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Masonry - Is It Really A Big Deal ??

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posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 01:44 AM
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My father was a Freemason. We didn't talk about it much when he was home from his many stints working overseas, because my mother tended to tease him rather unkindly about the "boys' brigade" & their "silly little secrets". However, she still went regularly to the masons' "regalia shop" to buy him different masonic aprons - I guess these were for his overseas lodges. [Memo to myself - must find out about this!]

After that lengthy preamble, I'll get to the point now. My father was born & reared in the worst, most deprived Glasgow slum - which today still holds this dubious distinction. He was the youngest of 10 children, all of them born & raised in 2 rooms of a squalid tenement.

And this leads me to the reason why I have no problems with Freemasonry, although I have no contact or ties to it now. The class distinction that existed in Scotland in my father's time, and indeed in my own, was absolutely crushing. To be lower-working-class, to be shabbily dressed, even your very speech, singled you out everywhere - in school, in the city shops, no matter where you went "outside your own class", it was crushing & I cfan't possibly describe how bad it was to you folk here.

Yet in Lodge [hope that's the right term], my father was an equal amongst his "brothers". They organised, did their thing - no matter that my dad's clothes were threadbare, his collars frayed, & his boots stuffed with newspaper & cardboard for soles. I even recall 2 of his "brethren" calliing in at our tenement "single-end" to see me after I'd been in hospital when my father was o/seas - we'd never had such "grand company" visit us - one I remember was a solicitor. They were very kind to us too, 'nuff said.

I guess this won't sound like much to those who've never experienced what I'm talking about - but I hope I made the point that "all men are equal" in Freemasonry. And my father was all his life a man of high morals, honour, & one who kept his word - ideals he told me that were the results of being a Freemason.




posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 03:31 AM
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Originally posted by Bastet

my father was an equal amongst his "brothers". They organised, did their thing - no matter that my dad's clothes were threadbare, his collars frayed, & his boots stuffed with newspaper & cardboard for soles. I even recall 2 of his "brethren" calliing in at our tenement "single-end" to see me after I'd been in hospital when my father was o/seas - we'd never had such "grand company" visit us - one I remember was a solicitor. They were very kind to us too, 'nuff said.



I agree with this totally. In the dealings I have had with operative masons that had lodge activity I also have found as you. This is one of the beauties of fraternal societies- not just the masons.

Your dad went for reasons that he found. He was a good man when he entered? From your post of high praise I imagine so.

As I said (posted):


Are there any good masons?
I conjecture probably 70% of all active (participating) masons are
-and-
have buried two grandfathers that were masons, the other two were not. Being a mason makes no one good, a good man is a good man.

Likewise I cited

muppet

Respect is earned, not expected by right.


In much of masonry it is admission by invitation. I imagine that your father was a well thought of man of principle. Any organization would count such as he as an equal and an asset.

At this point, as I can perceive (citing df1) that this thread is really different than it was first postulated I have chosen to start a masonic inquisition. I, of course, am the accused


The original questions are still unanswered and yet more have come.

The new thread is
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 04:43 AM
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Originally posted by PublicGadfly

Your dad went for reasons that he found. He was a good man when he entered? From your post of high praise I imagine so.



You're probably right there - but still I feel that being a mason helped FOSTER the good within him. This was an area of high unemployment & crime, & many of his peers, & one older brother [that I know of] had criminal records & skipped out on their families.

I feel that Freemasonry helped his self-esteem & it certainly gave him a lifelong passion for reading which he'd never known before - he actually said that,



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 04:52 AM
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Originally posted by Bastet
I feel that being a mason helped FOSTER the good within him. This was an area of high unemployment & crime, & many of his peers, & one older brother [that I know of] had criminal records & skipped out on their families.

I feel that Freemasonry helped his self-esteem & it certainly gave him a lifelong passion for reading which he'd never known before - he actually said that,


If I've come across as being "anti-mason" let me apologize- I apologize if that's the case.

What I dislike is duplicity- pseudo-mysticism

I don't imagine your father would ever sell out his country or agree to something just because he's a mason that would help kill his neighbors (if I'm wrong DON'T TELL ME)

Like I've posted, I have known a lot of masons.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 04:56 AM
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Originally posted by muppet
It obviously the secrecy that inspires the mistrust.

