The Insane claims of the PA

I really hope every adult here can understand how completely unjustified these recent claims of the PA are. They are attempting - through the antisemitic UNESCO - to lay claim to historically Jewish sites, which can be historically verified to predate Islam, and thus are primarely the heritage of followers of Judaism. Only secondarily and vicariously can the sites being sought by the PA, be treated as holy by Muslims and Christians. The facts are, these sites were first holy to Jews. For thousands of years prior to the onset of Islam in the holy land - late 7th century CE, and even with Christians, the sites should be understood as being the original heritage of Jews.

The PAs total lack of respect for Jews and Judaism in the land of Israel is beyond antisemitic. It is virulent propaganda which UNESCO is more then willing to legitimize.

Earlier this year UNESCO had the mindboggling mendacity to claim that Maimonides - Jewish Rabbi and Physician, personal physician to Saladin, author of many medical books aswell as the compendium of Jewish law, the Mishnah Torah, aswell as the philosophical classic "Guide for the perplexed, which was read by many ancient philosophers and kings, inluding, avicenna, St Thomas Aquinas, Frederick the II of Hohenstauffen, this greatest of Jewish thinkers, this Famous man known in both Jewish and Non-Jewish cirles, the UNESCO has the audacity to claim, was a "Muslim"! This historical revision is simply criminal. Here too, people should be on high alert against UNESCOs completely unfair and biased arbitration of what constitutes a Jewish holy site in Jerusalem and Israel.

Some points in the article:

Old City walls and excavation work in the vicinity of the Al-Aqsa Mosque were part of an attempt to change the Islamic and Arabic character of the city and steal and destroy antiquities.

This is pure Orwellian logic. How does excavation outside the city walls and in the "vicinity" of th Al Aqsa mosque fair against the Waqfs own excavations INSIDE the Dome of the Rock - the site of the old Jewish Temples - and its deliberate discarding and removing of evidence of any Jewish Temple - which is the official claim of the Waqf and PA, that the Jewish Temple is A fable. This despite th fact that Abd Al-Malik, the first Ummayad "caliph" and builder of the Dome of the Rock, named his own son - in an attempt to recreate the dynamic found in the Hebraic tradition - Sulaymon (Somonon) ie; he was david "servant of the King", who gathered the materials to build the temple, while his son was Solomon.

This is something every archeologist world wide has complained about, Israeli Archeologists especially.

She said that the PA was now working toward “restoring” stolen antiquities that were allegedly transferred to Israel in violation of international law. The Palestinians are coordinating their moves with the Arab countries and other countries that voted in favor of the membership bid at UNESCO, Daibes

It really frightens me what else the PA will make claim to. They claim the tomb of the patriarchs belongs to them, which is so unbelievably absurd. First, its called the Tomb of the PATRIARCHS - ie; Abraham, ISAAC AND JACOB. The absurdity is that there is documentation of this tradition into pre-Islamic times. What could possibly be the PAs justification in making this claim?

Another claim is the Tomb of Joseph, Tomb of Samuel...What else will the PA lay claim to?? Seemingly everything historically Jewish is theirs. As even taught in the Gaza strip, Israel doesnt exist, Jewish history is Zionist propaganda, the Jewish people, as a distinct people, is apparently a fable. How can anyone know about this, and contenance it without being offended by its invidiousness? How can this not bother anyone? Its pure lies. Its unfair. It shows, clearly, the type of of agenda the PA is running.

Link

Islam loves to "try" to rewrite history through others, as for the most part, this ideology has not won much of anything and thus can't actually say, " The victorious write the history books."

Islam also converts religious sites of regions they hold sway over and from then on, "A islamic Holy site" forever more. Who cares what it was originally intended for?

They're getting good at spreading propaganda and painting themselves as victims.

No offense, OP, but I am utterly sick and tired of the nonsense going on over there in the name of God.

It's like a couple of little kids fighting over a spot on the couch or in the car. "I was here first!" It is total insanity. The only difference between the Israel / Palestinian thing is, people are getting butchered.

We have our own problems in this country without fussing over this childish nonsense. No wonder so many people are abandoning the religions that originated in that area. I'll just stick to the 10 Commandments, and hope that the US doesn't get sucked into their silliness any more than we already are.

So the Talmud speaks of the Tomb of the Patriachs - written circa 200 CE.

King Herod the Great built a large, rectangular enclosure over the caves, the only fully surviving Herodian structure. Herod's building, with 6-foot-thick stone walls made from stones that were at least 3 feet tall and sometimes reach a length of 24 feet, did not have a roof. Archæologists are not certain where the original entrance to the enclosure was located, or even if there was one.[

And yet you ask a Muslim about this site, they'll say the Jews "stole it" from Islam, when clearly, historically, it was sacred to Judaism some 1500byears before Arabs ever heard about it.

Just craziness. Why cant these people be rational, and fair?? If they want to pay their respects to Abraham, who is said to be buried there, they may. But to completely ignore the historicity of this site, the fact they became knowledgeable of it through the Jews, is obnoxious. Its like biting the hand that feeds you; you were drawn into the Hebraic tradition through the Jews, and now you deny them even a connection to their own traditions.

