US Marine in critical condition after OccupyOakland

Originally posted by AGWskeptic
reply to post by GogoVicMorrow

 

Must have been those TSA agents pulled off the highways.

I sure wish they'd get the story straight, either they were the only police officers there or they weren't.

It not a hard question to answer. If it is hard for them I could see how people got messed up, they lacked basic command and control.

You would be surprised about agency involvement. Some time back I was involved in a pursuit with another agency. When it was done and overwith we actually had 15 agencies in 3 counties involved in one manner or another. Only when I received my dispatch notes and info did I see the complete involvement.

That was extremely minor compared to large protests. Like a pursuit, mutual aid is requested by the officers present / supervisors and not so much command staff, unless they are present on scene and most of the time higher ranks are not.

When it comes to pulling and generating reports from those officers you ahve to take into account they may not be operating off the same dispatch, or even county systems. That means you ahve to pull that info from the responsible jurisidcition, which can take time.

However, they do need to clarify if it was only OPD or more than just OPD. Especially if any wrong doing is determined on the part of the police.

reply to post by Xcathdra


I'm an Army vet, was in the guard for a while, I've had more training in this than most. I've actually been on the police side of the line before. For a G-8 meeting on Sea Island in South Georgia (May 2004ish?), even though the only protests that were the least bit rowdy were far away from where the meeting was. I think we had more injuries in the training than the actual protests From the amount and activities of all the undercover police that participated in our training I wouldn't doubt that the little bit of trouble I saw there was instigated by them.
It's obvious the man on the ground is injured and defenseless even wearing a P-Mask in the smoke and CS. My opinion is that it was a callous and reckless use of force and should probably be prosecuted. You have an eye witness who was standing less than 30ft from the man the whole time saying he was hit by a beanbag in the head. I concede Oakland may not have this equipment in their TOE (or whatever cops call it) but I doubt Oakland was the only department there. Where did the spent shotgun shells and actual rubber bullets come from there have been pictures on the net and plenty of eyewitness accounts.

I pretty much agree that vets participating in these protests should avoid wearing dress uniforms and probably should avoid current use utility/field uniforms. But I highly doubt anyone not currently under authority of UCMJ could be prosecuted for wearing a uniform to a protest, seems like a pretty clear 1st amendment issue to me there. If I go to one of these things, and if it keeps going that's going to be a when I go to one of these things. I'll definitely have some type of insignia that will denote me as a vet, if not throw on one of my old (no longer in current use) BDU shirts on. Might make me a vest with 3rd Inf, 24th Inf, and 48th BDE patches on it too.

reply to post by Xcathdra


I honestly haven't seen any real advance on a police line. I've seen chaotic scenes with no clear police line, and then the police line where the people approach to help the guy that is down and get flashbanged which I hope you agree was waaay out of line. It was clear in that video that they weren't even approaching the police and were just helping the guy on the ground. They actually were leaving until they saw that guy.

Not saying there wasn't an approach just haven't seen that video. If you have a link to it I'll watch and judge fairly.

reply to post by jefwane


First off - Thank you very much for your service in the Military - It is appreciated.

The Alameda County Prosecuting Attorneys office should be the one handling the investigation into the Marine incident. The Chief of Oakland requested that because of the issues surrounding that incident. As far as members of the military wearing their uniforms, I am under the impression that regardless of being in or out, they are still subject to the UCMJ?

Ive had a few encounters with members of the military (dwi traffic stop and some other issues). Ive always checked with the military authorites before going forward with anything since they technically can assert jurisdiction (according the their JAG / Provost Martial Office). In all of my encounters (only a few) ive released the member into the custody of a person in their direct chain of command and called it good (and before people complain I extend the same courtesy to civilians as well). Sometimes the act of being caught is all that is needed to correct / modify the behavior.

My concern would be those that are intentioanlly trying to hijack the protests in order to inceite violence. As we see with this incident the reaction when it was discovered the person was a Marine sent the incident into a whole new direction. Repeat that incident with people in uniform and now you have the appearance of the military against the police with the added possibility of people thinking that the US military will protect the protestors from the police.

If that occurs there needs to be something put in place to prevent that type of encounter. On the flip side it could also be taken by some as the military supporting the police, which runs us into that Posses Commitatus issues for active duty / non state guard uits. The confusion and chaos at some of these protests, coupled with uniformed members of the military, could possibly make things worse.

