Masonry - Is It Really A Big Deal ??

A question to all the anti-masons:

WHAT exactly, specifically, is your PROBLEM with Masonry? Please make a specifc list. How does Freemasonry affect YOU personally? Please avoid answers like "they are evil", etc. That's far too nebulous.

To be honest, I really don't see what the big deal is. A secret society. Many have existed, many will continue to exist. Why would this social reality bother you? It doesn't bother me. I think it is rather exciting, actually. They aren't robbing me or spraypainting my car. They don't seem to be holding me back career-wise, my toilet remains unvandalized, and they obviously do not eat babies or make blood sacrifices to Satan, . . . . so why all this huffing and puffing? Seems a bit profitless to me.

About the "lying" part: And what if the Masons ARE in fact, lying?? Why should I care? How does it affect me or my family?

Seems like everyone is on a crusade to expose the Masons as liars or scoundrels. If Masons deny certain things, then who really cares?? If they lead double lives, I still don't see why it's worth all the gnashing of teeth to expose them. Big deal. It seems like a waste of time.

Aren't there bigger problems that are more worthy of fist-pounding and fire-breathing??





[edit on 31-8-2004 by LTD602]

[edit on 1-9-2004 by John bull 1]

Excellent thread
If only i didnt use my votes expect trolls to trash this thread soon anyways, excellent post dude

I really don't have a problem with masons. The only thing that bothers me is that if you want to be a politician you HAVE to join a secret society. Regan wasn�t in one and he nearly got killed because of it. ( I hope any of you don�t think that he chose Bush as a VP willingly)

I have no problem with them, I really didn't know a lot about them and still don't, though I have tried. I just see it as a men's club for the most part....I do however have problems with the silly little collage frats....stupidity hazing, and there have been many allegations of abuse towards woman...I think they're silly.

This topic is new to me, so I reserve the right to change my mind with further research. I see the Masons as a brotherhood that take care of each other. What's wrong with that. Many groups like that

Originally posted by LadyV
I have no problem with them, I really didn't know a lot about them and still don't, though I have tried. I just see it as a men's club for the most part....I do however have problems with the silly little collage frats....stupidity hazing, and there have been many allegations of abuse towards woman...I think they're silly.

Ah, those dreaded "collage frats" Somewhat similar to college fraternities, but these sit around and make secret, hazing, women-abusing collages. Gotta' watch them!

Come on LadyV. Sure there is a lot of nonsense that college fraternities (and sororities) have done, but they're not that bad. Some of my dearest friends to this day are my old college fraternity brothers. I learned a lot from them. (Sure they taught me how to tap a keg, but no one HAD to tap a keg) We had two brothers who were Mormon and didn't drink and that was no problem...no pressure on them to do it. I learned a LOT more, though and a lot of people discount this part of Greek Life. We owned a house (well, the Bank owned it) and we had to earn money to pay the note, the electric/gas/water bill, do repairs, etc. We got some help from Alumni but most of it we were responsible for it we wanted to keep it. I learned a LOT about managing money (more that I ever learned in the classroom) I also learned a lot about dealing with people from various backgrounds. etc. etc. ad nauseum...

Regarding abusing women...I can't speak for everyone, but we actually had training during pledgeship to teach us to open doors, pull out chairs for women, etc. Proper table manners, etc. Did everyone practice it? Of course not.

Do ONLY Greeks act childish sometimes in college? Of course not. After all we ARE talking about college students. Teen-agers away from home for the first time....not *really* kids, but not quite yet adults.

Me? I vote FOR college fraternities, but adamantly against collage frats!

ok, my grandfather(75) has been a Mason since the Korean conflict. he is the MOST respectful, honest, and caring man you could ever meet. i'm tired of hearing all of these people being so disrespectful. he has never treated my grandmother in an ill way, was an excellent father, and the BEST grandpa anyone could ever have. i think he has a right to be in such a society. i don't ask what he does there nor do i expect him to tell. it is something for him and his fellow masons. his masonic ring is one of the most beautiful i've ever seen. and for all the christians saying masons are evil....my grandfather has been a deacon in the church FOREVER.

Sounds like nobody has a problem with the Masons so far. Apparently it isn't a big deal after all.

I would say that MASONRY is a big deal, but masonic critics are NOT...

Originally posted by theron dunn
I would say that MASONRY is a big deal, but masonic critics are NOT...

