UFO Propulsion Question

reply to post by Cosmic911

I figured that chances of interplanetary travel is nil if a craft required more than one type of propulsion; one to drive it through space, and another to travel in an atmosphere.

The main issue with interplanetary travel is the distance, which will eventually dictate the propulsion type. Getting into the atmosphere can be accomplished without a propulsion.

Originally posted by boncho

Originally posted by rigel4

Originally posted by boncho

Originally posted by n00bUK
reply to post by boncho

 

But...they're not real(?)

I think you might be on to something.

Really........ You should just accept that you're wrong and shutup.

Sarcastic humour, boncho, I was kidding with ya

In what way was I wrong?

reply to post by rigel4


I haven't had my coffee yet this morning.

Assuming anything is possible...

Given the immense distances needed to travel in between stars, I would have to guess its some kind of physical manipulation involved rather than just a propulsion system. I suppose that would be a step up from some form of stasis or "traditional" propulsion so any advanced intelligent whatever is bound to develop that eventually.

To rely on gravity to provide propulsion seems like a good way to get around when it's around, though once again the next step would seem to self-reliance, so the propulsion system working both near and far away from a gravity well. Though it may not be necessary in the vacuum of space anyways since momentum is permanent for the most part. You could simply accelerate near a large mass objects and use that to reach other bodies, assuming the technology was sufficiently advanced to provide enough acceleration.

A gravity-based interstellar spaceship might be your "cheap mans" spaceship, while a warship or a large cruise liner like spacecraft would want a more reliable, but expensive propulsion method. Similar to the long term reliance we see in nuclear powered warships when compared to other vessels with more traditional propulsion. Though as a civilization advances and gains more and more resources, it seems eventually all of these craft would be phased out and recycled or handed down to some other space faring civilization.

This is assuming all space faring civilizations, should they even exist, are not conquered or assimilated by the most advanced one. If this is or isn't true, its likely any UFO being an alien vessel that visits Earth would probably be a "cheap mans" spacecraft I guess.

But who knows? It could be pretty much anything, ask your government if they know.

Originally posted by moebius
reply to post by Cosmic911

 

I figured that chances of interplanetary travel is nil if a craft required more than one type of propulsion; one to drive it through space, and another to travel in an atmosphere.

The main issue with interplanetary travel is the distance, which will eventually dictate the propulsion type. Getting into the atmosphere can be accomplished without a propulsion.

The current belief among believers is that aliens are visiting us now from other star systems. Which they do without being detected (save a few Chinese Lanterns).

In the spirit of this thread, we should point out that the aliens would need a system that counters the effects of atmospheric descent. (being that we don't see alien ships burning through the atmosphere)

If they were using the old ceramic tile and mica trick, I have a feeling there would be some better quality videos on youtube!

reply to post by moebius


Thanks for the reply!

Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by Larryman

They have already produced light from ZPE (vacuum energy).

 

How much energy did they use to "produce" that light?

The article does not state the amount of energy input.
"Moving mirrors make light from nothing"
www.nature.com...

But the input energy is irrelevant, if no portion of it is passed on to the output light energy. That would only be a measure of efficency... which could improve with further improved techniques - like spinning magnetic super-conductors, to replace the shaking mirrors, for instance.

reply to post by Cosmic911


I don't see why any drive other than some kind of mass/inertia ("gravity") manipulating drive would be necessary, presuming it was capable of FTL (and FTL is the goal).

However, the sci-fi engineer in me doesn't look at it from "how do UFOs work" but "how would you do it?"

I don't like "warp" drives. I don't like "antigravity" - it's too easy.

The main drive system would consist of a very advanced version of VASMIR capable of drawing in atmospheric gasses, ionizing, accelerating, and later compressing to fusion densities with hydrogen injected into the mix. This would function regardless of the atmosphere - though it should be noted that the drive is merely for propulsion and is inherently incapable of power generation (thus, it must be powered by another power source - most likely a larger fusion reactor tied into a central distribution grid).

