Now what a story this is! ..what a doctor said infront of an abortion

Originally posted by heineken

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by heineken

 

So in case when only mother dies, you would let her die? Even when mother can make another child, but child cannot make another mother?

Thats just crazy.

that child got the right to live...if the mother dies..nature took her away..if you abort the child..doctor's hand took him away

let nature do

Naturalistic fallacy (natural = good, unnatural = bad) + omission bias fallacy (judging harmful active choice as worse than equally harmful passive choice, just because it is more active).

"Letting nature do" is evil, when you can help the human with more value (mother) survive.

reply to post by Hendrix92TheUniverse


In the first trimester, it is not a baby, it is a foetus.. there's a medical difference, thus the terminology... it isn't an individual yet and hasn't developed it's own circulatory system until about 5 or 6 weeks. It is essentially just a cellular extension, (or better termed a self induced parasite) up until the end of the first trimester, and more correctly until the mid to end of the second trimester.

Brain cells also start to develop once it has developed it's own circulation, but there is no brain function until the 20th week.

You will only be charged twice if the foetus was in the third trimester.

Originally posted by puzzlesphere
reply to post by Hendrix92TheUniverse

 

You will only be charged twice if the foetus was in the third trimester.

edit on 10-11-2011 by puzzlesphere because: (no reason given)

I take your reply as fact, and state again, that we need to talk in terms of facts. Thank you.

reply to post by Hendrix92TheUniverse


Just edited my reply... I also love facts, and do my best to confirm them.

Cheers

It is disturbing that you see the same people over and over in abortion threads so passionately defending the murdering of babies.

I have shown in other threads that a "fetus" is biologically considered a living human being...just like any other life in biology...a new "life" begins at conception. This is basic fact you can find in any biology book.

But what I have learned is that some demented people are so hell bent on supporting the killing of babies...they will deny scientific facts for this argument to switch over to "philosophy"...and then outright reject and ridicule a religous opposing view...even though that is also "philosophy". My position is neither...it is backed by science and biology....abortion is ending a human life...thus it is MURDER.


But some people seem to just have a passion for killing babies...I've come to the conclusion that you can't speak logically to people who are so demented that they think killing babies is justified becuase their government has told them it is "legal".

Originally posted by ICEKOHLD
i have had an abortion, or been party to one (she decided to). know what? best damned decision we ever made. now...we're not both strapped for cash, stressed out all the time, hating each other and what our lives have become like all the other people who got pregnant in their early 20s accidentally.

go ahead...accuse me of murder! at least i'll be able to afford the lawyer to defend myself cuz i don't spend all my money on a kid that i regret having when i did. i think it's better for a couple to abort the fetus from the jump than have the kid and the kid grow up neglected and not feeling as loved as he/she should. and creating another orphan isn't very pious, either.

so...it really is a toss up. i mean me personally...i would rather be aborted and never know that i wasn't wanted than grow up with parents who wish they would've waited longer or not had me period. i don't think the human race is in danger of running out of babies anytime soon. we're also the only animals that care for our lame young. all the other animals leave the weak/lame to die or kill it themselves to put it out of it's misery. so...perhaps, we could argue that our soft spot for babies could be a weakness when compared to other species.

Exactly.

Some people just arnt equipped mentaly to handle kids. Me being one of them.

Tho i've never had an abortion myself..... i take precautions - the pill and condoms. There's allways a chance BOTH will fail and i'll end up pregnant - in which case i'd be off to go get one.

I dont have the time, patience nor care to have a child. Ontop of that - i dont have the money or a suitble home for a child. the thought of getting pregnant, realy does scare the # out of me, to the point where i have little doubts i'd make stupid decisions to try and get my body to have a misscarriage by stopping eating, and the stress from knowing that im pregnant in itself.. This is how much the thought scares me, and i dont realy think there is any way i could explain to a bunch of "prolifers" that.

It's sad tho, that those "prolifers" would actualy be happier for me to have the child, and put it up for adoption, where in this day and age the chances of it growing up and being abused/sexualy abused by the organisations that are meant to care for them are more so high.




My parents waited untill they had finished paying off their mortgage, car, and had enough money for my mum to take time off work to have me. They were prepared, well educated and both had made the decision to have me.

This is how i personaly feel alot of people should go about having a child, rather than having one for the hell of it, or to get government grants, or child support payments. So many people, including the "prolifers" dont give a # about the child or what happens to it - all they're concernd about is that the deicion the potential mother makes is what they want them to make.

