ATS and OWS: What the heck, ATS?

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posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 04:40 AM
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reply to post by Mcupobob
 


You are the FAIL of the day


But a star just for being a cheerleader never the less

edit on 7-11-2011 by Unknown Soldier because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 05:01 AM
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Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

I'm sorry, but you really don't have a "basic and fundamental human right" to condemn someone to suffering death because you don't feel like being charitable.



The MOST basic and fundamental of human rights is to make decisions for one's self. When you force a man to be charitable, you take away his own ethics, indeed even his ability to BE ethical. He no longer has an ability to CHOOSE to help.

"Forced ethics" are not ethics at all.




Well when you force a man to be moral you are doing the same thing. Why have any laws at all?

Why protect children? Why defend the elderly? Aren't we forced into that?

You are creating a society of people and what is best for the whole is considered. Diseased and dying members are not productive. Face it - no ethics forced or not are no ethics. If you are rallying for a society completely free of ethics - forced or otherwise, lets see somebody campaign on it. I am curious as to how far they will get. As popular as your lack of charity is - it is far from universal.

Basic fundamental human rights is making sure that everyone has them.
None of us live in self sustaining farms anymore. Laws and society have effectively phased them out. Paid them not to produce so we can depend on these mega food corporations, and now they are rich and we are starving.
Now in this climate that was deliberately engineered - You cannot take away all the jobs and then say feed yourself.
edit on 7-11-2011 by newcovenant because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 05:29 AM
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Originally posted by newcovenant

The MOST basic and fundamental of human rights is to make decisions for one's self. When you force a man to be charitable, you take away his own ethics, indeed even his ability to BE ethical. He no longer has an ability to CHOOSE to help.

"Forced ethics" are not ethics at all.




Well when you force a man to be moral you are doing the same thing.


Yup - that's kinda sorta EXACTLY like what I said!



Why have any laws at all?


laws are not to enforce morality.

Attempting to enforce morality is a large part of what has gotten us to this over-legislated point we are at today. I've heard, but can't confirm, that there are over 600,000 laws on the books. How can any one person know all those laws? What if it's really only 10% of that? 60,000 laws are still an awful lot to digest. Every single day of your life you will break some law. When I was taking my police training, we were told flat out that NO car on the road is 100% legal. You only have to look long enough to find the violation.

That just about did it for me, which is why I never went into law enforcement, and went a different route altogether. I didn't sign on to force morality on people.



Why protect children? Why defend the elderly? Aren't we forced into that?


You need a law to convince you to protect kids and the elderly? what brand of "morality" do you have?

Whose morality should we codify? Christians? Jews? Muslims? Hindus? Jains? Sikhs? I hear Saudi Arabia has a "Morality Police" as did the Taliban. If you need a law to make you moral, you might check into one of those models.

Nossir, laws are not to enforce morality. "Enforced morality" is not morality at all - it bespeaks a decided LACK of morality in a society such that the morals of one group must be imposed on all.



You are creating a society of people and what is best for the whole is considered. Diseased and dying members are not productive. Face it - no ethics forced or not are no ethics. If you are rallying for a society completely free of ethics - forced or otherwise, lets see somebody campaign on it. I am curious as to how far they will get. As popular as your lack of charity is - it is far from universal.


Who's calling for amorality? Who is calling for a lack of ethics? Not me. If you think I am, let's see a quote from one of my posts calling for it. Just because I don't need ethics forced upon me doesn't mean I have none of my own. Quite the contrary - if I have ethics, I do not need external force to impose ethics. Those without ethics of their own can never manage to see that, though, because it is an alien concept to them.

MY lack of charity? You think because I don't need charity forced upon me that I have none? Think before you answer that, as it may say more about you than it does me.




edit on 2011/11/7 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 05:54 AM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 





but your idea of more is to discard basic and fundamental human rights



I failed to notice where this is advocated and wish you would explain what basic human rights are discarded by the OP or OWS?