My position exactly. Thank you for stating it so eloquently -- I couldn't figure out how to frame it.

Originally posted by infinite
Excellent thread

If only i didnt use my votes

expect trolls to trash this thread soon

anyways, excellent post dude

You could always wait for the September voting.

And, I guess LTD has thrown a monkey wrench at the trolls stories. They seem to have nothing to say to this finely worded invitation.



[edit on 31-8-2004 by DontTreadOnMe]

It obviously the secrecy that inspires the mistrust.

It's human nature, when people are whispering in corners, to be concerned about what they are whispering about. You can hardly blame people for that.

Certainly it was an important enough issue for the UK to pass laws requiring that Freemasons in the judiciary and elected MP's declare their allegiances.

Freemasonry has been implicated in a number of high cases in the UK, most notably the scandal surrounding the the now disband Midlands Serious Crime Squad, as well the the John Stalker "Shoot to Kill" policy inquiry. There have been other, cases as well, like the Italian P2 Lodge scandal.

On a more subliminal note, the symbology of freemasonry, such as the Pyramid sign which also appears on the US dollar, do something to perpetuate the idea that there is more to freemasonry than meets the (all seeing) eye!

Unforunately, I have to say the situation on this site isn't helped all that much by certain freemasons here (who shall remain nameless), who make a habit of raining a torrent of personal abuse and ridicule at any one who raises legitimate concerns or criticisms. I experienced it myself when I had to audacity to suggest freemasonry was not an infallible organization. The unwritten rule here "Thou shalt not question the Craft", I'm afraid simply adds fuel to the fires of suspicion in many peoples minds.

Is masonry a big deal? Not to me other than academically/historically, but then I'm interested in the movement of ideas and philosophies through the ages anyway . In fact I am absolutely sure that the freemasons are NOT all in on some grand conspiracy. But it is also fair to say that suspicion of freemasonry is not limited to kooks or "anti-masons" either.

[edit on 31/8/04 by muppet]

i think it can be chalked-up to anti-masons.(this coming from a woman). i guess i just have too much respect for the"old-school." i understand that secrecy in anything causes much debate, but i am only commenting on what i know from the masons that i know and grew up with. i've seen comments ranging from masons being in league with "satan" to abusing women. i know for a fact that the masons in my family do not worship anything concerning evil(i say evil because i don't practice christianity) or abuse women. some things should be secret. almost every society, every race, and both genders have clubs that are "secrect." i guess it just hits me somewhere deep when i hear people disrespecting the masons, when the man i respect most in my life, besides the father of my children, is a mason and has been since the 1950's. my comments probably don't deserve any merit on this stream of conversation, but i felt like i needed to defend an honerable man.

My dad was a mason, and my grandfather, so I share your personal experience of masons, and fully agree with you.

I'm not sure about your "dis-respecting masons" point though. Respect is earned, not expected by right. In the case of your husband, or my father for instance, we know and love these people and they have earned our respect legitimately over a lifetime.

If , hypothetically, your husband had had a bad day though, and maybe lost his temper with a salesman or unconsciously bullied someone they shouldn't have (it happens to as all at one time or other) it wouldn't be surprising if the target of the abuse didn't hold him in quite such high regard.

I think it is important to understand the reason for someone's feelings before criticizing them too heavily, though I do understand that you are referring to a possibly deeper, more holistic/subconscious level than can necessarily be described logically. Like you say it can be quite a personal thing for some people. Possibly that's where a lot if the apparent anger and frustration in the masonic threads comes from..

[edit on 31/8/04 by muppet]

WHAT exactly, specifically, is your PROBLEM with Masonry? Please make a specific list. How does Freemasonry affect YOU personally? Please avoid answers like "they are evil", etc. That's far too nebulous.

They are evil they smell the suck the stole my toilet and blew up my dog and they have horns and tails and the smell and they use a special x-ray transceiver that heat up my tin foil hat so I have to take it off and they smell and have horns. ETC ETC ETC.

Borin Bolba Biggans


[edit on 31-8-2004 by NeonHelmet]

You people-

Here we (who ever that is) are thrown a challenge at 12:28pm (mid-day) on a workday and by 7:20pm the challenge ended.

Let's just call IT an even five 5 hours, shall we? No sense quibbling over a few minutes.

Problems with masonry-
Personal, esoteric, religious or what? The challenge limits or bounds are left to our own surmise.

