (as I mentioned earlier, who want to wear fancy robes and high hats) who are always going to take whatever is the prevailing religious thought and formulate it and institutionalize it, to create positions within it, for the benefit of realizing their latent inner desires.

Originally posted by grey580
reply to post by cetaphobic

 

It doesn't. And when you call them upon it they ignore you completely and keep on talking.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

In that thread Revelationgeneration patently ignores me when I bring up the subject that the bible says alot of things. Some of them not necessarily relevant to our time.

In that thread RG ignores everyone and anyone that is not in agreement with him, much like some of the other "word of God" believers in here.
You cannot educate them, they run away. You cannot debate them, they cover their ears, and you cannot kill them it is against the law.

reply to post by FugitiveSoul


I believe the word originally meant a "pole," as in a pole that was placed into the ground to mark a property boundary. "Heathen" is derived from an Old English word meaning one who builds a hearth, (fireplace) or those who gather around same for warmth. And while we are at it, "Witch" came from an Old English word meaning "one who is wise." The words are harmless, but the Church demonized them, much like the Church demonizes everything not to their liking.

reply to post by cetaphobic


A few observations:

In the Second Letter of Paul to Timothy, Paul begins speaking of matters in the gathering of the faithful for worship. He talks about what prayers are to be used, and even the posture (hands uplifted) of the leader. These things are familiar to the Jews, but some of the new converts are gentile and some may not be as familiar with such things as Paul.

The early Church was a mix of the exact same liturgy as the Jews had used in local synagogues, with the occasional addition of reference to Christ and the addition of the Breaking of Bread. Especially when the gathering was in a private home, the leaders were understandably hesitant to retain the formality of synagogue worship.

So, Paul is providing some groundwork for Timothy to use and to pass on to others.

The context, therefore, of the "permitting no woman to speak" is a reference to the formal liturgy-- the gathering of the faithful for the purpose of worship and instruction. The Jews did not have female rabbis/teachers nor female priests.

Among gentiles, the Jewish Law and ordinances became complicated because it did not always seem to apply to them--especially as converts from the Christian perspective. At the time, the Christian converts were in a gray area-- converting to the Jewish faith and among Jews, but knowing that not all Jews shared their understanding of Christ Jesus. This is why they often worshiped in the synagogue but then met privately in homes for the specifically Christian prayers and worship.

So new questions were coming up. Do we pray in the orans position like the rabbis? Do we repeat the same prayers or only add the new ones regarding Christ being raised from the dead and such? Since the homes are sometimes of widows, do they take the hostess position, and if so, should they take on any leadership role in the liturgy?

Paul is answering. He goes on to say that the overseers ("episkopos" in Greek, and "Bishops" in English) are to be men, having only one wife, and so on. That is perfectly in keeping with Jewish practice.

In modern times, both the Jews and the Christians (and the Muslims, and many others) give much thought and debate about whether there is a spiritual reason for this male-only leadership in liturgy (ordered-equality-- that is, sexes are equal but have different functions verses ordered-sameness-- that is, that the differences in the sexes are merely superficial).

Of course, the dimmest bulbs in the string will take such verses out of that context and declare that women are inferior, must be silent if a man says so, and so on. Certain (primarily North American) non-denominational groups use such quotes as weapons against the married women in their community-- and we all should be outraged (and we all probably are).

However, local and modern aberrations aside, in the greater Church (especially those with some hierarchy to enforce and maintain the faith and practice of its leaders) the discussion is in a strictly liturgical context, the meaning is one of theological understanding and not, at all, a social or cultural one.

This is just mockery.

My favorites are:

Hosea 13:16 "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."

2:23-25 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

10:7-11 And it came to pass, when the letter came to them, that they took the king's sons, and slew seventy persons, and put their heads in baskets, and sent him them to Jezreel. And there came a messenger, and told him, saying, They have brought the heads of the king's sons. And he said, Lay ye them in two heaps at the entering in of the gate until the morning. And it came to pass in the morning, that he went out, and stood, and said to all the people, Ye be righteous: behold, I conspired against my master, and slew him: but who slew all these? Know now that there shall fall unto the earth nothing of the word of the LORD, which the LORD spake concerning the house of Ahab: for the LORD hath done that which he spake by his servant Elijah. So Jehu slew all that remained of the house of Ahab in Jezreel, and all his great men, and his kinsfolks, and his priests, until he left him none remaining.

Exodus 21:7 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.

Leviticus 19:20 "And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free."