It's human nature, when people are whispering in corners, to be concerned about what they are whispering about. You can hardly blame people for that.


No one is blaming immature and childish mentalities for their unfounded paranoia... really, all we are interested in here is getting out the truth. It is somewhat... egomanical to think that just because someone is talking or doing something you are not invited into that it necessarily means that they are plotting or working against you... right? I mean, a balanced and confident mind would not care... wonder, perhaps, seek out information perhaps, but think evil without evidence, especially where one is not being excluded...

I mean, its not like you are being excluded. You CAN join, but joining takes a mature mind as well, so the circle come full 'round.


Certainly it was an important enough issue for the UK to pass laws requiring that Freemasons in the judiciary and elected MP's declare their allegiances.


Really? Do you want all Catholics to declare their membership before taking the stand... or perhaps Muslims, since we all KNOW they can't be trusted... or how about Jews? Europe has a fine tradition of jew baiting... look at France right now, and Germany sixty years ago...


Freemasonry has been implicated in a number of high cases in the UK, most notably the scandal surrounding the the now disband Midlands Serious Crime Squad, as well the the John Stalker "Shoot to Kill" policy inquiry. There have been other, cases as well, like the Italian P2 Lodge scandal.


Implicated by paranoid minds with no proof... and implication is not conviction. WE, the Masons, removed the charter from the P2 lodge when WE found out what was going on. They are not masons any longer, and MASONRY, as a whole, had nothing to do with the abberation. As for the "scandal" of the MSCS, well, some Masons did wrong, and MASONRY is addressing it. To slander the whole 5 million man fraternity for the actions of a few is hardly rational... shall we tar the whole Catholic church for the abominable actions of a few "priests"?


On a more subliminal note, the symbology of freemasonry, such as the Pyramid sign which also appears on the US dollar, do something to perpetuate the idea that there is more to freemasonry than meets the (all seeing) eye!


Well, there IS more to freemasonry than meets the eye, just not in the sense that you are implying.


Unforunately, I have to say the situation on this site isn't helped all that much by certain freemasons here (who shall remain nameless), who make a habit of raining a torrent of personal abuse and ridicule at any one who raises legitimate concerns or criticisms. I experienced it myself when I had to audacity to suggest freemasonry was not an infallible organization. The unwritten rule here "Thou shalt not question the Craft", I'm afraid simply adds fuel to the fires of suspicion in many peoples minds.


Actually, abuse has NOT been rained on you, unless you call having proof that you are wrong shoved up your nose abuse... or being called to task to prove unfounded defamatory comments to be abuse... personally, I consider slanderous attacks like THIS one to be abuse, but hey, I am the TARGET of this abuse, so I would see it...


Is masonry a big deal?


YES!


Not to me other than academically/historically, but then I'm interested in the movement of ideas and philosophies through the ages anyway . In fact I am absolutely sure that the freemasons are NOT all in on some grand conspiracy. But it is also fair to say that suspicion of freemasonry is not limited to kooks or "anti-masons" either.


No one has written or implied that suspicion is limited to the kooks and fanatics. HOWEVER, what has been written is that a little TRUTH from the attackers would be nice, and quoting Albert Pike out of context is NOT truth...

I have no problem with HONEST disagreement... if we all agreed the world would be pretty boring. However, one thing that masonry teaches us is to consider the man we are at odds with a brother, a friend, and worthy of respect, even if we don't agree.... we seek that which unites us, and in that, we can openly and honestly disagree on subjects.

It does not matter to me a whit that you have suspicions about masonry. It is a normal primal thing to fear that which you do not understand or that which is unfamiliar... in fact, it was probably a survival trait... a couple of hundred thousand years ago. Today, an intelligent person would use their higher brain functions to seek WHY they mistrust, then search out the facts to support or contradict that position.

We are, most of the masons here, I think, here not to squabble, but to offer the truth in the face of rampant paranoia, misinformation, and konspiracy kookery...

and the occassional troll.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 06:52 AM
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I expected a post like this would be coming.. ok... here goes.