The United States is overrun with out of control administrative agencies poking their noses in every aspect of business, claiming authority they do not have. Licensing schemes are imposed upon people who have the basic and fundamental right to earn a living. A shoemaker needs no permission from the state to make shoes, and a book seller needs no permission from the state to sell books, but try to open up a business without a license and watch how difficult government will make your life.

These licensing schemes, and anyone who has all ready opened a business all ready knows, will not be granted to those who acquiesce until first that person obtains a federal tax ID number. Such collusion between local and federal government is not only unlawful, under our Constitutional governments it is illegal, but it is done anyway. So, here's the deal, if you want to go into business, everyone and their brothers and sisters will tell you how you need to go to city hall and get a license. If you foolishly agree to this, city hall will tell you to come back after you've obtained a federal tax ID number.

This closed system has become so bad that wholesalers will not even consider selling to an unlicensed business who has no federal tax ID number. Why? What is going on with all of this that everyone who actually wants to go into business must first agree to join an entropic system? Walking Fox is not only advocating this system, that member is insisting that system isn't oppressive enough!




JPZ, with all due respect, I do not think opening a business is a basic human right.

What Walking Fox is supporting is the OWS movement.

A movement against tyrannical government as well as corruption on Wall Street.
How can you be against people taking a stand against that?

I certainly do agree it should not be so difficult to open a business.
Have you ever tried to market a product and place it on a supermarket shelf?
Corporatism is in full evidence since there will be no "room" on any supermarket shelf - the spaces on those shelves are for Mega Giant corporations and already bought and paid for. EMPTY SPACE!!!! So we only see their products/ smaller start up companies goods are NOT PERMITTED TO COMPETE. This is not news to me. This is not "fair."

I went through the simple and inexpensive process of a business license and discovered I didn't need it. There are people all over operating small business from their homes without any business license and no problem at all.

You only get a problem when someone voices a complaint.
That is when regulation rears its ugly head.

Complaints rarely come from the public unless you hurt someone, complaints will come from competitors who would like to shut you down.
These regulatory agencies were initially set up to make sure dangerous or harmful products, food and merchandise did not make it to the public. They were in the interest of public safety.
I am the first to agree they have become inflated cows and monstrosities that must be disassembled, and leave only essential elements in place. But there are those that are necessary. Would you feel comfortable eating food from a street vendor in NYC without knowing they are regulated and inspected?

Private electricians in Iraq killed soldiers, accidentally, but none the less a fighting American dead - because of shoddy workmanship. You can bet this was not a member of the Electricians Union, there was no cross check, no safety inspectors, no separate group to go in there and examine that electrical work. If there were "regulations" in place those soldiers need not have died in the showers. But it is basically the wild wild west and anything goes. That is freedom? Freedom from safety and life? Freedom for charlatans and shoddy builders to flourish and endanger civilians? Freedom for your home to collapse in a cat 4 storm since your builders did not follow codes? No, that wild wild west mentality would present a perilous world for us all.

If a regulatory agency here in the US, or anywhere can prevent harm and death - we need them.

We need people who are expert and do not have a vested interest in the product or services, to examine the item before it reaches the unassuming and uneducated public. We are at the mercy of bankers and the corporations that produce our products. If they are ethical we will be fine but - IF THEY DO NOT FEEL THE NEED TO HAVE ETHICS FORCED UPON THEM - I would say we are in a heap of trouble then



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 06:00 AM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


Your post is just full of questions. And you are totally correct I am making assumptions about you based on what you say. Right now in fact, but this is a free world and I call em like I see em.

I happen to agree with the topic of this thread.

I think it is high time people got out there and protested these inhuman and unfair rules, regulations and policies being forced down our throats by people who want to make more money than they already have, by unscrupulous corporations, the Supreme Court, our Government and a small but powerful group pf right wing evangelicals.


POWER TO THE PEOPLE.

It appears from your writing and your painstaking attempt to discredit the OP you are against this and that is worse than sad - that is pathetic.



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 07:03 AM
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Originally posted by Unknown Soldier
reply to post by Mcupobob
 


You are the FAIL of the day


But a star just for being a cheerleader never the less

edit on 7-11-2011 by Unknown Soldier because: (no reason given)


I can see you resort to personal attacks when someone differs with your ignorant outlook. Why can't you respond with some maturity including some form of valid information in your rebuttles? You are only hurting your own credibility.

