ATS and OWS: What the heck, ATS?

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
There is no such thing as "more" capitalism. There is capitalism and that is it. What is in place today in the U.S. is not capitalism, and I am certainly not arguing for "more" capitalism as that only plays into the modern deceit that what we have is capitalism. All I am arguing is for capitalism.

What is in place and is becoming much more solid is Fascism in the true economic term.

From the Library of Economics and Liberty, it defines fascism as an economic structure that is "socialism with a capitalist veneer." They further their standing on such by stating the following:

Under fascism, the state, through official cartels, controlled all aspects of manufacturing, commerce, finance, and agriculture. Planning boards set product lines, production levels, prices, wages, working conditions, and the size of firms.

This is particulary similar to what we have. We may not have direct "planning boards", but with the deep collusion between Corporate heads and Government, planning boards are in effect not needed. Such economic planning as "price floors" and "rent control" are an indication of this. There have been much talk about regulating wages and sizes of firms.

Licensing was ubiquitous; no economic activity could be undertaken without government permission. Levels of consumption were dictated by the state, and “excess” incomes had to be surrendered as taxes or “loans.”

The first part of this sentence is telling. Is there any economic activity today that a "free" citizen can engage in without getting permission from the State in the form of a license?

Are you OWS supporters serious?
Honestly do you think the evil 1% or TPTB are going to let a few thousand people change anything?

Oh you may say you support the movement right before you get in your car drive to the store and use your credit or debit card to purchase items that are manufactured by companies owned by the 1%. (sad but true folks).

The only way things are going to change is when they allow change. I am not a pessimist, I am a realist.

They will allow these protests to continue for awhile, it makes people happy to think they are making a change. Eventually TPTB will tire of the nonsense and put an end to the protests. It won't be difficult all they need to do is infiltrate a few strategic protest locations and begin a few riots. The public will plead for the government to step in and break up these protests.

Nothing big will change.

After everything is said and done most of us will continue to work everyday for companies who pay us so we have money to purchase their products and services. (like we do right now).

Nothing you can do about it.

Originally posted by kellerphoenix
Are you OWS supporters serious?
Honestly do you think the evil 1% or TPTB are going to let a few thousand people change anything?

Oh you may say you support the movement right before you get in your car drive to the store and use your credit or debit card to purchase items that are manufactured by companies owned by the 1%. (sad but true folks).

The only way things are going to change is when they allow change. I am not a pessimist, I am a realist.

While I do not support what the agenda of the "99%", whatever it may be -- I guess that is the purpose of this thread; to figure that out -- to say that a few cannot effect change is being ignorant and naive.

It is estimated, and quite loosely I might add, that around 40-45% of colonist supported breaking off from England and becoming an independent United States of America. To offer up your life and proclaim "realist" is nearly akin to saying that it matters not what we do, it is preordained by God on if we get into Heaven or not.

Mind you the spiritual allusion I made, it was a comparison. Some believe so, other not. Effecting change does not however require a majority support. It does however require some clear and concise goals. Neither of which I have seen being produced from the OWS crowd.

I say this because there are some factions of the OWS supporters that want this. Others that want that. There are some who call for Democracy and others who call for Communism. Destruction of Capitalism and just the mere expulsion and denial of Corporate-State collusion.

That, in my opinion is the major problem and one that will belittle the OWS for a long time. Right now it is a hodgepodge collection of people that want to be part of something.

Originally posted by blupblup

This is what ATS has been talking about for years, the revolution people have been waiting for.... the ENTIRE WORLD is out on the streets camping out, protesting, raising awareness and all people want to do is attack them and ridicule them and mock them.


Pathetic.

"Pathetic" is right. this post is contradictory and absolutely lacking in sensibility or logic.

If "the entire world" is out on the streets camping out, who is left to attack, ridicule, and mock them?

Obviously, it's not "the entire world" out there, and in fact it is a vanishingly tiny fraction of malcontents.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux

This is demonstrably false, and the best and brightest among us appear to have "gone Galt".

I had to look up that term. I'd never heard of "going Galt" before. This is what I found:

The use of Galt as a symbol in the context of political or social protest has taken root in some places. The phrase "going John Galt" or simply "going Galt" has been used[14] to refer to productive members of society cutting back on work in response to the projected increase in U.S. marginal tax rates, increased limits on tax deductions, and the use of tax revenues for causes they regard as immoral.