Originally posted by theron dunn
It is somewhat... egomanical to think that just because someone is talking or doing something you are not invited into that it necessarily means that they are plotting or working against you... right?

Ah.. I see. I'm an egomaniac!


I mean, its not like you are being excluded. You CAN join, but joining takes a mature mind as well, so the circle come full 'round.

....and possibly of immature mind as well....


Really? Do you want all Catholics to declare their membership before taking the stand... or perhaps Muslims, since we all KNOW they can't be trusted... or how about Jews? Europe has a fine tradition of jew baiting... look at France right now, and Germany sixty years ago...

....then a straw-man argument..


To slander the whole 5 million man fraternity for the actions of a few is hardly rational..

....accusations of "slander"...


shall we tar the whole Catholic church for the abominable actions of a few "priests"?

...strawman again...



Well, there IS more to freemasonry than meets the eye, just not in the sense that you are implying.

I implied nothing. I simply stated that.... of forget it read it again yourself.. it was clear the first time..


Actually, abuse has NOT been rained on you, unless you call having proof that you are wrong shoved up your nose abuse...

Sorry you missed that thread..


or being called to task to prove unfounded defamatory comments to be abuse... personally, I consider slanderous attacks like THIS one to be abuse, but hey, I am the TARGET of this abuse, so I would see it...

... accusations of slander and abuse..


and then, in a final flourish of irony..


No one has written or implied that suspicion is limited to the kooks and fanatics.

followed a few lines later by...

We are, most of the masons here, I think, here not to squabble, but to offer the truth in the face of rampant paranoia, misinformation, and konspiracy kookery...


---
Seriously Theron, you would do well to re-read my posts on this thread, this time without the "this must be an attack on the masons" preconception. You'll find, in fact, it was nothing of the sort.

Such an attitude, exhibited by more than a few members here, is a real problem on this board, and castes both Masons, and ATS in a bad light.





.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 08:12 AM
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I don't think Muppet's post was derogatory or slanderous at all. I am somewhat disheartened by the phenomenon that is being referred to here. I have seen it myself, many posts that are merely opinions that could be clarified simply enough by sharing information get interpreted as slanderous attacks on the Order, and the fierce defense provided only seems to put some people even more on edge.

I don't think it's any secret here that I am a pro-Mason poster, but geez, cut these guys some slack! If he was posting crap like Necros, I would enjoy and applaud seeing you guys rip him a new one, but that just don't think that's the case here.

I'm with you guys (Masons) but I also see what these guys are talking about. You have every right to defend your Order against slander but flaming honest opinions doesn't look too good for you.

Just an observation.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 08:27 AM
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Please forgive 'Theron."

His real name is Noreth D'unn, a loyal servant of Reficul, our Most Sacred and Supreme Master. We have been charged with the task of defending a particular ideology which we have little to do with, but all the same, we do not ask quetions. Sometimes we go a little overboard.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by LTD602
Please forgive 'Theron."

His real name is Noreth D'unn, a loyal servant of Reficul, our Most Sacred and Supreme Master. We have been charged with the task of defending a particular ideology which we have little to do with, but all the same, we do not ask quetions. Sometimes we go a little overboard.



I was't referring to Theron in particular, although in this thread I'm seeing it from him a little. I see this kind of thing alot here, and most of the time I understand, Masons take alot of crap on this board and it is easy to get a little irate sometimes.

We all go overboard from time to time.

While I get the joke, surely someone is going to take that seriously. It's kind of sad really.

LTD you petition yet?



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 11:11 AM
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It's just some comic relief, and while someone may take it seriously, I cliam no responsibility for people who can't take a joke. We need to laugh a bit more around here. It's gotten waay too serious, unfortunately.

Yes, I've petitioned, I've filled out the application, and I already have 2 sponsors. What remains is for 2 or 3 Master Masons to come visit me at my house. And then, on to the intitiation.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 11:30 AM
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To heck with it -- erased.

[edit on 1-9-2004 by AlexKennedy]



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 11:37 AM
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LTD,

That's quite alright, we're all only human, and unfortunately on the internet it's easy to get wound up over the silliest of things.. I know, I've done it myself (just ask Herman, who I was recently very rude to, bullying in fact...luckily Jakko jumped in put me fairly and firmly back in my place!).