I think I missed the bit where humans aren't a part of nature. Why is everybody acting like humans are unnatural and special? We are a part of nature, and we perform abortions. Do you think if bears and cats had our complex brain structures and opposing thumbs that they wouldn't create technology as we did and that they wouldn't eventually perform abortions? It seems to me like a lot of people are pro-life because they're afraid of death and they don't realize that death is equally as important as life. Life is NOT "sacred."

reply to post by puzzlesphere


This source says brain function begins at 40-43 days.

I also found this.

"The nervous system develops from the neural plate which appears during the third week of development. About six weeks after conception, the child's brain is sending out impulses which control body functions, and the nervous system is controlling the child's movements. At seven weeks the unborn child responds to touch. At twelve weeks, the brain is fully formed, and of couse it continues to grow as the child grows. It is unmistakeably evident that the tiny growing fetus responds to its environment and knows when it is injured. If injured, the small child exhibits an awareness of intense pain."

To be fair, I also found plenty of sources that say they don't feel pain until 24-26 weeks. I think the science is not conclusive on this issue, so why risk torturing the little guys?

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


A foetus isn't considered a human being until there is brain function. There is still discussion around this in the scientific community, however the majority of publications that I have come across in a very short time concur with the definition of a human being, being when the foetus develops brain function. This is the general consensus which the majority agree with, which is why abortion is legal in most countries and states, since governments take their cues from specialists on matters such as this.

Yes, it can be considered the initial stages of a new life at conception, but it is not a sentient being until brain function develops. Up until that point, it is essentially a parasitic organism surviving purely off the woman's body.

You can disagree with it all you want, and at some point in the future, it may even be made illegal again (though unlikely any time soon in most countries), and not without some huge ideological shifts.

It has nothing to do with "killing babies", which is an emotionally charged phrase; it has to do with the rights of the woman and what is happening to her body. Third trimester abortions are generally illegal, as that is the point that it can definitively be said that the foetus is viable.

I don't really agree with second trimester termination, unless for a serious medical reason.

First trimester termination is the right of the woman.

Why is everyone so concerned about abortion?
People kill people every day. Our tax money is used to kill people. Our soldiers kill people, and there is no doubt that they are very often innocent people. Not fetuses, although there are undoubtedly fetuses bombed as well.
What a bunch of hypocrisy unless we condemn all killing.

reply to post by heineken


I just don't even know where to begin. Quite frankly, don't even know why people get sucked up into this discussion anymore since neither side is very successful at swaying the other. I can view both sides from a (possibly) unique perspective. I am adopted, I have children and I have had an abortion. I knew I was adopted growing up, back in the day they were 'closed' adoptions. As I got older I was bombarded with shows like Oprah that insisted I (as an adopted child) had a "hole" in my life or was "missing" something because I didn't know my birthmom. I did eventually meet some people in my birth family and guess what? I realized I never had a 'hole' in my life at all! I looked through photo albums of biological relatives and, wow, it smacked me between the eyes....these are not 'my people"! What a disservice we have all done placing so much emphasis on "blood" relatives. Blood relatives contribute the DNA, which accounts for the color of your hair or skin, some of the characteristics you have, or perhaps the talents you have, but environment plays an often misunderstood role in "how a person turns out", whatever that means, lol.
Having said that, there's no doubt that the adoption/child welfare laws in the U.S. are broken with few who care enough to "fix" them. There are, by most accounts, approximately 500,000 children currently waiting to be adopted. They are decidedly NOT white infants. MOST are minority kids between the ages of 5 and 18. Most infertile couples don't want to adopt them because they're afraid of the "baggage" that comes with them. Define that for yourself, it comes from a myriad of scenarios. Adoption of a U.S. born baby can cost a couple $50,000 or more for one baby, more for adopting a baby from a foreign country. Then there's always the huge and looming possibility that the mother will change her mind. Adoption in this country has a bad name, has bad laws backing it up and is by far not the most popular "choice" for women who find themselves dealing with an unwanted pregnancy.
Interestingly enough, depending on which study you'd like to look at, the majority of women choosing to have an abortion are not unwed teenagers. The age group seems to consist mostly of 20-yr olds with a surprisingly large number of 30-40 yr olds. Could that possibly be because they have a better understanding of what taking care of a child entails? I don't know. Whether or not a person believes it is wrong is kind of beside the point. If you think it's wrong, don't have one. I love my children dearly, wouldn't change how many I have, but at the time I made the choice I did to have an abortion, it was, after very careful consideration, the only realistic and responsible choice for me. I don't have nightmares every night, contrary to popular Christian propaganda pamphlets.
I personally can't understand a woman choosing to abort a baby in, lets say, the 7th or 8th month. For that matter, any time after they start wiggling around in there. It's my personal opinion that abortion should be illegal in all states after the 12th week. That's plenty of time to make a "choice". If women are so adamant about having their choices, here's a thought, chose not to have sex. Again, that's just my personal opinion and I don't live with any illusions that I share that opinion with anybody, nor do I try to beat people over the head with it.
Sorry if this is just incoherent babble. I was trying to hit all the big points, lol.