OWS people are the lowest form of liberal morons who believe in handouts, that everyone should be just as valuable as everyone else, but unfortunately this is not a possible reality. Unless you prefer communism over capitalism there has to be winners and losers. Not everyone puts in the same work ethic as others, not everyone is as smart, not everyone cares or has pride int heir work anymore.. For capitalism to work there has to be winners and losers. As long as the law was not broken you cannot pass blame. These childish wimps holding there hands out for a bailout are the exact reason this country is failing. They want to push it over the cliff and start with a new system. You think the wealth will be more evenly distributed in communist or socialist societies? HAHAHA... It will be 3 times as bad..

edit on 7-11-2011 by libertytoall because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 07:23 AM
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Originally posted by nenothtu
laws are not to enforce morality...

You need a law to convince you to protect kids and the elderly? what brand of "morality" do you have?
There oughta be a law!

Insuring the well being of everyone has to be enforced, or we won't. Sure, some may think they are doing fine so others should do fine as well. I hope they still think that when they aren't doing fine. We need laws to protect us from the "every man for himself' syndrome. That encroaches on freedoms like laws against theft and murder do. You are not free to do those things either.



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 07:26 AM
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Originally posted by nenothtu

You need a law to convince you to protect kids and the elderly? what brand of "morality" do you have?

Whose morality should we codify? Christians? Jews? Muslims? Hindus? Jains? Sikhs? I hear Saudi Arabia has a "Morality Police" as did the Taliban. If you need a law to make you moral, you might check into one of those models.

Nossir, laws are not to enforce morality. "Enforced morality" is not morality at all - it bespeaks a decided LACK of morality in a society such that the morals of one group must be imposed on all.


Except you are missing one of the central problems here-Most people are not ethical. That's why we have laws concerning the elderly and children. I don't see the problem with enforcing some kind of standard. (I think in some areas it has gone too far.)
www.ilr.cornell.edu...
There's a story about a grand ethical businessman for you-and what happened to this.... Entrepreneur? He paid 2000 dollars for killing over 100 women.

This has always been my main problem with libertarian viewpoint-It's just as unrealistic as the commies. It depends on human beings being moral or ethical (take your pick) when history shows most human beings have to be told how to behave. Infanticide used to be common in western society until the Church pronounced edicts against it. If humans are so capable of natural ethics then why do we actually need to tell them that killing your own child is wrong? Our society is replete with examples of this lack of ethics. You can't try to deal with how people should be, you have deal with how they are.

Libertarians are always bouncing around that point.
edit on 7-11-2011 by antonia because: forgot a word
edit on 7-11-2011 by antonia because: forgot something



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 07:44 AM
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Originally posted by libertytoall
I can see you resort to personal attacks when someone differs with your ignorant outlook. Why can't you respond with some maturity including some form of valid information in your rebuttles? You are only hurting your own credibility.

OWS people are the lowest form of liberal morons
Contradict yourself much?


Originally posted by libertytoall
who believe in handouts, that everyone should be just as valuable as everyone else, but unfortunately this is not a possible reality. Unless you prefer communism over capitalism there has to be winners and losers. Not everyone puts in the same work ethic as others, not everyone is as smart, not everyone cares or has pride int heir work anymore.. For capitalism to work there has to be winners and losers.
We are all equal, as we are all alive. You sure are quick to condemn others. Have you ever been condemned?


Originally posted by libertytoall
These childish wimps holding there hands out for a bailout are the exact reason this country is failing.
Wow, condemning the downtrodden and blaming them for breaking your country seems a little immature.


