The End?Or Only The End Of The Beginning?

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps,
the end of the beginning."

The famous words of Winston Churchill of course but are these words just as relevant,perhaps even more so, today than back then??

If we follow the Second World War timetable then we are only at the point at which Hitler invaded and over ran Czechoslovakia.There,as you all remember,Sudetan Germans lined the streets just as Shi'ite Muslims line the streets of Baghdad today.
This was also the point that the League of Nations was shown to be impotent and powerless,today we see the UN in the same position.

Following Hitler's invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1938 there was a short pause and consolidation before Germany pushed into Poland in Sept 1939,the point at which the world had drawn a line.
How many of us, Pro-War and Anti-War, fully expect Bush to take advantage of the present situation and move on into either Syria,Iran,or North Korea?
If we follow the WW2 timeline then it will be at this point,attacking another nation,that France,Germany,Russia,and China will stand against the USA.I doubt very much if the UK will still be standing shoulder to shoulder with the USA if they pick another target.

This was the reason getting International consensus was so important.

Anyway,I have noticed not a small amount of euphoria,even gloating from those who feel vindicated by recent pictures from Iraq.So,perhaps,it is timely to remind posters here of another famous quote by Winston Churchill.

"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes.
History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it."

Totally agree JB. Same as I was saying in my thread. This is only the beginning. It's going to get much more interesting from here on in.

I only hope you are not correct, and the problems with Syria and Iran can be solved politically, and jointly, instead of invasion. Unfortunately, privately, I think you are correct.

However, I don't think we'll see the others jump in so fast, especially against us. Lets hope that we don't have to find out....

Bush said �we will fight against all the dictators ruling this earth �
(he is not gonna do it talking) so expect much more fireworks than these 2 months of irak...

Yes is getting to the end of their plan,
the begining of our nightmare
and the end of rationalism.
Now all is expressed in nationalism, patriotism or Liberals, democrats, republicans....

All to separate us, is the end of the human been, we gonna start a new age of control, control on the population, vigilance, law enforcement, unjustice, hipercapitalism, polarizated social classes much more than before, contamination, rests of nuclear, and bioquimic bs such as depleted uranium and stuff like that...

The earth is gonna explote, or at least that is the feeling we get, but is just the final chaos before the final
order, we have just one chance guys...

wadabout north korea.

. It's going to get much more interesting from here on in.

I agree. I just hope that this ends with Iraq. But I know it wont. Get ready boys and Girls. WW3 is coming soon.

got my duct tape and everything...

*holds up a tiny Wile E. Coyote umbrella*

you think WW3 is coming soon?
what countries do you think will be involved?

JB, so you're comparing the US to Nazi Germany? Or am I not following you. If so though, that's quite a stretch, don't you think?

[Edited on 10-4-2003 by Bob88]

Here is an article I would recommend

Consspiracies and Kings

There is no reason to insult Americans simply because they feel there government is right. All these issues about this country. That you seem to present as real is what is in reality being discovered in your neck of the woods. Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq all excellent examples of this. Stalin and Hitler are as well good examples from the past.

When has clear evidence as what has been found in the Eastern Hemisphere as atrocities, ever been identified in the US (last 100years) against civilian populations? Do you have any idea how many people are requesting immigration status in the US (if we agreed to let them all in our population would match of exceed that of China?

To be certain the entire population of this country is made up of people (besides the Indians) who lived in your part of the world. And to be certain, all the Caucasian came here. To get away from the
behavior inherent in that hemisphere.

Originally posted by Bob88
JB, so you're comparing the US to Nazi Germany? Or am I not following you. If so though, that's quite a stretch, don't you think?

Naturally,I don't think that Americans are Nazis.I hope and believe that those terrible lessons have been learn't.
The driving forces and problems that drove Nazi Germany to conquest exist today in the USA.In both countries we can see a belief in a destiny which has little or no respect for geography.
Hitlers basic anthem was "Why should the German people be denied what their strength can take?"Is this really any different from the Pentagon doctrine now.

One united the German speaking people rallying behind the same perceived cause.Today it is the English speaking people.
Both rely on military prowess and patriotism and both have rewritten their early history.The Germans did so with the Aryan myth the Americans with the myth of the Wild West.

The Reichstag fire galvanised the German people against the Jewish enemy this was used to later disguise territorial incursions in Eastern Europe as revenge for a cowardly act.The World Trade Centre has united Americans against Muslims.

Is Bush as evil as Hitler??To answer that question it would be wise to remember that the German people didn't think Hitler was as evil as Hitler.

Very interesting John one alternative to your comment is perhaps nothings actually changed in the Easter Hemisphere after WWII. Given all the events that have been discovered to date in respect genocidal leaders.

