There was no political tsunami for Israel after all

reply to post by Weathermen

These kids don't know what they're talking about. They should stick to their coloring books and remember to not draw outside the predetermined lines! Because we know how Israelis like going beyond the line...

All of the territories that are being contested by Palestine were entered during a time of war when Israel was acting in self-defense.

Just a bunch of Islamophobic children who's opinion means less then dirt.

An opinion is worth only what you weight it to be. Why do you think celebrities get paid to market something? What does Micheal Jordan know about batteries, for God's sake? Doesn't matter - he's Micheal #ing Jordan and these are the batteries he likes.

So, what does this mean? Your opinion is less than dirt. You're merely an average human being - a cache of experiences and information that will never be fully recognized by the inferior mind they belong to. The only reason I care to interact with the likes of yourself is to tap those resources so that your existence can be somewhat less insulting to sentience through the greater empowerment of my own.

I can carry on - but it amounts to: "the sentiment is mutual. Would you like help finding a fire?"

Palestinians have the right to self-govern themselves just as Americans and Israelis do.

This is not the issue in the area.

Palestine does "govern" itself (if that is what you want to call it). The issue stems from when Palestine "governed" itself to launch attacks against Israel. Israel then used its military to dispatch the forces attacking it and then proceeded to re-purpose the land to be used for Israeli citizens.

Palestine wants it back. Israel's response is "Piss off. Launch another attack and see what happens."

Again, Palestine attacks. Again, Israel acquires and re-purposes land. Palestine gets upset and wants it back. Israel's response: "Try it again - we can keep this up until you don't have any land left."

Palestine gets a little smarter and starts pitching a fit to the U.N. with the help of the Arab members.

Them saying otherwise makes them no better then Assad and Gaddafi, two people who love to see humans rights ignored.

The only inalienable right you have is the right to make your own choice; regardless of the situation (barring mind-control scenarios that I'm sure members of this site can come up with - but I'd make the argument that you aren't really the one doing anything if you are under mind-control).

You do not have immunity to consequences for those choices. If I hold a gun to your head - you have no rights. Until someone else arrives that is capable of neutralizing the threat to your rights - you have no rights - other than the right to make your own choices and accept the consequences of them.

People complain about the "crimes against Palestine" (the crime being relocation of populations in affected regions) while the Palestinians support suicide bombers and rocket/mortar attacks on Israeli civilians.

Sorry - if you're going to act like that, I have no inclination to come in and protect you. I'll help you find a fire - but that's about it.

Reply to post by Aim64C

Well said.

Will star when I get a chance.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by backinblack

Hamas members are NOT ex Palestinians..

What are you talking about? They are a political party within the Palestinian Authority currently holding the majority of seats.

What an utterly stupid comparison....

You're right. Effectively abducting an ex and chaining her to the basement after killing her current partner actually accomplishes something (twisted as it may be).

What does blowing up random shoppers in an open market do?

It doesn't do anything toward any kind of goal. Sure - it kills Israelis - but it doesn't make them fear Palestine or make them want to regard it as some kind of official force. All it does is kill people and piss the rest off.

It's not even resistance to a superior power or guerrilla tactics. It's senseless, mindless violence.

Though I suppose the comparison can be made. Relying upon Stockholm Syndrome to regain the affections of an ex is not exactly a sound strategy - just like blowing up markets and residential areas is not exactly going to make you recognized as a legitimate nation.

The rest of your post is just the usual pro Israeli crap though at least you are confirming Israel's agenda of expansion, not peace..

As has already been illustrated - Peace with Palestine is simply not a practical goal. Their requirements for "peace" are for Israel to disappear. That's simply not going to happen.

There's no point in even pretending. Israel is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. So it's going to do what is in its interest.

And for your information - I'm not really pro anyone. I'm simply looking at it from a real perspective. We have, as a nation, a positive relationship with Israel. We do trade, have immigration agreements and tourism agreements. I can go to Israel without having to worry about one of their nationals kidnapping me and beheading me on webcam; so their society is alright....

