Oh, so your a libertarian!! cool!

Originally posted by 27jd
Other drugs like heroin, coke, meth, etc. not only can kill you, it can cause you to kill others, there was a father here in AZ a few years ago who beheaded his own child because he had been up on meth for who knows how long and claimed he thought his son was the devil. Why would you support these harmful substances being legalized?

[edit on 26-8-2004 by 27jd]

More people die from ASPRIN than ALL illgeal drugs combined

Should asprin be illegal?

Originally posted by Amuk

When I was a kid you could buy TNT at the hardware store, no-one needed to show ID to get a gun, pot was grown fairly openly, welfare was unheard of, you could buy the stuff to make meth at the same hardware store, EVERYBODY was armed, hell I took a gun to SCHOOL so I could go hunting afterwards, most people didnt even have a freaking drivers Lic. much less a permit for a gun.

And Guess what?

The world didnt come to an end. People werent killing each other in the streets etc.

Mention about how people didn't need insurance to see the doctor, BECAUSE THEY COULD AFFORD IT! My grandpa and I were talking about that one.

Why was it so affordable? LESS REGULATIONS/RED TAPE!

Originally posted by Amuk
More people die from ASPRIN than ALL illgeal drugs combined

Should asprin be illegal?

Probably because alot more people take aspirin, if these substances were made legal, aspirin would lose its standing quick. People don't seek out aspirin for recreational purposes. Also to continue with TL's point about moderation, these substances do not allow moderation, they quickly cause physical dependence, and addiction (two different things). I have personally witnessed normally responsible individuals who have taken these substances lose all control and rationality, I myself have had my run with meth in particular (about 10 years ago), there is no moderation when you are addicted. Not to mention the problems involved with these addicted, broken individuals getting ahold of the readily available, fully automatic firearms if they were to be legalized. Not a country I would feel safe in.

I live back in the woods surrounded by Moonshiners pot growers and meth labs all three of which are illegal.

Everyone here is armed to the teeth and most have booby traps on there property and none of this bothers me in the least. I dont bother them and they dont bother me.

Isnt that what America is all about?

Originally posted by Amuk
I dont have a problem with them having ANY weapon including an RPG, if you really wanted to kill a bunch of people a trip Wal-Mart will give you everything you need to make one hell of a bomb.The Twin Towers were took down with a box cutter and the building in OKC was taken down with fertilizer. If you really want to kill a bunch of people a gun isnt the way to go.

When I was a kid you could buy TNT at the hardware store, no-one needed to show ID to get a gun, pot was grown fairly openly, welfare was unheard of, you could buy the stuff to make meth at the same hardware store, EVERYBODY was armed, hell I took a gun to SCHOOL so I could go hunting afterwards, most people didnt even have a freaking drivers Lic. much less a permit for a gun.

And Guess what?

The world didnt come to an end. People werent killing each other in the streets etc.

Society was much different back then, it took a lot less to get by, and as being watched by them said, even healthcare was affordable. Now people are alot more likely to snap under the pressure of society and the fast lane we live in. Not to mention you likely did not live in a big city, where you don't know everybody and you don't have the support of the community. Also not to mention the sheer number of people in this country has grown, so the law of averages is that alot more people are going to lose it. But it sounds like a cool way to grow up Amuk, I wish it was like that today, I was a city kid, I wish I could've grown up in a small town.

Originally posted by 27jd
I have personally witnessed normally responsible individuals who have taken these substances lose all control and rationality, I myself have had my run with meth in particular (about 10 years ago), there is no moderation when you are addicted. Not to mention the problems involved with these addicted, broken individuals getting ahold of the readily available, fully automatic firearms if they were to be legalized. Not a country I would feel safe in.

A responsable person will no more get addicted to meth than booze or any thing else.
You can eat yourself to death should the government measure out your food portians for you?

Originally posted by Amuk
I live back in the woods surrounded by Moonshiners pot growers and meth labs all three of which are illegal.

Everyone here is armed to the teeth and most have booby traps on there property and none of this bothers me in the least. I dont bother them and they dont bother me.

Isnt that what America is all about?

Where you live and where I live are two different places, two different Americas. If everybody is growing their own pot and making their own meth, then there is no need for them to rob you because they are not junk sick and needing money for more, they just make it. And what about heroin? Probably not too much of that there, when people get on that crap they do nothing else, and are interested in nothing else, they almost always become homeless squatters. At least tweakers are somewhat productive, LOL.

Originally posted by Amuk
A responsable person will no more get addicted to meth than booze or any thing else.
You can eat yourself to death should the government measure out your food portians for you?

You cannot reason your way out of physical dependence, its physical, and booze is just as bad as meth, I'm watching my own mother and father wasting away from alcoholism, and I'm trying to stop my girlfriend from going down the same path. But you're right technically it should not be anybodys right to tell somebody what they can put in their body, and I just have to sit around and watch them die. But as far as adding more fuel to the fire, I personally am against it, but I do not judge those who are not, and I do not judge those who are addicted they have a sickness, and should be helped not judged, if I posted I am against decriminalization, I mis-posted. I do not think drug offenders should be jailed, but I am against legalization of anything other than weed, but again people should NOT be punished, they should be helped (if they want it). But we should not make it easy for them to obtain their poison, personally I think alcohol is also a poison, but it is my decision not to drink, and mine alone.