By the way im not saying they dont have a right to be there in uniform. Just expressing my thoughts on "what if" scenarios.

Originally posted by AGWskeptic

This kind of crap is why we can never get together as a society.

So be it. I'm not joining up with a misdirected "cause" just to be "getting together as a society".

Society in general can kiss my ass.

I'm not going to do what I consider wrong just because someone else tells me it's right.

People who tow either party line are nothing more than soundbyte spewing sheep, a free thinker can have a view on an issue that differs from his or her party of record. A real free thinker refuses a party brand altogether.

If you'd be so kind as to point out the partisanship in what you've quoted from me, I'd be ever so grateful. I'll "BAAAA" with the best of 'em if you can do that.

You should be able to pick out my party affiliation from the quote if you can point out the partisanship. Which am I registered with?

For my take on "free thinking", see line 3 above.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


What I mean by advance on the police line is the proximety of that group of protestors to the police themselves. In situations like this there is almost always a buffer zone. The areas law enforcement "stages" are generally kept away from the actual protest areas.

It would be one thing if we saw the protestors going past the police line (Perpendicular to it). In the video though, imo anyways, it al most looks like they are Crossing the T

Also, keep in mind people are not required to be attacked in order for another person to defend themselves. Even the movement of a group of people towards officers, based on totality of circumstances, could be perceived as a threat to officers, people who are not protesting that may be near the officers, etc

By the way im not offering any excuses. Just trying to present the side most people dont care to research (not you btw).

reply to post by jefwane

I think we had more injuries in the training than the actual protests From the amount and activities of all the undercover police that participated in our training I wouldn't doubt that the little bit of trouble I saw there was instigated by them.

That's quite an illogical conclusion to come to.

I can tell you, I've been around enough of the average population to know that any of them who approach a police barricade do so with the intent to do one of two things - go from point A to point B and have no intent to quarrel with officers; or to cause a scene.

In jobs where I've dealt with the public - it is my experience that most people will naturally avoid conflict and disperse rather evenly as if guided by entropic principles. You always have a few, however, who seem to thrive off of drama, conflict, or otherwise go around like they have something to prove. You have liars, cheats, and passive-aggressive types - people who will eat a whole meal then complain about it in an attempt to get it for free. People will bring a Mc Donald's cup to a Burger King and try to fill it up out of the fountain without ordering a drink (or a meal that includes one).

There are people who get absolutely irate at the idea that they have to pay more on their taxes because they are filing their 2008 taxes in 2011....

I'm sorry. I don't buy that these protesters were just milling about, minding their own business when a police officer just decides to shoot one of them in the face with some kind of intermediate weapon.

Although - I will point out, as I did before, the intriguing number of symbols demonstrating gang affiliations on many of the people displaying injuries in those videos. It is known that a number of gangs have embedded members into both military and law enforcement ranks - it's a growing problem. There is also that facet to be considered, here - from multiple angles. First - I would imagine a fair number of the confrontational groups have a disproportionate representation of gang members compared to other micro-demographics (these groups were largely composed of gang members).

Combine that with gang memberships and rivalries within law enforcement and military - and you have your own mini-conspiracy.

It's obvious the man on the ground is injured and defenseless even wearing a P-Mask in the smoke and CS. My opinion is that it was a callous and reckless use of force and should probably be prosecuted.

The matter has already been turned over to investigative authorities.

Every use of force in the military and civilian world is subjected to review. There's probably ten pages of paperwork for every spent munition.

You have an eye witness who was standing less than 30ft from the man the whole time saying he was hit by a beanbag in the head.

I've had far too many negative experiences with personal testimonies to really give them much credit, anymore. I've watched the claims go from the irrelevant speculations of a fool to the knowingly deviant fabrications of an intelligent being.

As something of an idealist and dreamer - it's made me quite bitter and spiteful on the whole.

I concede Oakland may not have this equipment in their TOE (or whatever cops call it) but I doubt Oakland was the only department there. Where did the spent shotgun shells and actual rubber bullets come from there have been pictures on the net and plenty of eyewitness accounts.

There are videos of some police officers using some munitions (presumed to be a less-than-lethal variety) that are deployed via a 12-gauge shot-gun.

That leaves a lot of open territory, however.