The issue with Palestine is simply none of our concern. We should continue our relationship with Israel and simply offer up our criticism of the situation as a peer service with no real expectations regarding the outcome. They will either work something out or absorb Palestine into their own nation - neither of which really has an impact on us. Palestine is a non-factor. We don't do mentionable trade with them, have any real political agreements or positive aspects of our relationship. A peaceful truce with Israel opens up the potential for them to come to similar agreements with us - or their absorption into Israel will moot the point. In either case - we have nothing to lose from maintaining ties with Israel and nothing to gain from supporting Palestine.

That's your functional and practical overview of the situation.

No "he-said/she-said" bickering about who started what or who has rights to what. Where do we stand? Where will we go if A... if B? Which one is in our best interest?

reply to post by Aim64C


If that rant isn't pro Israeli then I don't know what is..

Maybe we should stop aiding Israel..
Why do they need it and why do they deserve it??

reply to post by backinblack


Really now.

Can you show us a few examples of the pro-Israel slant that you see in that post?

Originally posted by Aim64C
All of the territories that are being contested by Palestine were entered during a time of war when Israel was acting in self-defense.

Israel didn't act in self-defense during the Six-Day War, when they occupied the Palestinian territories.

Originally posted by Aim64C
You're merely an average human being - a cache of experiences and information that will never be fully recognized by the inferior mind they belong to.

This 'inferior mind' has a masters in world history to back it up, compared to the 'lesser' being below me. What about you? Do you have any credentials to talk on the subject?

Originally posted by Aim64C
The issue stems from when Palestine "governed" itself to launch attacks against Israel.

If you really want to talk about the root issue, lets talk about Jewish migration to the holy land in the late 1800's and early 1900's, because that's what the issue stems from.

Or we can go back further and talk about Jewish immigrants from Egypt that arrived in Phoenician controlled territories (Retenu to be precise). Actually, before the Kingdom of Israel ever even materialized, Phoenicia had already founded the cities of Haifa, Jaffa, Caesarea ect.

Originally posted by Aim64C
Palestine wants it back. Israel's response is "Piss off. Launch another attack and see what happens."

Again, Palestine attacks. Again, Israel acquires and re-purposes land. Palestine gets upset and wants it back. Israel's response: "Try it again - we can keep this up until you don't have any land left."

Nice biased approach.

Let me ask you, why are the Palestinians attacking the Israelis? Obviously there has to be a reason. If you say anti-semitism, don't expect a response.

And Israel only acquired the occupied territories after the Six-Day War, something the Palestinians had nothing to do with. It was a political conflict between Israel and her Arab neighbors which Palestinians became the victim of.

Originally posted by Aim64C
Palestine gets a little smarter and starts pitching a fit to the U.N. with the help of the Arab members.

You're acting like the Palestinians going to the UN is something new...

Originally posted by Aim64C
The only inalienable right you have is the right to make your own choice

Which boils down to..? Having the inalienable right to decide who governs you.

Originally posted by Aim64C
You do not have immunity to consequences for those choices. If I hold a gun to your head - you have no rights.

That's what you think. It would be totally within my right to disarm or kill you. But if you were to pull the trigger, you're the one who won't have any rights while sitting in a 5x5 cell. #, you don't even need to pull the trigger, and you still will have less rights than I.

Originally posted by Aim64C
Until someone else arrives that is capable of neutralizing the threat to your rights - you have no rights - other than the right to make your own choices and accept the consequences of them.

So are you saying, that unless the Palestinians rise up and fight off their oppressor, they have no rights? But just before, you were bashing the Palestinians for attempting to liberate themselves through an armed struggle.

Originally posted by Aim64C
People complain about the "crimes against Palestine" (the crime being relocation of populations in affected regions) while the Palestinians support suicide bombers and rocket/mortar attacks on Israeli civilians.

Those Palestinians that do those murderous and evil things are individuals and small terror organizations (that are already listed as terrorist organizations by the UN). The UN can't bring these people to justice, so they just have to take it for what it is, civilians with grievances twords Israel that had enough of their #. On the other hand, Israel is a nation and can be held accountable for its actions.

Hey, you were talking about something like "you have no rights - other than the right to make your own choices and accept the consequences of them."

Has Israel accepted their consequences? Or do they continue to freeload off the protective wing of the United States? That is the whole point of the UN bid. To get Israel to accept the consequences for their actions. Because the Palestinians UN bid is a direct result of a failure in renewed negotiations because of Israeli settlement activity. Now, why can't Israel take responsibility and accept the consequences? Israel is like the spoiled little brat that never gets punished.

reply to post by Weathermen


I find it particularly humerous how you and others continue to condem Israel while attempting to downplay / excuse Palestinian actions.