Numbers 21:11-14 If you see a pretty woman among the captives and would like her for a wife, then just bring her home and "go in unto her." Later, if you decide you don't like her, you can "let her go."

Numbers 22:13-21 If a man marries, then decides that he hates his wife, he can claim she wasn't a virgin when they were married. If her father can't produce the "tokens of her virginity" (bloody sheets), then the woman is to be stoned to death at her father's doorstep.

Numbers 22:23-24 If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death."

Numbers 22:28-29 If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin, he must pay her father 50 shekels of silver and then marry her.

Judges 11:29-39 When "the spirit of the Lord" comes upon Jephthah, he makes a deal with God: If God will help him kill the Ammonites, then he (Jephthah) will offer to God as a burnt offering whatever comes out of his house to greet him. God keeps his end of the deal by providing Jephthah with "a very great slaughter." But when Jephthah returns, his nameless daughter comes out to greet him (who'd he expect, his wife?). Well, a deal's a deal, so he delivers her to God as a burnt offering -- after letting her spend a couple of months going up and down on the mountains bewailing her virginity.

Judges 19:22-30 After taking in a traveling Levite, the host offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine to a mob of perverts (who want to have sex with his guest). The mob refuses the daughter, but accepts the concubine and they "abuse her all night." The next morning she crawls back to the doorstep and dies. The Levite puts her dead body on an ass and takes her home. Then he chops her body up into twelve pieces and sends them to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

After the Israelites heard the Levite's story (about chopping up his dead concubine and sending her body parts to each tribe of Israel) they vowed not to "give" their daughters to the Benjamites. So now they had a problem: they just finished killing all the Benjamite women and children (Jg 20:48) so there were no women for the surviving Benjamite men to marry. [There were 600 Benjamite men that survived the war with the Israelites. (Jg 20:47)] 21:1-7

To find wives for the Benjamites (they were unwilling to use their own daughters), the other tribes attacked and killed all occupants of a city except for the young virgins. These virgins were then given to the Benjamites for wives. 21:7-23

Here's what the Israelites decide to do. They will go and kill everyone in Jabeshgilead except for the virgin women and give them to the 600 surviving Benjamites. 21:11

So the Israelites killed all the non-virgin women and children in Jabeshgilead, bringing back 400 virgin women to give to the Benjamites. But they were still 200 short. Damn! 21:12-14

Then the elders of the congregation said, How shall we do for wives for them that remain, seeing the women are destroyed out of Benjamin?" 21:16

"We may not give them wives of our daughters: for the children of Israel have sworn, saying, Cursed be he that giveth a wife to Benjamin." 21:18

So they come up with another brilliant plan. Have the Benjamites hide in the bushes and then catch the daughters of Shiloh when they come out to dance. So that's what they did and everyone lived happily ever after. 21:19-23

2 Peter 2:8 Lot, who in Gen.19:8 offers his two virgin daughters to a crowd of angel rapers and later (19:30-38) impregnates them, was a "righteous man."

2 Timothy 3:6-7 In the last days, "silly women" who are "ever learning" will be "led away with divers lusts."

1 Timothy: Honoring widows indeed 5:3-10

You should help a widow only if she:

Has no children or nephews
Is desolate, trusts in God, and prays all the time
Is not living in pleasure
(a widow living in pleasure is the living dead)
Is over 60 years old
Had only one husband
Has raised children
Has lodged strangers
Has washed the saints' feet
Has relieved the afflicted
Has diligently followed every good work

Never help a young widow (one under 60 years old). When they wax wanton against Christ, they'll get married, and be damned to hell for rejecting their faith. Besides, young widows are idle busybodies, wandering around from house to house saying things they shouldn't say. They should get married and have children (though they'll be damned to hell for it). Heck, some of them have already turned aside after Satan. 5:11-15

These are only a few verses I located via skepticsannotatedbible.com... (they also have a section for the Quran and Book of Mormon.)

I'm definitely one of those who stopped being a Christian once I actually read the Bible. How can you (women especially) honestly want to follow the directives of a book this amoral and downright crazy?

reply to post by cetaphobic


As my father in-law started to climb in age, he started to read the bible. I think a lot of people who get up there in age think it well pave their way to heaven. Anyways, he used to quote scriptures at the dinner table which was the one about women being silent and also subservient to men. His wife and daughters would always get into an argument with him, while us guys would sit there and just laugh because we thought the whole thing was crazy!