But I highly doubt anyone not currently under authority of UCMJ could be prosecuted for wearing a uniform to a protest, seems like a pretty clear 1st amendment issue to me there.

It's not a UCMJ violation or legal one (for retired veterans)... but, depending upon your branch of service, you are -technically- not supposed to keep your uniforms following your separation from service (though I would have to check if this is -all- uniform items in your possession, or all of the items you have been issued). Understandably - you don't want a bunch of military uniforms floating around ... doesn't stop them from appearing in flea markets, Salvation Army stores, and pawn shops, however.

If I go to one of these things, and if it keeps going that's going to be a when I go to one of these things. I'll definitely have some type of insignia that will denote me as a vet, if not throw on one of my old (no longer in current use) BDU shirts on. Might make me a vest with 3rd Inf, 24th Inf, and 48th BDE patches on it too.

That's your prerogative.

However, I find it somewhat manipulative that you would drag your -irrelevant- military affiliation into the mix.

Originally posted by AGWskeptic
The evidence that rubber bullets were used is mounting, and it would explain his injuries better than a tear gas canister.

Rubber bullets didn't cause that gash in his forehead. I have my doubts that a tear gas canister did, either.

The more I think about it he would need to be within about 20 feet of the launcher to sustain those kind of injuries from a gas canister. I was told there are more powerful launchers used by SWAT teams to breach windows from a distance, and if they do exist they would be highly innapropriate for crowd control situations for that very reason.

In all honesty, in crowd control they shouldn't be using canister launchers any how. Tossing tear gas canisters is why the gods gave them hands.

Gas in meant to be less than lethal, having it launching at a velocity that causes thart much damage defeats that purpose.

Sort of reminds me of something John Titor said - "it turned out that some of their 'non-lethal' weapons were very lethal indeed."

reply to post by Xcathdra


Shell cases and rubber balls have been found on scene.

Howard Jordan Oakland's acting police chief, said that it's possible that other police departments assisting Oakland on Tuesday used rubber bullets and or wooden dowles. The same officer that tossed the flash bang into the group assisting was carrying a shotgun, and is clearly shown shouldering it after the fact!

Scott Olsen was shot point blank in the head from less than five feet away!

reply to post by Donkey_Dean

Officers provide their own ammo!

Not in those outfits, they don't. Maybe in some of your rural counties, but most districts have moved away from this for accountability reasons.

Hell, the Army goes ape# if you come back from the range with less brass than they issued you (IE - you have to pick up every casing fired from any training evolution - particularly if you are not Army... we picked up a good 10% over our brass-count at one of the ranges at Ft. Leavenworth).

Your point is mute.

... Well, you've spoken. Case closed.

Shell cases and rubber balls have been found on scene.

Well, I'll take the side less argued and ask you a couple questions:

When were those found on the scene? Who fired them? And where were they fired?

I mean - I can fire a few rounds of these less-than-lethal munitions into room and simply deposit them. Sure - it's an elaborate conspiracy ... but so is the idea that every instance of police utilizing force is part of some kind of NWO scheme or evidence of a police-state.

I personally keep single round in my shotgun to effect a less than lethal first shot should I ever need to take it. Followed by buckshot of course!

I'm not sure if you are claiming to be law enforcement... or talking about your own private arsenal.

Honestly, for home defense, I would have a shotgun with the reduced size/power loads intended for home defense (less risk of over-penetration through walls and the like). You can fit about twice as many into your magazine tube as you would with a more standard load.

I've actually considered investing in this - given my current locale that is prone to the irrational, addiction-driven actions of tweakers.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Yeah. I understand, but at least in the video with the protestors going to help the downed guy do you think in that scenario that single cop was out of line. I think it was pretty obvious what they were doing. The flashbang wasn't thrown as soon as they moved towards them, but after they were there helping a bit. I think the officer had plenty of time to consider the situation. It was a lone officer that did that, I don't think he felt threatened there.

Originally posted by Donkey_Dean
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Shell cases and rubber balls have been found on scene.

Howard Jordan Oakland's acting police chief, said that it's possible that other police departments assisting Oakland on Tuesday used rubber bullets and or wooden dowles. The same officer that tossed the flash bang into the group assisting was carrying a shotgun, and is clearly shown shouldering it after the fact!

Scott Olsen was shot point blank in the head from less than five feet away!

edit on 28-10-2011 by Donkey_Dean because: (no reason given)

Well then.. Case closed.