Outside of planetary atmospheres, it would function like a standard VASMIR with the added ability to inject hydrogen into the mix and compress to fusion densities for "afterburn" - which would only really be used in combat scenarios where the increased impulse is desirable over the loss in drive efficiency.

FTL would be accomplished by a mythological "jump" drive. I prefer the "jump" drive concept over "warp" simply because of its more 'limited' capabilities. A jump drive simply transports the target across space in an instant. It more closely resembles current concepts of "teleportation" - spare for the ship is somehow capable of transporting itself. Range would be limited and require a recharge to initiate the drive again.

Personally, I think we will develop such a system before we are able to do a Star-Trek style warp drive. I also prefer it because of the implications for travel within a stellar system - you would not regularly "jump" within a star system - and it underpins the importance of sub-light drives and still makes space travel a bit of an ordeal (having to travel away from gravitational influences to 'jump' - then travel from the edge of another system on in).

reply to post by TheLoneArcher


It seems anti-matter/matter would be awesome if we could get it to work on a large scale.

Originally posted by Larryman

Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by Larryman

They have already produced light from ZPE (vacuum energy).

 

How much energy did they use to "produce" that light?

The article does not state the amount of energy input.
"Moving mirrors make light from nothing"
www.nature.com...

But the input energy is irrelevant, if no portion of it is passed on to the output light energy. That would only be a measure of efficency... which could improve with further improved techniques - like spinning magnetic super-conductors, to replace the shaking mirrors, for instance.

edit on 10/10/2011 by Larryman because: (no reason given)

I remember this one. It was published before it received a peer review.

How is energy used not relevant?

Study is found here.

reply to post by Larryman

But the input energy is irrelevant, if no portion of it is passed on to the output light energy. That would only be a measure of efficency... which could improve with further improved techniques - like spinning magnetic super-conductors, to replace the shaking mirrors, for instance.

It's not a source of energy. It's in a sense, a magic trick. Although a very long, thought out, highly technical magic trick. Great for physics, but not so great for any realistic use.

Maybe this might help you.

www.youtube.com...

I was surprised to read a statement such as "there is now gravity in space".

Not exact quote I know, but it will have to do.

Actually in open space all the gravity from all the celestrial bodies is closely balanced. This is why a craft would not need as much power to accelerate to a high velocity as it would if on earth.

If a craft were using an antigravity engine, it would only have to introduce an imbalance in order move from place to place. If this engine were controllable enough, it could be used to slow the decent of a craft as it came into a planets atmosphere so it would not heat up from the friction generated as it decended.

Electro-gravitic propulsion, as with the "lifters experiments", could also be useful as they tend to generate a self contained propulsion effect. There again, a slight imbalance in free space could produce a tremendous velocity increase.

The main problem here is the size and weight of the power generating system when close to a planets surface. Lifting off from earth would be the biggest test of either system.

Originally posted by Cosmic911
The point of the original question, which I guess I should have clarified, was to help establish (or debunk) the possibility of extraterrestrial life travelling to Earth in space. I was trying to figure out how realistic the possibility is. Not understanding propulsion, anti-gravity, physics, etc, I figured that chances of interplanetary travel is nil if a craft required more than one type of propulsion; one to drive it through space, and another to travel in an atmosphere.

While there's ample reason to be skeptical, the inability of a ship to have multiple means of propulsion isn't a sticking point.

Take a sailboat for example. It can use the sails when there is wind, and when there isn't, many sailboats have an engine that can move the boat as a secondary means of propulsion.

I know a fair amount of physics since that was one of my majors, but your question can't be answered very well with the physics we know. We don't know anything about antigravity drives.

There's an interesting idea about the Alcubierre drive, but it's completely speculative, and we don't know if it can be built or not, but even if it can, it would probably need immense amounts of energy to power it. It's very much like the Warp Drive from Star Trek (remember they used warp drive to go fast and impulse power to go more slowly in that TV show)

I think the best answer to your question is, the aliens would probably need technology and perhaps some physics we're not aware of to effectively travel interstellar distances. No doubt we will learn more about physics in the future than we know today. Whether any of the future discoveries will enable interstellar travel is completely unknown. I'm not aware of anything on the horizon that looks all that promising for even near light speed travel, let alone faster than light. Our technology currently limits us to travel in our own solar system.