It's like you said, people pick and choose what they want to believe in the bible or they twist it to suit their beliefs.

Originally posted by atoptreetops
This is just mockery.

It's not mockery when you're quoting exactly what is printed.

reply to post by autowrench


Pagan, from the latin paganus, translates into "rural", "countryside", and/or "rustic", or "a district limited by markers" (the latter is where I believe your "pole" idea comes from. The evolution of "pagan" may have changed over the centuries, and in fact it did, covering everything from non-Christians & non-Jews, to anyone not a combatant in the Roman Empire; it's a blanket term, but it's original meaning remains. "Heathen" originally meant "One who lives on uncultivated land". If I remember correctly, the hearth idea was a misconception and isn't documented, but I may be wrong.
I never mentioned "witches", but since you brought it up:

The word witch is another blanket term, and is also slang, mixing together several ancient words to cover anyone the "church" thought was a threat to their neo-religious views during the time. Let's have a look at some of those source words:

Weik
1.) in regards to sorcery and religious matters. Based on the earlier words "wih'l" from wigle (sorcery), wiglera, wiglere (soothsayer, sorcerer, seer, prophet). There's also "Wik" or "vigja" (holy), from wïhen (to consecrate), and wïch (also Holy). "Weik" stems from "victima" (sacrifice) and "wihl" (craftiness) as well.
Most of the word "witch" seems to stem from the word "wikke", which covers a myriad of meanings:
wikken: to predict.
wicken: to work magic.
wiken, wicken. wigelen and/or wichelen: conjuring or soothsaying
wikker, wichler: fortune-telling
wichelie: Sorcery
wiccian: to work sorcery or bewitch...
and the list goes on, but you get the point.

Weik
2.) from wican (to bend) of that which is weak. A term in reference to basket weaving or furniture weaving, using woods like the wych elm; a practice that is commonly known as "wicker" today. Wichan, wicken (to bend) and vikja/vika (bend/fold).

and then there's the word "Weid":

Weid
1.) To see or to know. Semantically, seeing and knowing are connected in Indo-European languages. Weid derives its meaning from these words:
video videre: to see
saga: female holy person
wissen and/or witan: to know
witken: to exercise one's knowledge
wit: knowledge (which you likely could have guessed)
witega: seer, magician, prophet, sorcerer...
vitugr, vitka, vekka: meaning "wise one"

The etymology is broad, and there are more words which lend their meanings into the evolution of the modern day idea of the "witch", like wat (prophecy), weg (wake), which is likely where the Germanic word wikkjaz comes from, meaning "one who wakes the dead."

Etymology has been a passion of mine for a while now, as you can probably tell, and it's one of the things that gets most historians in trouble when they're trying to decypher ancient writings. Translating an old manuscript is one thing, but then you have to consider the translation of the translation as words lose or change their meanings over time.

Originally posted by FugitiveSoul
reply to post by autowrench

 

Pagan, from the latin paganus, translates into "rural", "countryside", and/or "rustic", or "a district limited by markers" (the latter is where I believe your "pole" idea comes from. The evolution of "pagan" may have changed over the centuries, and in fact it did, covering everything from non-Christians & non-Jews, to anyone not a combatant in the Roman Empire; it's a blanket term, but it's original meaning remains. "Heathen" originally meant "One who lives on uncultivated land". If I remember correctly, the hearth idea was a misconception and isn't documented, but I may be wrong.
I never mentioned "witches", but since you brought it up:

The word witch is another blanket term, and is also slang, mixing together several ancient words to cover anyone the "church" thought was a threat to their neo-religious views during the time. Let's have a look at some of those source words:

Weik
1.) in regards to sorcery and religious matters. Based on the earlier words "wih'l" from wigle (sorcery), wiglera, wiglere (soothsayer, sorcerer, seer, prophet). There's also "Wik" or "vigja" (holy), from wïhen (to consecrate), and wïch (also Holy). "Weik" stems from "victima" (sacrifice) and "wihl" (craftiness) as well.
Most of the word "witch" seems to stem from the word "wikke", which covers a myriad of meanings:
wikken: to predict.
wicken: to work magic.
wiken, wicken. wigelen and/or wichelen: conjuring or soothsaying
wikker, wichler: fortune-telling
wichelie: Sorcery
wiccian: to work sorcery or bewitch...
and the list goes on, but you get the point.