Arent you quite the perry mason.

Sarcasm aside, and as you and I have pointed out now, that the incident is being ivestigated and the possibility of other law enforcement agencies present is a possibility now. The PA's office is doing the investigation. The 100 meter rush to judgment being made does no good.

As with the protestors, the police have the exact same civil rights they do. Holding this incident against all law enforcement would be like holding all protestors accountible for the assaults / rapes that have been reported in some of those protest locations.

Od are you arguing there should be a double standard between how the officers should be treated and whats demanded for the OWS people?

reply to post by Xcathdra


Would you answer something for me? So what, if its a little bit of a read. It is relevant!

I need to ask this, I really do. What do you define communism as?

If a state has a problem with extreme poverty and its people decide to put systems in place to combat the problem. E.G. Welfare. If the people elect to provide public school or police service etc...

Please clarify your position here. The constitution said nothing about this stuff. A true communist state owns everything including the fruits of your labor.

I don’t think America will ever be a communist state. However I do think freedom is an illusion in America. The law is not accountable to the people, but rather big business.

It has become impossible to distinguish between elected officials and concentrated capital in this country. In a system where special interest can pull its backing and in effect destroy a candidates re-election chances, is the same as being fired by your boss! If this statement is indeed true then it means we live in a Fascist state. Those who think they are free but are not are hopelessly enslaved.

Should we support Fascism in America, or should we put it down?

I am in no way anti capitalist, but in my mind to big to fail should mean to big to exist, and those large corporations who basically monopolized the mom and pop shops out of existence should be reined in. The American dream has been killed by Wal-Mart and the like and we are completely dependent on China as a result of their activities. I have a friend in China and have visited a number of times. Did you know the Chinese enjoy high quality products, I mean really high quality. We get the cheapest stuff thet our fellow Americans can pawn off on us! Did you know that the Chinese worker earns an equivalent wage? He just works 80-90 hours a week to do so. There are no labor unions in China after all.

I think Fascism is far worse than any elected social programs we may have in the future. I personally feel that it is my duty to stand with any who would seek to remove the money from politics, and in turn end the corruption in our government.

Mussolini once said "Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power. ".

Did you know that Obama largest campaign contributors are the same companies who engineered this mess we are in? Did you know they still back him, but are throwing much more at Romney this go around? Do you think another plastic man will really fix anything?

Adolf Hitler once said.
The art of leadership... consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention. To achieve success we must have the ability to make different opponents appear as if they belonged to one category.

Is this not exactly what is going on here? From the start I have heard the OWS message and they have only one demand. If you wish to see here is a video.
www.youtube.com...

Yeah its left, but its also right and in the middle! Scott Olsen had already offered his life to his country, and was just doing what all good Americans should be doing! He did not derseve to get shot in the face reagardless of how leftist he may have seemed!

Wake up ok, the left and right dogma are just being used to further manipulate you! One plastic man is not better than another! These are your country men who demand the same reform as you!

What do we all have in common here? We want our damn country back!

United we stand, divided we fall!

P.S.
Also I want to know if you are aware of this.

The Nov 12, 1999 repeal of provisions of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933 by the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act effectively removed the separation that previously existed between investment banking which issued securities and commercial banks which accepted deposits. The deregulation also removed conflict of interest prohibitions between investment bankers serving as officers of commercial banks. This repeal directly contributed to the severity of the Financial crisis of 2007–2011 by allowing Wall Street investment banking firms to gamble with their depositors' money that was held in commercial banks.
Source: en.wikipedia.org...

This is all that allowed the housing mess to take place.

Also Did you know that due to the deregulation Bank Of America has been allowed to move 53 trillion “Yes I said trillion” In derivatives to its FDIC incurred depository branch. This move forces American taxpayers to backstop its $53 trillion derivative book. I don’t think the FDIC could actually swing this bailout, but it is what it is.
Source: www.zerohedge.com...

reply to post by Donkey_Dean


. . . .

.... And this has... what... to do with the incident being discussed?

However, you make an interesting point:

Adolf Hitler once said.
The art of leadership... consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention. To achieve success we must have the ability to make different opponents appear as if they belonged to one category.