Invoking the US in you aregument is even funnier. You guys have a serious issue of ally envy apparently. If you are that upset about the Us support for Israel then maybe you should direct your anger at the lack of support Russia / China are providing to the other half.

If its a simple case of "disgrunteled palestinian civilians" who are upset with Israel, then they are doing nothing but committing murder. You dont kill innocent people because your pissed at the government, something you and others really should understand before making your argument.

There is no illegal action by Israel when it comes to defending their borders from Arab aggression, such as the 1967 war. If Arabs dont want to lose territory, then maybe they shouldnt start a war they wont win? The settlements in the Westbank arent illegal. The terrirotry was captured during a time of war, and the UN resolution ending that 6 day war was not accepted by Arabs (although syria finally accepted it like 15-20 years later, even though it has not complied with it in totality - recognition of Israel and a peace treaty).

The Palestininas have consistently violated the Oslo Accords, which I note you guys stay away from.

In true form through constantly ignoring history, the Palestinians will continue a war they cant win. Its apparent they dont want peace through the elected government. They made their own beds, and now they must sleep in it.


Out of curiosity though since you and some others are so strongly opinionated on this topic, why do you spend you time in these forums instead of grabbing a homocide vest, suiting up and blowing up Israeli civilians? You feel so strongly on this topic, yet you dont do anything to support it.

Why is that? Or is it one of those you support the cause in earnest because your hidden behind your monitor, using western freedoms to push an anti western agenda?

Ironic

reply to post by Xcathdra

There is no illegal action by Israel when it comes to defending their borders from Arab aggression, such as the 1967 war. If Arabs dont want to lose territory, then maybe they shouldnt start a war they wont win?

On 20 more years people may start to believe Israel was attacked,but not now..

Though it's getting boring correcting the obvious propaganda..

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Aim64C

 

If that rant isn't pro Israeli then I don't know what is..

Maybe we should stop aiding Israel..
Why do they need it and why do they deserve it??

Who is “we” ?
Aren't you from NZ ?

reply to post by backinblack

On 20 more years people may start to believe Israel was attacked,but not now,Though it's getting boring correcting the obvious propaganda

your usual old argument rely solely on Israel's preemptive strike against Egypt.
I have shown you time and time again that that has nothing to do with the other fronts, especially the eastern front and Jordan / "Palestinians" attacking Israel – hence the west bank / Judea & Samaria / territories issue.
For someone who constantly confront other posters with words like BS / Crap, you should really take a step back and smell your own.

reply to post by gravitational


No, not from NZ..
Aussie, but we support them too, well our Government does..

reply to post by gravitational


Was Israel attacked on those fronts before or after it launched an attack on Egypt? I think you will find the answer is after. Syria, Egypt and Jordan all shared a defence pact and entered the conflict upon Israel attack on Egypt. Not to mention the Syrian front was rather complexing. In fact there was alot of debate in the Israeli cabinet (propogated oftenly by Moshe Dayan) to not seize the Golan Heights. Only after Israel discovered intelligence that the Arab alliance was crumbling and Egypt had told Syria to cease hostility as they had lost, did Israel decide to launch the offensive and capture the Golan Heights. But the underlying question is who attacked first and I am pretty sure you know the answer. I'll give you a clue... It isn't Luxemburg.

@backinblack. Yes it is rather sad the extent in which Australia supports Israel in the general assembelly. Instead of abstaining from votes regarding the Israel-Arab conflict (like the recent state-hood bid) we oftenly vote with America in support of Israel due to American pressure and the pressure of the Jewish vote and Jewish lobbys in Australia. In fact, Kevin Rudd (our foreign minister for those residing outside of Australia) recently advocated abstaining in regards to the Palestinian statehood bid, but Julia Guillard (the primeminister) reaffirmed that we would vote in opposition to the resolution.

Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by backinblack

 

On 20 more years people may start to believe Israel was attacked,but not now,Though it's getting boring correcting the obvious propaganda

your usual old argument rely solely on Israel's preemptive strike against Egypt.
I have shown you time and time again that that has nothing to do with the other fronts, especially the eastern front and Jordan / "Palestinians" attacking Israel – hence the west bank / Judea & Samaria / territories issue.
For someone who constantly confront other posters with words like BS / Crap, you should really take a step back and smell your own.