Weik
2.) from wican (to bend) of that which is weak. A term in reference to basket weaving or furniture weaving, using woods like the wych elm; a practice that is commonly known as "wicker" today. Wichan, wicken (to bend) and vikja/vika (bend/fold).

and then there's the word "Weid":

Weid
1.) To see or to know. Semantically, seeing and knowing are connected in Indo-European languages. Weid derives its meaning from these words:
video videre: to see
saga: female holy person
wissen and/or witan: to know
witken: to exercise one's knowledge
wit: knowledge (which you likely could have guessed)
witega: seer, magician, prophet, sorcerer...
vitugr, vitka, vekka: meaning "wise one"

The etymology is broad, and there are more words which lend their meanings into the evolution of the modern day idea of the "witch", like wat (prophecy), weg (wake), which is likely where the Germanic word wikkjaz comes from, meaning "one who wakes the dead."

Etymology has been a passion of mine for a while now, as you can probably tell, and it's one of the things that gets most historians in trouble when they're trying to decypher ancient writings. Translating an old manuscript is one thing, but then you have to consider the translation of the translation as words lose or change their meanings over time.

edit on 27-11-2011 by FugitiveSoul because: (no reason given)

A star for you and your passion. I also dive into the maze of etymology from time to time to discern the truth of particular things. I stand by all summerian words.

It is a verse talking about teachings in the church. A woman should not teach about christianity. You should just go make your own t-shirt like i am going to do with this verse on it.

reply to post by Equidae

And I don't care when people say that Jesus means you don't have to do the sacrifices any more. The fact is that God thought it was cool at one time is bad enough. He also seems to have a strange obsession with virgins, and smiting women for the deeds they didn't commit, or smiting then alone for deeds they and men have committed.

Or you can figure none of it actually happened but makes for a nice story for some people into that sort of thing. And one could come away from hearing these stories thinking that avoiding friendly relations with neighboring tribes is not a good thing, and that making war and appropriating all their land was a good thing, thus increasing the general wealth of the kingdom and prosperity to the royals and the priestly class, who by the way would have been in charge of such stories being written and circulated.

reply to post by cetaphobic


Please protest some more with your sign. Since your a pagan I'm sure your in a position to be hating on the bible. What's the matter has the truth hurt your pride? why do you feel the need to attack our faith... Is it because Moses also exposed the pagan God's as being false when he brought Yahweh's wrath to Egypt?

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by cetaphobic

 

Please protest some more with your sign. Since your a pagan I'm sure your in a position to be hating on the bible. What's the matter has the truth hurt your pride? why do you feel the need to attack our faith... Is it because Moses also exposed the pagan God's as being false when he brought Yahweh's wrath to Egypt?

edit on 27-11-2011 by RevelationGeneration because: (no reason given)

As I recall from another thread you proposed wicca as satanic evil and how is that not an attack on another faith so suck it up. I see you try and wrap things up in candy coated poison.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Equidae

 

And I don't care when people say that Jesus means you don't have to do the sacrifices any more. The fact is that God thought it was cool at one time is bad enough. He also seems to have a strange obsession with virgins, and smiting women for the deeds they didn't commit, or smiting then alone for deeds they and men have committed.

Or you can figure none of it actually happened but makes for a nice story for some people into that sort of thing. And one could come away from hearing these stories thinking that avoiding friendly relations with neighboring tribes is not a good thing, and that making war and appropriating all their land was a good thing, thus increasing the general wealth of the kingdom and prosperity to the royals and the priestly class, who by the way would have been in charge of such stories being written and circulated.

Well said, Good Sir !

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by cetaphobic

 

Please protest some more with your sign. Since your a pagan I'm sure your in a position to be hating on the bible. What's the matter has the truth hurt your pride? why do you feel the need to attack our faith... Is it because Moses also exposed the pagan God's as being false when he brought Yahweh's wrath to Egypt?

edit on 27-11-2011 by RevelationGeneration because: (no reason given)

Kind of funny bringing up that story since it was God who hardened Pharaoh's heart to make him not want to let the Israelites go. So God made the guy enslaving his people not want to let them go so he could unleash horrible plagues against said guy's people? The only truth contained there seems to be that Yahweh is a nutcase.

reply to post by Equidae

Well said, Good Sir

Now that it is too late to edit, it seems I got lost in my sentence logic a bit but hopefully people can still get the intention of what I was doing.
The basic point is that people read something in the Old Testament and somehow, because the word, god, is in there, take it as an accurate portrayal of God. I really have to wonder when I see that. I have started to use that as a criteria to gauge people's sanity.