So... we could say that the OWS movement attempts to unify the "99%" against the mysterious: "1%" ... who range from doctors to electricians to CEOs and stock traders. ... Presuming you mean economically and are discussing wage earners (the demographics change a bit when you start talking about capital reserves - which should not be confused with wage earning). We could say the 1% as in our political leadership (who represent far less than 1%) - or all military service members, veteran and current (which is about 1% of the population).

This is why I see the OWS 'movement' as dangerous. You have a bunch of emotionally-charged people looking for an outlet and will simply allow anyone to be fed into the "1%" category by people willing to direct the anxiety these people have.

The entire principle of it is an inherently combative one. "Do what I say, or else..."

Which is going to go over like a turd in a punch-bowl.

However - there are plenty of threads discussing this. I'm technically being a hypocrite, but further discussion of it should be directed to those threads, where it is far more appropriate than in this thread.

So someone tell me what is point blank then?

Point blank is up close and personal is in less than a few inches

5 feet away is not point blank.

I swear.

reply to post by Aim64C


Are you a Fascist sir? Is it hard to see that we have a bought congress and a bought president? What exactly have you heard here? I have heard only one clear message and that is to get the money out of politics! Maybe it is the fact that I do not watch the boob tube and seek my news from all over the place, but I see the puported attack upon the 1% as propoganda coming from the right only (Mainly the Fox network.). Most certainly you have plenty of fruits here, but at the end of the day the demands are clear for all to see.

The OWS's One demand.
www.youtube.com...

reply to post by neo96


Point blank is when you can stare down the barrel and say oh # to yourself!

Originally posted by AGWskeptic
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

There are pictures and video of protestors that were shot by rubber bullets, one had 2 wounds about 4 inches apart about the size of a dime, and there is a rubber bullet with 2 balls. The other is a single bruise very similar to the bruise a single rubber bullet would produce. There are also empty .12 ga shells marked as rubber bullets, and rubber bullets themselves that have been recovered reportedly at the scene.

I'm wondering HOW MANY rubber bullet casing were recovered, They're sold on the open market in packs of 3 and 5. If the cops were using them, there should have been LOTS of them littering the ground. If "someone else" was using them, I'd expect to find just enough of them sewn to be sure they'd be found.

Is that 100% proof that the OPD used them? No, but it's pretty strong evidence pointing to that fact. I doubt these guys shot each other then dropped the stuff at the scene.

Actually, that's EXACTLY what I would do if I were intent on creating an "incident" and blaming it on the opposition. Just shoot randomly into the crowd, then make sure the casing are on the ground, and not in my possession.

If the police had evidence that strong against a perp they'd have them in cuffs before you could spit.

No inquests, just jail.

You have 500 people, all screaming and running in different directions, and you find 3 shell casings on the ground. Which one of those 500 are you going to cuff-n-stuff? The casings alone, laying there, are strong evidence that it HAPPENED, but not very much evidence at all as to who MADE it happen. Now, most civilians aren't aware that they can buy rubber bullet themselves in some jurisdictions. I didn't even know it myself until a couple of weeks ago, and I try to keep up with that sort of thing. I knew I could get them a couple of years ago, but thought they had been outlawed for civilian sales. I found out differently a couple of weeks ago - and that I could still get them.

Facts is, most people STILL automatically associate rubber bullets with cops. Planting the casings would form that assumption automatically... until the Police Department stated that they don't carry them in their own inventory. even then, there will be those who say "Aw, they're just lying" and will continue to insist on that association.

Yup, if I wanted to seed havoc and blame it on the cops, I'd use "cop weapons". If I were a cop and didn't want those casing found, they never would be found to begin with.

And for the record I disagree with the use of flash bangs on crowds, they have killed people before. There are less violent ways to get the job done.

I personally wouldn't use them in ANY sort of open environment. They work best in enclosed places.

reply to post by Donkey_Dean

Are you a Fascist sir?

I am me. Appending labels on me will only frustrate you when I do something that fails to be consistent with those labels.

The OWS's One demand.

... Again... what does all of your ranting have to do with this thread?

My posts on the matter are clearly visible in many threads.

However, it was my understanding that the OWS 'movement' was leaderless... was 'many different things.'

... From what I can tell - it is the same as the Obama campaign. "Hope and Change." With a message like that - people project their own expectations onto it and join it - hoping for the change they want to see happen, without really considering that the person standing next to them might be of a completely incompatible ideology.