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I would be completely against this... If they had a developed brain and nerve endings to feel pain. Plus there are 7 BILLION PEOPLE ON EARTH NOW . It sounds cold and terrible I know but if we can prevent people from, well, happening, I think we should (as long as they arent developed enough to feel pain). What do we do when we run out of room or food on Earth?

reply to post by puzzlesphere

A foetus isn't considered a human being until there is brain function.

As declared by our government...not science.


Go read any biology book on when "life" begins in ANY animal or plant...it is when sperm fertilizes egg and forms a zygote. If you answer "when brain function is present" on a biology test...YOU WILL FAIL THAT CLASS.

It's like a play book with you people who like to defend the murder of babies....right to "sentient" life...LOL. Which is coming from a PHILOSOPHICAL argument...no science.


Stick with science....new life begins at conception...any other answer will get you a big fail in any biology course.

reply to post by Troofseeker


Be wary of your wording. Big difference between saying you are of an idiotic mindset and calling me an idiot outright.

And I simply do NOT care. Call my cold hearted, whatever you want. I will not rise, or care, or shiver, or blubber, or cry little QQ tears.

Now, are you running to a sewage reclaim plant to collect tampons, condoms and saving all those unborn babies? You know where the massive, huge, planet sized flaw in your arguement is? You're not saving all the sperm and ovum.

What? I hear you're saying but but they're not babies. So you DO draw a line, how heartless.

You are the weakest link.

reply to post by Dystopiaphiliac

Stop spreading blatant lies. If you supported scientific fact then you should know legally aborted fetuses did not have the neurological connections necessary to feel

Sorry...but biology is not a lie.

And your "argument" suggest that if I kill you and you don't feel it...then it isn't a crime

Murder has nothing to do with "feeling pain"...it has to do with ending the life of another human being.


You can call them "lies" all you want...but these are facts...the biological definition of the beginning of "LIFE" is conception. Abortion is ending that "LIFE"...hence it is MURDER.

I'm sorry if that makes you feel uncomfortable...on second thought...I'm not....it should make you feel uncomfortable and angry that millions of babies are MURDERED by their own (heartless) mothers.

What's the ONE topic that so-called progressives/liberals/peace loving don't-harm-a-fly anti-killing people and the 1% illuminati/NWO/bilderbergs have in common...? Abortion

Glad to see you guys have stuff in common

You've been co-opted into supporting their eugenics agenda. Condolences, you've been killing innocent children in the name of freedom and women's rights for 50 years.

Maybe you should try denying ignorance.

reply to post by luciddream


Yes like all those Africans that the Christian missionaries told that contraception was sin, so they are bringing up children in poverty to face a quick death from starvation and disease.

Mmmhmmm, let's let nature take it's course. I'll be seeing you when TSHTF running as I chase you down for food. (sarcasm, no direct personal threat or malicious intent implied)

The population on the planet is OUT of control and you want to let all those 14/15 year old kids have kids of their own huh? Great thinking!

Originally posted by banishedfromthisarea

Originally posted by BO XIAN

Oh, you're right - you darn smart person you. And, so you would say that in Hitler's Germany, killing Jews was ok because it wasn't murder as state law didn't define it as such. I get that all the time by religious folks who want their right to kill. In order to not be nonsensical, you cannot refer a commandment to be interpreted by state law.

It is

God's standard, criteria and evaluation

that counts.

I have no doubt that God considered Hitler's murder of so many innocents to be murder.

Nevertheless, God also gives the state the task of punishing evil doers like thieves and murderers.

Humans and society are complicated.

There are no fool-proof ways to make rules which apply strictly, fairly, 100% equally in all cases. Things are too complicated.

That's a big reason that God focuses on the heart.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


As I stated, and agreed with you, technically "life" does begin with fertilisation, but that has nothing to do with the definition of a human being... there is a decided difference between basic life and a fully developed organism.

It does have some philosophical connotations, as does a lot of science, (philosophy and science mix heavily at the limit of our scientific understanding) which is why communities over time have developed definitions in relation to the embryonic cycle (not the government directly, though they have legislated on those majority consensus definitions).