Fact are facts and given that reality, all the efforts pertaining to assessing the US as the dark side. As well
as based in ignorance does seem schizophrenic.

Perhaps it is not though, rather could it be the east is in fact the dark side. A world order which would prefer to treat terrorism as an act or war rather than the behavior of criminals? People who think that semantics are more relevant than the fact this man was the first since WW1 to use chemical weapons?

Finding tortured souls by the 100,000s in the Eastern Hemisphere, that�s ok. Cause the real enemy is a country on the other side of the planet that is just above 200 years old.

Hitler�s Germany found someone to blame for there problems John, who have you found to blame for yours???

Toltec.

Nothing changed in the Eastern Hemisphere after WW2 ??

This statement is an example of both selective memory and selective geography.

There are two reasons Hitler is demonised.Lets separate them.

Hitler the Anti-semite,the architect of the Holocaust.
and Hitler the imperialist,the invader of countries who precipitated the Second World War.

The average Briton and American knew nothing of The Final Solution yet he was hated because his actions had wreaked havoc in Europe and the World.

I am not suggesting Bush has genocidal tendencies only that if he continues to seek to solve problems in the world by militaristic means,it is likely to head the same way.

As for your final comment."Who do I blame my problems on?"
Well I sense this is supposed to be an insult in some way because you believe my own comments are an attack on the USA directly and You indirectly.You would be wrong in thinking that.

But to answer your question.I live in a very beautiful part of the UK.I live quite comfortably with my wife and baby daughter.In short I am quite content.So you see I don't really have any problems to blame on anybody.
This allows me to view things dispassionately and therefore more clearly.

I wonder if your obvious patriotism means you would defend the actions of you country no matter what it did in your name.Certainly there were many in Germany during the 1930's and 40's who did exactly that.

Originally posted by JCDenton
1) you think WW3 is coming soon?

2) what countries do you think will be involved?

1) YES !

2) The WHOLE world !

Originally posted by John bull 1
I am not suggesting Bush has genocidal tendencies only that if he continues to seek to solve problems in the world by militaristic means,it is likely to head the same way.

There are many parallels between the recent events and legislation in the United States and in early Nazi Germany, no doubt. But parallels can be found anywhere. The validation of the parallels comes, in my opinion, from the fact that the Bush administration plus current military command are willing to deceive their own people in order to achieve their goals.
(forgery, propaganda and "evidence" against Hussein)

That makes them dangerous in the long run

Am very happy to hear John that you are so comfortable but, while you can get your passport and jump into your car to get first hand evidence of genocide I cannot.

As such I do find such an implication insulting and would suggest that in your case you take a trip and bring your camera.

No John if in my part of the world Genocide was an issue I would be very concerned. Just as concerned
as I am about your part of the world.

John here everyone gets three chances, it�s a tradition which even affects our penal system interestingly enough. Three countries which support Genocide as a solution to achieving political means, brings up the
issue. Of how many more countries in the Eastern Hemisphere have thousands in unmarked graves?



What is to be done about this issue John??

America is not going to claim authority over Iraq the way Germany claimed authority over all the countries it occupied. America will stay as long as it takes to make sure all of Sadaam's forces are no longer a threat and a government elected by the people is installed. Then we can leave. Now if during that period of time another country does something to threaten that stability then America will deal with them as well. If that makes America seem like Nazi's then so be it.

Moku, the evidence against Hussein may be new and contrived to you, but there are some of us who do not wait until CNN and Fox gets around to telling us things. The facts are the facts, and have been before they were clearly stated.

As far as trying to draw parallels between the U.S. and Nazi Germany, sure, you can do that. It's easy. You use similarities that back up your supposition and disregard any that are contrary. I needn't tell you, you've already demonstrated your ability to do that.
We'll see what happens, won't we? I imagine it'll be like it has always been. We go and do what needs to be done, spend alot of money rebuilding those who asked for a butt-kicking (this time it was a regime and not the people, so that's good) and then later find that they have turned against us - again.

If you notice, Maku, we've been pretty steady at 50 states for many decades, now.

Thank you Thomas Crowne for pointing out that of all the wars we've helped out in we haven't gained ONE PIECE of land for our efforts. That doesn't make much sense if we are oil hungry American's seeking global domination does it?

The United States are invading foreign nations and ask nothing in return. Not even a "friendly" oil policy. You arent serious Thomas

I strongly doubt the United States will pay (the word is "pay", not "invest" !) as much for Iraq's reconstruction as they spent on its destruction. And if a tiny country like Kuwait can ask 200 billion in war debt from Iraq, how much will the brave and enduring laborious iraqi masses ask from the US ?



[Edited on 12-4-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]