Originally posted by libertytoall
They want to push it over the cliff and start with a new system. You think the wealth will be more evenly distributed in communist or socialist societies? HAHAHA... It will be 3 times as bad..
I think a lot of protesters don't want to lose their Tony the Tiger commercialism, as that would make them cry like losing a religion. I think they just want more regulation and more security. If I have to live under capitalism, I'd like that as well. I think it's only still capitalism because selfishness has been encouraged in our species.
edit on 7-11-2011 by gentledissident because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 08:09 AM
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reply to post by gentledissident
 


Don't waste your time arguing with ideologues. For them the truth is not what matters-It's the idea. You are the enemy if you do not share the idea.

Both Capitalism and Socialism are anachronisms spouted by people who refuse to see what is really happening. The entirety of western civilization is starting to fall apart. It's a slow, steady process, driven by the lack of natural resources to sustain further growth. If any one talks to you about growth then you know they don't know what they are talking about. It is no longer possible in the current state of our world. This is why we fight in the middle east-to secure future resources.

Just Google "Peak Oil", most people here refuse to acknowledge it as it's too much for them to bear, but it's reality. In truth OWS is nothing, just another symptom of a society unraveling.



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 08:24 AM
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Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by libertytoall
I can see you resort to personal attacks when someone differs with your ignorant outlook. Why can't you respond with some maturity including some form of valid information in your rebuttles? You are only hurting your own credibility.

OWS people are the lowest form of liberal morons
Contradict yourself much?


No I'm not contradicting myself because I'm not using personal attacks on anyone specific who is arguing with me. I have justified my views already in this thread with facts and once you understand them you realize capitalism needs slight modification but not abandonment .. I made a generalization to the OWS movement where people are screaming for communism and socialism, LITERALLY!


Originally posted by libertytoall
who believe in handouts, that everyone should be just as valuable as everyone else, but unfortunately this is not a possible reality. Unless you prefer communism over capitalism there has to be winners and losers. Not everyone puts in the same work ethic as others, not everyone is as smart, not everyone cares or has pride int heir work anymore.. For capitalism to work there has to be winners and losers.
We are all equal, as we are all alive. You sure are quick to condemn others. Have you ever been condemned?


We are not all equal. I hire someone to work at my business and I get either someone who works hard and takes pride in their work or I get the lazy sack of # who just shows up to get a paycheck. NOT EVERYONE IS EQUAL in what they offer society. Some play video games until they're 30 years old, hardly holding a job, and living off mommy and daddy. Others worked 3 jobs, payed their way through school, and ended up working there way into a good paying job. So the guy that worked hard should have to share the wealth with the lazy sack of # video gamer? I don't think so..


Originally posted by libertytoall
These childish wimps holding there hands out for a bailout are the exact reason this country is failing.
Wow, condemning the downtrodden and blaming them for breaking your country seems a little immature.

Call it immature fine but that doesn't change the reality that federal welfare handouts are the largest strain on our economy. Enough with the handouts! Forgive student loans? That's what they want but thats just another handout to continue on this road to bankruptcy..


Originally posted by libertytoall
They want to push it over the cliff and start with a new system. You think the wealth will be more evenly distributed in communist or socialist societies? HAHAHA... It will be 3 times as bad..
I think a lot of protesters don't want to lose their Tony the Tiger commercialism, as that would make them cry like losing a religion. I think they just want more regulation and more security. If I have to live under capitalism, I'd like that as well. I think it's only still capitalism because selfishness has been encouraged in our species.
edit on 7-11-2011 by gentledissident because: (no reason given)


No they flat out say down with capitalism, some hold signs saying socialism is the answer, others hold communism signs, and the rest just aren't educated enough to understand what capitalism is and how important it is to freedom. Would you trade all your freedom for a welfare check? Idiots..





MORONS AND TRAITORS
edit on 7-11-2011 by libertytoall because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 08:58 AM
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reply to post by Unknown Soldier
 


Really how? I'm curious, why do you think its okay for the OWS to attack people just because they're part of the tea party? Honestly it just reinforces that they are the left's pet project. Meaning they are not a non-partisan movement. Which is why I don't like them.

Course I don't expect any rational reply from you. All you did was make a joke and dismiss me. Not a very intelligent rebuttal on you're part. Just a juvenile one. You sir are the fail of the true fail of the day. Star for trying though.