As psychosgirl suggested, we can all see red when we perceive something we hold dear apparently being attacked, particularly us testosterone fueled blokes. And I understand that you guys are often faced with niggling harassment from genuine trolls and hardcore anti-masons too, which must wind you up somewhat. I confess it would probably wind me up too, if I was in your shoes!!

Anyway, no hard feelings, I assure you!





[edit on 1/9/04 by muppet]



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 11:49 AM
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No problem, Muppet !



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 11:54 AM
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Axeman, for your benefit (since you don't seem to understand why these posts make some Masons so upset), I'll go through it for you.



Originally posted by muppet
It obviously the secrecy that inspires the mistrust.


Translation: "It's your own fault that people hate you, Freemasons. You don't have a right to secrecy, and if you do keep things secret, you bring people's hatred on yourself."



It's human nature, when people are whispering in corners, to be concerned about what they are whispering about. You can hardly blame people for that.


Translation: "It's not even people's fault if they slander and attack you, or assume you're eeeeevil. You had secrets, and that's inexcusable. You do not have a right to have secrets."



Certainly it was an important enough issue for the UK to pass laws requiring that Freemasons in the judiciary and elected MP's declare their allegiances.


Here, Muppet mentions a grossly prejudicial ruling in the UK, which almost all Freemasons find offensive. He doesn't say if he's for or against it, but context seems to indicate that, at very least, the prejudicial ruling is our own fault, because, again, we had secrets, and that's NOT ALLOWED.



Freemasonry has been implicated in a number of high cases in the UK, most notably the scandal surrounding the the now disband Midlands Serious Crime Squad, as well the the John Stalker "Shoot to Kill" policy inquiry. There have been other, cases as well, like the Italian P2 Lodge scandal.


Next, Muppet brings up some cases that anti-Masons have often used to "proove" how eeeeevil Freemasonry is. Mentioning the cases is not, in itself, offensive, but here's the problem. Let's imagine I'm Jewish. I'm defending myself against anti-semites all day long who claim I want to enslave all gentiles, and that I kill little Palestinian children by putting them in a barrel filled with spikes, then rolling the barrel along the street, using the blood to make matzoh (both claims actually made about Jews). Now, along comes this "perfectly innocent" poster, who first writes about how it's "understandable" how people are anti-semites (since Jewish people do, after all, have a high preportion of doctors, lawyers, and other professionals, so it's "only natural" that people hate them), and then in a few paragraphs mentions David Berkowitz, and how he shot a bunch of innocent people. Now, David Berkowitz did not commit his crimes because he was Jewish, and indeed, the crimes are no doubt condemned by Jewish people in general. Mentioning the crimes is not inherently anti-semitic. Yet, it's obvious from context, it's meant as an insinuation.

Just as these events are mentioned as insinuation: "looky! Some Masons did something eeeeevil! Never mind they were punished by other Masons for their misbehaviour, Masons did something eeevil! How can you say that Masonry is a good thing? Look at this eeevil!"



On a more subliminal note, the symbology of freemasonry, such as the Pyramid sign which also appears on the US dollar, do something to perpetuate the idea that there is more to freemasonry than meets the (all seeing) eye!


Once again, Muppet mentions anti-Masonic propoganda (in this case, something that isn't even true -- this nonsense that the American Dollar Bill has something to do with Masonry), as an excuse for anti-Masons. Sorry, but that isn't an excuse, and there is no excuse. Anti-Masons are engaging in prejudicial hate, there's no two ways about it. No amount of false speculation about the Dollar Bill changes that.



Unforunately, I have to say the situation on this site isn't helped all that much by certain freemasons here (who shall remain nameless), who make a habit of raining a torrent of personal abuse and ridicule at any one who raises legitimate concerns or criticisms.


See the cleverness here, Axeman? He's defined all opposition to him as "personal abuse." So anyone who disagrees with him is just "raining personal abuse." The fact that I've seen almost NO personal abuse (defined as attacking the speaker, rather than the opinion -- attacking an opinion is not abuse, it's simply disagreement) is irrelevant to Muppet.