Source

I'm among neither the best nor the brightest, but I've done exactly that. I don't care to be productive for a bunch of whiners who would rather take and take and take and give nothing back. I already have my own people to be responsible for, and have no need for the rest of the world to stand in that line with their hands out and an extortive bureaucracy which thinks it has some right to just take what it has not worked for, nor even bothered to ask for before resorting to said extortion. I'm operating these days on the theory that if I don't have it, they can't take it, so I keep my production to the minimum necessary to care for my own responsibilities.

In another year or two, I ought to be able to opt out of even that, and go full Galt, dropping out of this crazed society altogether, neither investing into it nor taking out of it.

Originally posted by antonia

There is no amount of human ingenuity that will overturn the laws of physics. It is human arrogance to believe such things. All modern economies, left or right, depend on infinite growth. Scientifically speaking, it's impossible.

One does not use ingenuity to overturn the laws of physics. That would be a doomed and ill-advised revolt, not an exercise of ingenuity. One instead uses ingenuity to put those same laws to work in innovative ways to address the apparent limitations, which turn out not to be limitations at all.

It's all in how you see the problem, approach the problem, and apply ingenuity TO the problem.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

And no, I don't take OWS serious enough because all I have seen is a bunch of hippie-era wannabes. But no, I have not taken sides. And you should read all my posts.

I have read all your posts:

All I can say is this, while I defend your right to protest, do you really understand what you are throwing away in favor of Marxist Socialism? You are also throwing away my rights.

you haven't actually criticized the Tea Party in this thread - yet

so...?

and about those hippie wannabes WarminIndy - who wouldn't want to be a hippie?

I'm tired of the put downs - frankly. They're childish at best - but in reality they're thinly veiled bits of contempt for a group of people that had the guts to stand up for what they believed in - they put themselves on the line

it's not an insult - but you can't see that - can you?

The Tea Party was not the issue of this thread, but the OWS is. Yes, hippie-wannabes, I will call them that because that is what they are.

Now if they have the guts to stand up for what they believe in, they put themselves on the line....of people who criticize them, then they should be able to take me calling them that. After all, I never said they could not protest but they need to be honest about it. Did I put them down or did you read that into it? If I were going to insult any group of people, it would not be thinly veiled, I can assure you of that.

But they are being pulled into something through rhetoric of very leftist, Communist speakers who take advantage of the democratic system, making money from the movement while these so-called 99% are out on the streets causing damage to other peoples property. So not all of them are, but they don't stop their friends from doing it.

Hippie-wannabes, if they have the guts you say they have, then my wording should not bother them that much. You mean they have so little confidence in their own agenda that by me calling them hippie-wannabes actually hurts their feelings?

No they should not be taken seriously because they will go along with the rhetoric until it dies down, they lose interest and find something else to be upset about and then a new generation will come along and be upset and follow rhetoric until they get bored. The OWS is just like Harry Potter fans, you got to be a Harry Potter fan because your friends are. Nothing more than that. They are just protesting because their friends are, they don't have enough guts to do it individually. And from what I have seen, they know so little about history they don't really understand the rhetoric their leaders are telling them.

Originally posted by kellerphoenix
Are you OWS supporters serious?
Honestly do you think the evil 1% or TPTB are going to let a few thousand people change anything?

Oh you may say you support the movement right before you get in your car drive to the store and use your credit or debit card to purchase items that are manufactured by companies owned by the 1%. (sad but true folks).

The only way things are going to change is when they allow change. I am not a pessimist, I am a realist.

They will allow these protests to continue for awhile, it makes people happy to think they are making a change. Eventually TPTB will tire of the nonsense and put an end to the protests. It won't be difficult all they need to do is infiltrate a few strategic protest locations and begin a few riots. The public will plead for the government to step in and break up these protests.

Nothing big will change.

After everything is said and done most of us will continue to work everyday for companies who pay us so we have money to purchase their products and services. (like we do right now).

Nothing you can do about it.

Exactly what I was saying. They will do this until the next Harry Potter movie comes out because it seems these people don't even know what they are protesting and they just jumped on the bandwagon. Here is an idea for them, do it the way other groups do and actually be involved in campaigns of candidates they want and work to pass out buttons or flyers. If they actually did a little work, I might be a little impressed, but right now, they are just a bunch of bandwagon jumpers who want to follow the newest trend while twittering on their iPads.

reply to post by nenothtu




My point was that these protests are GLOBAL... not literally the entire world.




Sheesh, if I need to spell that out then I'm slightly worried.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by antonia

 

Yes I know the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and am fairly certain I made the point in this very thread that this principle extends to much more than just the chemical reaction of heat systems. However, if you are implying that the universe is a closed system, then all those claiming the universe is expanding must be wrong.