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 09:01 AM
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reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 


The primary problem is that a lot of the most outspoken members here are of the "survivalist" mentality, and many are Republican. They know the system is messed up, but they'd rather place blame at an easy target like the President.
I've been following the story through various sources since OWS began, and all of those against the movement have a very simple mind. Many call themselves "Christian" when they show fewer true Christian traits than I do as a Pagan. They throw abuse and mockery as some kind of "evidence" that they are right. They avoid responding to the facts and statistics and actually come across as children in a playground.

I've had plenty of discussions with people who are against OWS, and they generally go something like this...

Them - "Why don't the dirty Hippies just get a job"
Me - "Unemployment is at an all-time high, heres a link to some recent statistics..."

Them - "The hippies just want a hand-out"
Me - "Right, the college educated kids who spent four years studying NEVER wanted a job? How does that work?"

Them - "There shouldn't be any handouts"
Me - "Then you'll be stepping over thousands of homeless people as you walk to work. You'll be watching children dying of cancer when they could be treated. You'll be seeing the elderly dying in their millions every winter. Who pays for the funerals? Who pays for increased policing? Who pays to clean up the MASSIVE civil unrest that would result?"

Them - "Yeah, well, they're just socialists and communists!"
Me - "And what do you call bailing out corporations? That's actually closer to Fascism than capitalism. You'd rather have Fascism?"

Them - "They're just kids with too much time on their hands"
Me - "Yeah, the ex-traders, the Iraq vets, the grandmothers, teachers and parents are all 'just kids'"

In all of the conversations I've had with people who criticize the movement I see ignorance, hypocrisy, rampant misinformation and a basic failure to think beyond their own limited world view. They use the "isms" like they're back in the 1950's.

I don't know why there are so many of them here on ATS, but I personally don't think they're in the majority at all. They're just the most opinionated here.

A good example of how public sentiment is moving (in the UK at least) is the public response to the Occupy London protest. Thousands are visiting them each week outside St Paul's. Whenever there's a discussion on the BBC site (even though the BBC itself is following government line and playing down the protest or sowing propaganda) the masses are showing support for it.

I consider myself to be an average citizen here in the UK. I've worked hard, paid my taxes, never really asked for anything back. I now work for myself from home after starting a business that manages to support me.
I cannot get social housing and live with family. I could afford a modest mortgage but can't get one. I would love to grow my own food, use renewable energy, live within my means and live a happy and balanced lifestyle. I would love to see smaller government and local economies.

I know the system is broken and corrupt. I know that while I might be "okay" in years to come I'm not going to be rich. I just want a good quality of life.

I believe that the vast majority are like me. And that they get what's happening to the world and our governments. At the moment, most of them are watching and waiting to see what happens while offering their support to those who have been affected the most. But as more cuts and restrictions start to bite, more and more of them will be joining that protest rather than sending messages of support.

Even those against the movement now will end up protesting when their pension is swallowed up, when they discover what the future really holds for their kids, and when they realize that supporting "Republican" or "Christian" ideals (or whatever warped versions of them) even in the face of all the corruption across ALL PARTY LINES does not exempt them from the coming collapse of the global system.



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by libertytoall
OWS people are the lowest form of liberal morons who believe in handouts, that everyone should be just as valuable as everyone else, but unfortunately this is not a possible reality. Unless you prefer communism over capitalism there has to be winners and losers. Not everyone puts in the same work ethic as others, not everyone is as smart, not everyone cares or has pride int heir work anymore.. For capitalism to work there has to be winners and losers. As long as the law was not broken you cannot pass blame. These childish wimps holding there hands out for a bailout are the exact reason this country is failing. They want to push it over the cliff and start with a new system. You think the wealth will be more evenly distributed in communist or socialist societies? HAHAHA... It will be 3 times as bad..

edit on 7-11-2011 by libertytoall because: (no reason given)


As I mentioned in my last post, I'll just point out the name-calling here and mention the hypocrisy too.