I experienced it myself when I had to audacity to suggest freemasonry was not an infallible organization. The unwritten rule here "Thou shalt not question the Craft", I'm afraid simply adds fuel to the fires of suspicion in many peoples minds.


Very clever here! First of all, he refers to some vague, unproven instances of personal abuse. Where is it? Well, we'll just have to trust Muppet, since he doesn't give examples of this abuse. And guess what? If we disagree with him, he'll just chalk that up as "personal abuse" as well! There is no escape! Muppet is always right, and if you disagree with him, it's just personal abuse!

Then the bank shot with another "it's all your own fault, Masons!"



Is masonry a big deal? Not to me other than academically/historically, but then I'm interested in the movement of ideas and philosophies through the ages anyway .


Then he belittles Masonry. "Masonry isn't really important," says he, "I find it academically interesting, but I have a special reason." But of course we Masons are supposed to get down on our knees and thank him for this approval.



In fact I am absolutely sure that the freemasons are NOT all in on some grand conspiracy. But it is also fair to say that suspicion of freemasonry is not limited to kooks or "anti-masons" either.


See the insinuation? "Suspicion of Freemasonry is not limited to kooks or "anti-masons" either." Translation: "There are reasonable reasons to be suspicious of Freemasonry, but I don't have to say what they are -- I don't have to provide evidence at all! After all, this is only an "opinion."

I hope you understand why we react the way we do, Axeman. Someday, when you're faced by this BS prejudice every day, and you're considered a valid target for any hateful rumour anyone wants to start, you'll see why Muppet's behaviour is almost as vile (because of its disingenuousness) as any slanderous anti-Mason's.

[edit on 1-9-2004 by AlexKennedy]



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 12:07 PM
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Oh dear...Sometimes you just can't win! Oh well. I tried my best...


As I said. no hard feelings.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 12:24 PM
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I bet if we all met at a local pub over a few beers, we'd all be friends in no time.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by muppet
Oh dear...Sometimes you just can't win! Oh well. I tried my best...


As I said. no hard feelings.



I didn't read your apology before I wrote my message. I stand by what I said -- I think your post was poorly worded, but I can't blame you if you did it entirely in innocence, and there are no hard feelings on my part (again, if you wrote what you did in innocence).



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 12:27 PM
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Originally posted by LTD602
I bet if we all met at a local pub over a few beers, we'd all be friends in no time.


I have little doubt of that.



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by LTD602
I bet if we all met at a local pub over a few beers, we'd all be friends in no time.


Very true! (though I'm a rum'n'coke man myself. a couple of beers and you'd find be asleep under the table. beer just does that too me for some reason!
)

EDIT : btw.. Alex Kennedy, I wasn't apologizing, I was forgiving you... there's a difference.


[edit on 3/9/04 by muppet]



posted on Sep, 1 2004 @ 12:32 PM
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Come on AK give it a rest, I read Muppets statement and I didnt at all get the same picture, I saw it as a valid attempt to explain hes views.
You attack him, like you attack every one else that dont share the same views, I understand that you are angry but you have to be able to see the difference between a personal opinion and an attack on Free Masonry, I have participated in some of the BS on this site, and some of my claims were made in anger not in rational thinking, but some times you defend you order in anger and that clouds all judgment even that of masons.
There are some big questions concerning masonry, not your little lodge but the grander parts of masonry, why so many masons were presidents why we find all the Masonic symbols in cities, money and congress, also why so many wealthy business men are masons.
And again the secrecy is in it self suspicious, but I guess it has some thing to do with culture we are being watched closer and closer by our government I cant take a s.h.i.t. with out filling out a form and have 10 cops beat down my door, I am being harassed by the police, now this has nothing to do with masons, but my point is I cant do anything secret with out being questioned.
In my culture we do every thing out in the open, the fact that you have to hide something means it s evil, unless its a surprise party or a gift (i.e. something good/ non harmful which is later revealed)
That who has something to hide has something to fear, fear is evil and it controls men.

Now I know I am going to be ASSAULTET AND FLAMMED by the mason ignorant troll of idiocy.
(The above line includes Danish humor and sarcasm and is in no way intended as an insult, but a comic relief at the expense of the excellent masons on this board!)

Bilbo

[edit on 1-9-2004 by NeonHelmet]



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