Why don't you read the posts instead of your usual twisted rants??
If you did then you would note I was replying to this post,

There is no illegal action by Israel when it comes to defending their borders from Arab aggression, such as the 1967 war.

Note the BS Crap in that post???

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


Oh, here comes the Cavalry.

So let's see.

Egypt did not blockade the straits of Tiran, did not close the Suez canal, did not expelle UN peacekeepers from the Sinai peninsula, the Soviet Union did not encourage the Arab states to fight Israel, Nasser had engineered the Arab unity that he had judged necessary to confront Israel, he did not openly declare that the time had come to destroy the Jewish state, and he did not fortify and transferred his forces deep into the Sinai desert, and Egypt did not send a false message to Jordan saying the Egyptian army is wining and that Jordan should join the attack.

In fact, Israel's neighbors were peace loving down to earth rational people who wanted nothing but to visit Tel aviv and drink hot coffee with Jews.

Ok listen, I encourage you to send your parallel universe scripts to “Fringe” . They might find them useful.

reply to post by backinblack

Note the BS Crap in that post???

have you taken a step back to smell your own?
Are you saying Israel is not entitled to protect its people, or are you saying there is no Arab aggression?

reply to post by gravitational

Egypt did not blockade the straits of Tiran, did not close the Suez canal, did not expelle UN peacekeepers from the Sinai peninsula, the Soviet Union did not encourage the Arab states to fight Israel, Nasser had engineered the Arab unity that he had judged necessary to confront Israel, he did not openly declare that the time had come to destroy the Jewish state, and he did not fortify and transferred his forces deep into the Sinai desert, and Egypt did not send a false message to Jordan saying the Egyptian army is wining and that Jordan should join the attack.

Take this, and change it so did not = did and did = did not. That is my view of history, I don't know whats wrong with yours. That is not your typical line you tug. None-the-less it dosen't change the fact that Israel was the first to attack.

I honestly don't see how what I posted previously is wrong in any sense. Did or did not Israel only attack Syria after it intercepted inetlligence from Egypt to Syria admiting failure? Was there or was there not internal debate within Israel prior to the interception of this intelligence often propogated by Moshe Dayan? Did Israel attack Egypt first before Syria or Jordan attack Israel or did it not? Answer all these questions (I know you enjoy ignoring facts) and you will see my conclusion of events is correct.

Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by backinblack

 

Note the BS Crap in that post???

have you taken a step back to smell your own?
Are you saying Israel is not entitled to protect its people, or are you saying there is no Arab aggression?

Again you quote only part of my post to twist the meaning..

You were "wrong" in your last response but merely ignore my post and move on to more BS..

Then YOU want me to answer you?

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


It's called a preemptive strike. It is done to take tactical command of events on the battlefield and put pressure on your enemy.

Perhaps you should take a step back and ask yourself: "How were all of these countries around Israel able to attack... in unison... within hours of Israel's preemptive strike on Egypt?"

Unless you are a fool, you realize the logistical implications.

Israel was faced with a very real threat of invasion across multiple fronts. Not only were those countries demanding Israel cease to exist, they were also mounting forces at their borders in preparation for a combined invasion.

There was no question of whether or not there would be a war. The Arabs made that pretty clear. Israel simply answered when it would be - and it would be before the Arabs were all prepared and organized to charge into Israel.

If you see a problem with that - then you have put on the "I hate Israel" glasses and decided to look at the situation through them. The only way Israel can be condemned for those actions is if you first decide that you don't like Israel... or you're just stupid (I place my bet on both - this isn't an XOR operation).

reply to post by Aim64C

The only way Israel can be condemned for those actions is if you first decide that you don't like Israel... or you're just stupid (I place my bet on both - this isn't an XOR operation).

Who's condemning Israel? I'm not. Nice to see you call me stupid for something I hadn't even done yet. Coming to assumptions is stupid too.

Who hates Israel? I certainly don't. I hope they prosper and live in peace. Of course some would claim I hate Jews simply because I want Israel to return to the pre-June 1967 borders.

Is anything I said on this thread factually incorrect? No. So what is the problem?