First off, capitalism ended when the first corporation was bailed out. You know this, but you fail to discuss it. You know that what happens now is actually more akin to Fascism than capitalism. It's the mixture of corporation and state.
Secondly, if you remove what you call "handouts" (which are actually social systems put in place to support the most vulnerable in society) you'll be left with a lot of mess to clean up.
Look back through history and check out how things were before what you call handouts existed. There were workhouses. Kids died in the street from starvation. Disease was rampant (and didn't only affect the poor either!)
Homelessness was out of control. War was commonplace and actually on your doorstep. Crime was pandemic.

People have very short memories and they forget that "handouts" (or social welfare structure) has created the very comfortable life you have. Without those social structures you'd probably be living in a slum right now with the vast majority of your fellow citizens while the elites continue to dominate with their unelected in positions of power.

It would be great if people who offer uneducated knee-jerk responses in the traditional "right-wing Republican" camp actually thought about their family history. Those "handouts" helped your family after the civil war. They helped your family during and after WW2. They possibly housed your parents, and they most certainly built your school (who paid for your education?)

And I bring you to the final argument that NO person who doesn't support the OWS movement can actually respond to honestly...
Capitalism is about the successful reaping the rewards for their work, while those who fail are allowed to fail. So why is bailing out the banks with your tax money suddenly acceptable?
And if you agree that it isn't capitalism, and it isn't acceptable, why are you still arguing against those who are standing up against it?

Ultimately I think I understand the answer that none of these people are willing to give. They hate the fact that the TeaParty failed to move the nation even with media and corporate backing, while the OWS movement has managed to spread across the planet with a media blackout and no Koch investment.

That alone shows where the majority of people are. They don't support the divisive and simplistic mentality of "Get off my laaaaaand you commie!" and are actually seeking another way through discussion and intelligent thought.



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 09:55 AM
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Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 


I am not for OWS, because they don't stand for, believe in nor share my views on solutions.
The common theme for OWS is for Govt to step in and create more rules.
No thanks.
Got enough rules right now, that aren't enforced or cherry picked because those in Govt control want votes.

Show me Occupy White House, then I may look into supporting.
Until then, enjoy the cold of winter.


There's a certain irony when you complain about "government stepping in," and in the same breath you complain about government not "stepping in."

Those rules you mentioned? We want them enforced. We want a return to a government that responds to the electorate, rather than the people with biggest donation funds. Hell, in some ways you could call us "conservatie leftists"
THing is we're looking for a return to a certain point in our system, where the concern of government was the society being governed, rather than turning a profit.


I guess there is an irony in what I stated. But, while I want the current rules enforced, I think there are too many regardless.
Things as dumb as outlawing texting while driving is stupid. Legislating possibilities and what ifs never work. Enforce the rule already in place like "You hit a car and hurt someone, you charged for the incident.
These things are very simple in nature.
I want a Govt that fears the people, as they should. I want a Govt that gets out of the way and stays the hell out of my paycheck and life. I want a Govt that does what a Govt was created to do, as defined by the Constitution and Bill of Rights, nothing more.
OWS is not for that. If they are, then it is not shown by protesting banks, camping in public parks where rampant debauchery takes place.



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by detachedindividual
reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 


I've had plenty of discussions with people who are against OWS, and they generally go something like this...

Them - "Why don't the dirty Hippies just get a job"



Really? How come that is not what you are seeing here?

I could say this:

When I talk to OWS supporters they usually say something like, "I support OWS because I am a torn between being a communist and an anarchist, I don't have a job, responsible for no one, irresponsible by any definition, blew my SAT's and so could not get into college, and Mommy and Daddy are paying for my room and lodging, cell phone, new car-- and I heard there were some really good drugs here."

But I am not seeing that here, either-- and it would be dishonest manipulation to claim otherwise.

See how that works?

I do. You never spoke to anyone who said those things-- that is the stereotyping you hear from the supporters as propaganda.