No, the universe is a closed system. It has borders and is curved. All expansion occurs in the fourth dimension. As there is no evidence to support the universe interacts with anything outside of it according to Physics the universe is by definition a closed system. There is no energy added from outside of it. Brane-String theory may be brought up to support an open system, but if the Branes touch according to that theory we get a big bang and we all die anyway.

Unless, we go with the theory that the universe is expanding but at some point will contract.

There is some talk of that, however, the most accepted end of the universe is "Heat Death". As energy is consumed everything goes cold.

There is not near enough known about the universe for you to claim that it is a "scarcity is a scientific fact" in the context you are using it.

Of course there is enough information to make the determination. Unless you can somehow show energy is being created and deposited from somewhere outside of the universe. The Law of Conservation of Energy states the amount of energy in the universe remains constant over time. Obviously this indicts it is finite. ( Now there is some talk that gravity exists outside of our universe, but that has yet to be proven and it doesn't change the amount of energy in the universe.)

Abundance is also a scientific fact.

Perhaps in the sense that ones sees a lot of stuff in the universe, but you have to go get it. Until you can we have to deal with what can be taken on the Earth. There is only so much matter on Earth.

All life has a cycle-Birth, growth, maturation and decline. The universe is not excepted from this so why would any human system be?

Originally posted by kellerphoenix

Oh you may say you support the movement right before you get in your car drive to the store and use your credit or debit card to purchase items that are manufactured by companies owned by the 1%. (sad but true folks).



:

Because the truth is OWS does not want to bring any system down. They want jobs, they want stuff, they want skin in the game. So, all I could see them doing is shuffling the cards if they ever did get power. Nor do I think they really want power.

Take for instance student loans. It would be very easy for them to just refuse to pay wouldn't it? I hear no talk about such things. That's a more powerful action than marching in the streets with a sign.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Hippie-wannabes, if they have the guts you say they have, then my wording should not bother them that much.

they're not worried :-)

and nice to have met someone so impartial

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Hippie-wannabes, if they have the guts you say they have, then my wording should not bother them that much.

they're not worried :-)

and nice to have met someone so impartial

I have aunts and uncles who were hippies, so I kind of get the idea of what they think. I try to be impartial, but sometimes it is hard to show because many times, people are waiting for any thing to set them off, and will take a word in a post and flip out over it.

reply to post by antonia


Very true, good point.

I think leaders of this movement need to establish an attainable
set of goals and make those goals readily available to the public. What most people see regarding this protest is what the media allows, which is mostly negative.

Originally posted by blupblup
reply to post by nenothtu

 

My point was that these protests are GLOBAL... not literally the entire world.

Sheesh, if I need to spell that out then I'm slightly worried.

Well then, allow me to rephrase what I was getting at as well.

If these groups represent "the People", what does that leave to be criticizing them?

The crickets?

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by WarminIndy
[more

Hippie-wannabes, if they have the guts you say they have, then my wording should not bother them that much.

they're not worried :-)
and nice to have met someone so impartial

I have aunts and uncles who were hippies, so I kind of get the idea of what they think.

I try to be impartial, but sometimes it is hard to show because many times, people are waiting for any thing to set them off, and will take a word in a post and flip out over it.

:-)

(just don't use the word 'dirty' when talking about the hippies - and we'll all be fine. Make your aunties and uncles proud...)

keep the faith baby

and - make love, not war

reply to post by nenothtu


There are tens of thousands out of a population of 7 BILLION scattered about the Globe.

Amen, brother. I joined a couple of years after you, but I agree with your sentiment. Would love to spend the rest of my afternoon starring and flagging this post. Well said.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by nenothtu

 

There are tens of thousands out of a population of 7 BILLION scattered about the Globe.

Some are Soccer Moms who take time out of their life to join the actual Marches...and donate materials for the occupiers.

A relevant economic divide...I found myself with an unusual day off in the middle of the week and scrammed up to Occupy Oakland...charging my laptop right now in a library a few b locks away...after doing their dishes for an hour...

I suspect nenothtu has never truly lived in a communal environment where people value company over bravado stories of "how I slaughtered a day of work to make myself conform to the propagated line of 'I did it myself'"...I have made fortunes and lost them overnight due to a system that re-defines its' terms overnight without telling everyone...working a nine to five is not so much heroism these days...

Two pence...

I bet you yell at traffic too.. WOW..