Thats like Muslims coming to America, rewriting American history, arrogating famous figures, names, calling them Muslims, and then denying Americans any connection to George Washington etc.

reply to post by TDawgRex


So true! I think that this is just another sign on the nearing end times. I have even heard people on TV say that devout christians are as bad as jihad muslims. One of them was Rosie. She made a comment toward that effect. I've yet to hear of jihadist christians who go around doing mass killings and suicide bombings. But, back to the subject matter, anyone who follows the teachings of the Bible knows that God gave Israel to the Jews. It is their promised land.

The one thing that amazes me the most is that in a world where more and more people keep insisting that we need to be more attuned to one another and live in harmoney as a world not just a country etc etc. We are surely stuck on the whole religious aspect of things.

1. The Bible teaches that we shall not judge another for their beliefs, but yet Christians are constantly criticizing Islam and other religions. How is that not being judgemental?

2. The biggest gripe for ages has been that the land is holy to both religions. Both the Koran and the Bible share stories of how events played out. Both of them mention the same men with the exception of the Bible listing Mohammad. These religions all in all are almost mirror images of one another. Christianity has been interpreted as force your beliefs on others; ie the dark ages, the inquistion, and manifest destiny. Yet when radical groups of Islam do the same it is somehow characterized as all of Islam. Do you believe that all Christians are responsible for the aforementioned atrocities carried out in god's name?

3. I agree with the other poster when he said I am sick of listening to them behave like children and they are absolutely right. What is wrong with sharing the holy ground? I'm not saying that either one is right or wrong. I am just saying what is wrong with that? What is wrong with extending your hand to the enemy (As I believe from my readings Jesus would do) Invite them in and maybe they will see the truth and convert which is what the bible ultimately teaches. To show them how they are wrong and lead them on the right path. Not force it down there throats. According to the bible it is your duty to try and convert the non-believers not force them to convert.

In closing the biggest problem in that region is the inability for either side to settle there differences and share. There fore they behave like spoiled little children in a park that both want to swing on the same swing. This is the mentality that we as humans need to get over our own petty selfishness or greed.

reply to post by Phantom28804

Both the Koran and the Bible share stories of how events played out.

Kuranic legends are DERIVED from the Torah of the Jews. Where else do you think they learned of David, Moses, Abraham??? They did not have this tradition themselves, but rather, learned of it through the Jews who lived in Arabia, Mesopotomaia and Persia.

Thus, the Kuran can not be considered an accurate depiction of events chronicled in the Bible anymore than history books on WWII could be retold "more accurately" 1500 years after the event. The Dead Sea scrolls which date back to 200 BCE predate the Kuran by about 1000 years (The Kuran didnt make its first appearance until the end of the 8th century CE). The narratives are the exact same as those told in contemporary Torah scrolls.

So, to treat the Kuran as having an equal claim is absurd. It is nothing but an arrogation of a much more ancient tradition belonging to a different people/religion. Im not saying Muslims cant enjoy a fellowship with Jews and Christians, but at the bare minunum, for the sake of God, show some respect for those "people of the book", particularly the Jews. Honor the fact that you recieved the wisdom and traditions of your fathers through the traditions of Judaism.

Especially when considering that the Kuranic legends of Mohommad were probably fabricated two centuries after the "fact" - when the Kuran was written - and the "history" of Mohommad was retold, by Tabari, and other 8th/9th century Islamic Historgraphers. Coins from the 7th century, from Damascus, Persia and elsewhere, from supposedly "muslim times", bear crosses - Christian iconography, leading many scholars to believe that the beginning of the Arabian era - ie; what usually interpreted as being the beginning of Islam, was actually the continuation of the Sassanian Kingdom in Persia, through an Arab dynasty, and that these Arabs, like Abd Al Malik, Mu'awaya, etc, were eastern CHRISTIANS who preached a different, non-trinitarian brand of Christianity. Where Muhommad was understood in the sense of "chosen/sacred", and really refered to Jesus, as the chosen of Allah....

Very obscure the early history of Islam that it seems that history is not as Muslim histiographers portrayed it to be. Especially considering the thousands of coins from those eras dont match the history as told by muslim historians.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Phantom28804

 

Both the Koran and the Bible share stories of how events played out.

Kuranic legends are DERIVED from the Torah of the Jews. Where else do you think they learned of David, Moses, Abraham??? They did not have this tradition themselves, but rather, learned of it through the Jews who lived in Arabia, Mesopotomaia and Persia.

Thus, the Kuran can not be considered an accurate depiction of events chronicled in the Bible anymore than history books on WWII could be retold "more accurately" 1500 years after the event. The Dead Sea scrolls which date back to 200 BCE predate the Kuran by about 1000 years (The Kuran didnt make its first appearance until the end of the 8th century CE). The narratives are the exact same as those told in contemporary Torah scrolls.