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by nosacrificenofreedom
reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 


I hate to say this but people in the US have it too good right now and until we have a majority of our population who either realize the truth or live way below the Status Quo we will never see any changes for the better! It's unfortunate that many of us are dumbed down through chemicals illegal or otherwise and so we may never see any actual revolution. though I would love to see some real changes in the media and federal reserve because the control of disinformation and the manipulation of our monies are the most important factors facing us right now but we hardly hear anything about these issues and this is not by chance, this is by design! Some day America may realize the truth but it wont be through some uncharacterized protest without any definition or leadership like OWS! Sometimes the reigns of change must be grasped by the rightous even if the risk is great and the Task huge! I'm sure the colonialist of the revolutionary war knew these things and Though I think the average American wants change, they want this without much struggle, research, sacrifice or any personal risks and think that they can just vote change into existance! IMO this will never happen for we have had well over 200 years to see this in action but we still don't get it! Every time there has been change it has always come at a price and always through struggle! We have all seen freedoms lost once we decide to settle, when our struggle has ceased from reality and desseminated into fantasy bloodsports, soap opera(TV) and virtural games! I am tired of telling the same message to those without ears to hear, eyes to see or the understanding to comprehend and so if this is what we choose then so be it! We will enslave each generation we spawn to one harder then our ancestors had, instead of taking control over the fear and loathing that's been perpetuated upon our shoulders by control freaks!
May God have mercy on our souls


TO ALL OF YOU ARGUEING ABOUT EITHER CUTTING AUSTERITY MEASURES OR NOT.
First off. Whether you believe in socialism or not is irrelevant! this is because socialism is a byproduct of the Corporatist elimination of too many living wage jobs! Then our government uses socialism to lobby the people for election! This is a viscious cycle and with the advent of disinformation has led to us being divided, at each others throats and arguing about irrelevant issues that would not matter if we were all employed with real jobs!
This is the divide and conquer technique being used successfully right here on ATS! Instead of rallying about things we agree on that need to be changed like the reserve banks, the corporate manipulated media, monopoly corporations, big pharma testing their poisons overseas, ETC, etc we argue over those things that would never have existed if we were'nt being manipulated by TPTB!
Though I support most protests but as i have written above the occupation of wallstreet is without direction and there are too many people divided on which issue is most pervasive instead of sticking to one issue like, the control of our money and the control of the truth! If we ever decide to go to bat for these two real issues! I will be there ready to defend life, liberty and freedoms for all! Thank you for your time!



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 02:21 PM
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reply to post by gimme_some_truth
 



What would John Lennon say in regards to #OWS?
as per your avey...
Lets find out. Shall we?


You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right

You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We're doing what we can
But when you want money
for people with minds that hate
All I can tell is brother you have to wait
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right
Ah

ah, ah, ah, ah, ah...

You say you'll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You better free your mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow
Don't you know it's gonna be all right

~John Lennon

How very, very interesting... isn't it?



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 04:22 PM
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The individual is more important than the collective.

THIS is what our nation is founded upon.



posted on Nov, 7 2011 @ 05:09 PM
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Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by nenothtu
 


Your post is just full of questions.


A question unasked will never be answered. In some fairly entertaining cases, even questions asked go unanswered in the effort to wiggle out from under them.



I happen to agree with the topic of this thread.


As is your right. I happen to disagree, as is mine... for now, at any rate.



I think it is high time people got out there and protested these inhuman and unfair rules, regulations and policies being forced down our throats by people who want to make more money than they already have, by unscrupulous corporations, the Supreme Court, our Government and a small but powerful group pf right wing evangelicals.


I'm not sure how "right wing evangelicals" enter the equation, but the rest I agree with. They will not affect any change in the makers of those rules until they target... the makers of those rules with an effective and focused campaign.



POWER TO THE PEOPLE.


As long as they are for a Collectivist Agenda.
The rest of us you would deny any power at all.



It appears from your writing and your painstaking attempt to discredit the OP you are against this and that is worse than sad - that is pathetic.


I've nowhere attempted to "discredit" the OP, nor will I. I consider Walking Fox an adversarial friend who keeps me on my toes and hones my edge. To discredit that is to nullify my self.

If you think I am "sad" and "pathetic", I'd like to know why you think that, with a cogent argument in favor of that assessment, rather than just levelling the charges and letting them hang.





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