At the end of this video, they use the term "God's Quarantine" to describe vast interstellar distances. Until we learn some new physics or technology, the "quarantine" is real for us.

1966 interview with Carl Sagan about UFOs


We have no idea what knowledge or technology aliens may have, that we don't. They may or may not have conquered "God's quarantine". Sagan doesn't rule out the possibility but in 1966 points out the lack of evidence, and even decades later, the same observation about lack of evidence applies.

My thoughts are what if they dont have to "propel" themselves thru space? Perhaps they just assemble and de-assemble themselves and their crafts? Or "materialize and de-materialize"? I mean, propulsion is an earthly term I believe, used for lack of better terminology for means of "travel" unknown to us now.
Why do they have to "propel" themselves?

reply to post by LazloFarnsworth


You bring in an interesting possiblity.

If a civilization were advanced enough, could they develope a means of dematerilizing at their home planet and rematerialize at some distant point to which they are projected. This could be possible because the basic material is widely available: ie. atoms of various elements.

The only part which would be projected is the concousness of the particular individual. This would be necessary to be able to bring back the information found at the rematerialization point. Then again the projection of this concousness could be the key to interstallar travel as it may be possible "it" could re-assemble the atoms needed for a body when it arrived.

This may seem very far fetched as of now, but it may turn out to be the best way to accomplish our goals.

Originally posted by Cosmic911

Originally posted by n00bUK
reply to post by boncho

 

But...they're not real(?)

The point of the original question, which I guess I should have clarified, was to help establish (or debunk) the possibility of extraterrestrial life travelling to Earth in space. I was trying to figure out how realistic the possibility is. Not understanding propulsion, anti-gravity, physics, etc, I figured that chances of interplanetary travel is nil if a craft required more than one type of propulsion; one to drive it through space, and another to travel in an atmosphere.

In truth, I think it would be the other way around! The distance between stars is mind-numbingly vast & anyone who truly wishes to explore what's out there will need some form of FTL travel method. Once they get to their destination, they will need something more practical to explore the planet/solar system etc. It's not feasible for a couple of reasons to use the FTL or primary drive for this. 1) Warping, folding, ripping, stretching space or whatever way they will do it will use up crazy amounts of energy. 2) The speed factor, I doubt even if they could afford to expend the energy, that the primary drive would slow down enough to let them use it to travel across a planet.

If we wanted to travel out into the stars & beyond we would need at least 2 methods of propulsion built into any ship we we planning to send out, I don't see how aliens would be any different.

1) FTL to carry you across the vast distances of interstellar space as quickly as possible.

2) A secondary more practical less energy intensive drive that allows you to explore your chosen destination at much slower speeds.

reply to post by hdutton

I was surprised to read a statement such as "there is now gravity in space".

You mean this post? www.abovetopsecret.com...
I am surprised that somebody could be surprised by this statement. Read it in the context. The phenomenon called gravity exists(is observable) in the space known to man, contrary to antigravity or electrogravity.

My thought on the subject? No matter what the propulsion system the UFO's in question would also need a way to phase out of normal space. Why? Space junk. Think about it. A spacecraft able to cross even a solar system at high speeds would probably run into enough space dust to cause large amounts of hull damage. Not to mention what anything larger would do if it crossed paths with your ship.

The only things that would protect a Star Trek type vessel would either be their shield system or their warp system. Put the ship out of phase with reality while in high speed transit mode and only drop out of it when very near the destination. That could also act as some kind of vehicle cloak as well. How would a phase shifted space craft appear at close range? Could you see it even? And would gravity affect it? Propulsion would be a much simpler concept in a phase bubble if gravity simply didn't work inside the bubble.

Just a thought.

I would expect a true "gravity drive" to not care where it is. Gravity is everywhere and influences all bodies in space at all times.

The order of magnitude that one body can exhert on another is of course determined by it's mass. So, little comets and meteor's that fly around us don't really do much to us.

So, having said that, if the ship has enough power to either negate or impose a large enough field, it should fly in almost anything!