So, to treat the Kuran as having an equal claim is absurd. It is nothing but an arrogation of a much more ancient tradition belonging to a different people/religion. Im not saying Muslims cant enjoy a fellowship with Jews and Christians, but at the bare minunum, for the sake of God, show some respect for those "people of the book", particularly the Jews. Honor the fact that you recieved the wisdom and traditions of your fathers through the traditions of Judaism.

Especially when considering that the Kuranic legends of Mohommad were probably fabricated two centuries after the "fact" - when the Kuran was written - and the "history" of Mohommad was retold, by Tabari, and other 8th/9th century Islamic Historgraphers. Coins from the 7th century, from Damascus, Persia and elsewhere, from supposedly "muslim times", bear crosses - Christian iconography, leading many scholars to believe that the beginning of the Arabian era - ie; what usually interpreted as being the beginning of Islam, was actually the continuation of the Sassanian Kingdom in Persia, through an Arab dynasty, and that these Arabs, like Abd Al Malik, Mu'awaya, etc, were eastern CHRISTIANS who preached a different, non-trinitarian brand of Christianity. Where Muhommad was understood in the sense of "chosen/sacred", and really refered to Jesus, as the chosen of Allah....

Very obscure the early history of Islam that it seems that history is not as Muslim histiographers portrayed it to be. Especially considering the thousands of coins from those eras dont match the history as told by muslim historians.

So out of everything I said you find the one comparison to Christianity and Islam as offensive, but had nothing to say on the rest? That alone says alot. I am not saying anything that should be offensive to god as god is a forgiving and loving god isn't that what the bible teaches? I am not a follower of either faith. In fact I steer away from any and all organized religions as I think the entire concept of organized religion is flawed, but I find it irritating when followers of a belief dictate the rules of they're religion but tend to not follow them themselves.

reply to post by Phantom28804


Youre over simplifying a very complex issue.

Would it be ideal that Jews, Christians and Muslims forget the dogma and accept each others differences, in charity, compassion and brotherly love? Of COURSE! I am ALL for that.

Problem is, if my opponent isnt at all interested in that, what am i supposed to do?? Islam - through the PA - is now laying claim to historically Jewish sites. Not simply arrogating them, but DENYING that Judaism has any claim whatsoever to them. This is especially unjust because history, Josephus, the Talmud, and Herodian architecture bear complete witness to the truth of Judaisms much more ancient presence in the land.

Further, Islam derived its traditions from Judaism.

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

The existence of Islam was prophesied here in Genesis 17:20. Instead of Muslims recognizing a sort of complementarity between Judaism and Islam, they seek the complete abrogaton of Judaism, and here, in their maleficent claims to sites clearly and obviously Jewish, they seek to rewrite history, this time without Judaism.

Obviously, Jews have work to do themselves, but the burden is much more on the Muslims, who have historically treated the "dhimmi" Jews as subhuman, hence the common Arabic epitheth for followers of Judaism, as 'Kalib Yahud' - Jew dog. There has to be respect, and tolerance, and unfortunately insitutionalized Islam is much more interested in erasing Judaism, Israel, Jews, instead of making peace with them.

reply to post by dontreally


I guess in my perspective 2 questions come to mind.

1. Are the Islamic people of PA blocking access to the sites that are historically significant to the Jewish people? If they are then they are no more in the right then the Jewish people are of keeping the Islamic people out of the Temple Mount.

2. If they are simply stating it is there's and not the Jewish people then does it really matter all that much? That would be the same as someone saying that your significant other loved them first. The words mean nothing. Words only hold power against you if you let them.

They claim the tomb of the patriarchs belongs to them, which is so unbelievably absurd. First, its called the Tomb of the PATRIARCHS - ie; Abraham, ISAAC AND JACOB. The absurdity is that there is documentation of this tradition into pre-Islamic times. What could possibly be the PAs justification in making this claim?

Another claim is the Tomb of Joseph, Tomb of Samuel...What else will the PA lay claim to?? Seemingly everything historically Jewish is theirs.

For starters the Old Testament prophets are revered by muslims as well.
You see, muslims are not "race conscious" when it comes to their religion... so even the so called "pre-Islamic" times of these patriarchs are considered to be part of Islamic history.

reply to post by dontreally


Dontreally... you do know that the ancestors of today's Palestinians were the Jews that built these places, right? I mean, I hate to be the one to tell you, but... religions don't have property rights. it would get awkward fast (quick, which religion "owns" central Asia? Shamanism? Tengriism? Judaism? Nestorian Christianity? Sunni Islam? Shia Islam, Sufi Islam? Buddhism? Zoroastrianism? Russian orthodoxy?)

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Are you serious?? Where do you get this absurd crap from?? You are the biggest liar on this site. Every other word of yours is a distortion of the truth.

First, at least 3 quarters of present day "Palestinian" Arabs, are from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and elsewhere in the Arab world.

Second, the Arab culture didn't enter the levant until the 7th century, with Abd Al-Malik Ibn Marwan. The Jews - Judeans, were most certainly not todays Palestinians and there is absolutely no evidence for that at all. At most, its been shown that Arabs and Jews share common genealogical traits, which gives nothing "extra" to the Palestinan Arabs, and thus gives you no right to claim they are the Jews who built the first and second Temples.