I surmise there are no limits.

I surmise this is a red-herring meant to draw out anti-masonic sentiment and statements.

I surmise disinfo at its best.

It is interesting that masons have seen fit to provide 'atta-boys' to the poster.


However, as I have often been wrong I will continue.

Are there any �good� masons?
I conjecture probably 70% of all active (participating) masons are and maybe 30-40% of the inactives. The inactives by far outnumber the actives.
- - -
Below I present problems as I perceive them.

Problems- I change the challenger proscription of providing a shopping list and will instead provide just a few �openers�in the spirit of �deny ignorance.�

IF masonry were as postulated, that is:
a secret fraternal organization asserting the real nature of the Fraternity as a spiritual force, as "away of life" which seeks to improve men morally and spiritually, by associating with other idealistic men who want to improve the quality of life around them by means of a brotherhood which emphasizes the Fatherhood of God. then why, pray tell would it (masonry) have such vitriolic and many numbered detractors?

Because there is more than one masonry?

IF masonry were all about self-improvement, enlightenment and community assistance then why are so very many politicians either:
proud to be masons or
hiding that the are masons?

This all depends on the area. In some areas being masonic is �no bug deal� or is positive, in others being a mason is �a big deal� and is negative.

IF masonry were a positive then why would a politician hide that fact?

IF masonry places brotherhood above all other obligations a man can enter into then does masonry hide the facts that some of its members have �aided and abetted� the enemy?

IF masonry has no religious leanings or directions then why is any belief a requirement?

Masons require a �symbolic� death and resurrection of initiates- is this a mockery of the crucifixion?

IF masonry were to enlighten and educate its members then why are the �rites� given in allegory?

Masons are taught that their �tongue will torn out by its roots?�

Is this enlightened?

IF masonry were about the brotherhood of man(kind) then why does masonry strive to lay claim, tenuous at best, to ancient mystery schools that taught things most religions find offensive?

IF masonry were a modern (200 years or so) creation for the betterment of human relations then why claim fatherhood from Soloman and Hiram Abif?


- - - -

I have buried two grandfathers that were masons, the other two were not. Being a mason makes no one good, a good man is a good man.

See:

Original posted by muppet
I have to say the situation on this site isn't helped all that much by certain freemasons here (who shall remain nameless), who make a habit of raining a torrent of personal abuse and ridicule at any one who raises legitimate concerns or criticisms. I experienced it myself when I had to audacity to suggest freemasonry was not an infallible organization. The unwritten rule here "Thou shalt not question the Craft", I'm afraid simply adds fuel to the fires of suspicion in many peoples minds.

(another one)
Respect is earned, not expected by right.

((I wished I had another 'atta-boy' point to spend))

This is enough for now except one final �thought:�

Why are there so many masonic web sites? Why are there some that portray anti-masonic leaning but then present pro-masonic rantings?

Have fun-

the widow's son

Very good post gadfly, I am to tired right now to go in to this argument, but I also find it funny that the contest was declared closed by some so fast I will come with my serious bid in about 10 hours.

Bilbo
33� Troll
666� Flamer
7� Drama Expert

Mr. Rogers was a 33rd degree Mason.

[edit on 1-9-2004 by LTD602]

PublicGadfly: I find your position confusing in that you are wearing a libertarian political banner. I would think a libertarian would not have a problem with individuals being members of a private organization that has secrets that they do not wish to share with the general public, yet it seems that you have a problem. And it seems that you think something needs done about it.

You speak in broad generalities, without defining anything concrete. I would be interested in hearing some specific problems with Masons and your solution as to what the Masons, the government or society in general should do to make the Masons acceptable to you.

I surmise there are no limits.
I surmise this is a red-herring meant to draw out anti-masonic sentiment and statements.
I surmise disinfo at its best.

Surmise: 1. A thought, imagination, or conjecture, which is based upon feeble or scanty evidence; suspicion; guess; as, the surmisses of jealousy or of envy. Surmise @ dictionary.com

I surmise that you will type alot, but still fail to offer anything tangible.

I surmise that your problem with the Masons is religious intolerance.

I surmise that you are a libertarian in name only , but a socialist in practice.

The beauty of surmising is that it requires no facts or evidence and it can cut both ways.
.

You should become a Mason, Gadfly. You'll probably end up liking it.

[edit on 1-9-2004 by LTD602]