[edit on 26-8-2004 by 27jd]

Originally posted by 27jd
IIf everybody is growing their own pot and making their own meth, then there is no need for them to rob you because they are not junk sick and needing money for more, they just make it.

Exactly

That IS MY POINT

[edit on 26-8-2004 by Amuk]

27jd,

There's more people statistically speaking w/ an alcohol problem the chemical drugs....Such as meth..........
Guess who kept voting for more red tape after more red tape?? And now guess who feels inadaquete and feels there is nowhere else to turn??

Well everybody just close your eyes and hope for the best because thats what ya'll are doing....

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by 27jd
IIf everybody is growing their own pot and making their own meth, then there is no need for them to rob you because they are not junk sick and needing money for more, they just make it.

Exactly

That IS MY POINT

[edit on 26-8-2004 by Amuk]

That may be fine in a little town, but in the big city, everybody being sleep deprived and paranoid, can only be a bad thing, speed causes paranoia, hence the boobytraps, imagine that paranoia x 1,000,000 people, maybe in NYC, or LA, imagine the insanity if it was balls to the wall, any drug goes, gunfights would erupt all over. You cannot equate the backwoods with the big city, again, two different worlds.

Originally posted by TrueLies
27jd,

There's more people statistically speaking w/ an alcohol problem the chemical drugs....Such as meth..........
Guess who kept voting for more red tape after more red tape?? And now guess who feels inadaquete and feels there is nowhere else to turn??

Well everybody just close your eyes and hope for the best because thats what ya'll are doing....

Right, theres more people because its legal, if meth were legal, the meth statistics would skyrocket, and logically so.

Originally posted by 27jd
Where you live and where I live are two different places, two different Americas. If everybody is growing their own pot and making their own meth, then there is no need for them to rob you because they are not junk sick and needing money for more, they just make it. And what about heroin? Probably not too much of that there, when people get on that crap they do nothing else, and are interested in nothing else.

So your concerned with people having certain guns to do certain bad things and you seem to care about heroin user's not being productive, so that being said, you want to outlaw heroin that people are getting high on already AND red tape the gun issue so that people can't possibly do bad things, which these criminal minds already do, which btw the bad guys usually get their gun off the black market so it can't be traced back to them...

So, where do you draw the line? YOu can't make the world a perfect place, you can't red tape every single issue. These problems are going on, and they will continue to go on. Legalizing drugs and guns won't make the matter any worse then it is...
Turd brains are always going to be turd brains, you can't make the country suffer because you don't feel safe taking the red tape away... Nothing is going to change, if anything is going to change, it will be your freedoms.. And for the better... And don't forget, the law enforcement is going away, so don't think you won't be protected... If that's what your worried about...

So,what's your take? What do you propose??

I propose the legalization of marijuana, and the de-criminalization of the use of other drugs, meaning, they are not legal, but people are not thrown in jail for being sick. As for guns, I say keep things the way they are. I don't know about where you live, but here in AZ, as long as you don't have a record, you can walk out of the gun shop with pretty much anything, AK's, M-16's, Uzi's, etc. just not FULLY automatic. I bought a MAC-11 in less than half hour, and it fires as fast as you can squeeze the trigger, but it's not FULLY automatic, I also have an SKS, it uses the same ammo as an AK and will shoot through an engine block, it's way too much for home protection because it will go right through the offender, through the apt wall, into the next, and possibly into the head of a sleeping child in the next building. Imagine that, but FULLY automatic. That's the problem, and a handgun is totally sufficient for home protection. I would never use the SKS.

Originally posted by 27jd
I would never use the SKS.

So you just have it to say you have it? Same deal with my friend...he has an AK-47 - he actualy stole it tho...I watched him do it...we pulled up to some McDonalds and this idiot had left his window down and his AK in the front seat - now it just sits in his gun cabinet cuz he can't find the bullets for it and he can't really do anything with it but take it apart and look at it....even if he did have bullets, what would he do?

Like I said in an earlier post...wouldn't it be so much safer and logical for a list of guns to be developed in each respective field of use...wherein when you purchase a gun you must say "I'm using this gun to hunt...or I'm using this gun to protect myself on a trip." And then you select an approved gun for that use....if you are caught using the wrong gun for the wrong job you do time or pay a very large fine....

I guess the arguement would be that if someone breaks into my house I'm going for the closest gun...so why not just keep the guns you know are too powerful for that kind of use in a seperate place....

Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun

Originally posted by 27jd
I would never use the SKS.

So you just have it to say you have it? Same deal with my friend...he has an AK-47 - he actualy stole it tho...I watched him do it...we pulled up to some McDonalds and this idiot had left his window down and his AK in the front seat - now it just sits in his gun cabinet cuz he can't find the bullets for it and he can't really do anything with it but take it apart and look at it....even if he did have bullets, what would he do?

Like I said in an earlier post...wouldn't it be so much safer and logical for a list of guns to be developed in each respective field of use...wherein when you purchase a gun you must say "I'm using this gun to hunt...or I'm using this gun to protect myself on a trip." And then you select an approved gun for that use....if you are caught using the wrong gun for the wrong job you do time or pay a very large fine....

I guess the arguement would be that if someone breaks into my house I'm going for the closest gun...so why not just keep the guns you know are too powerful for that kind of use in a seperate place....

It was given to me by my girlfriends brother, because he didn't trust himself with it. I just use it for target shooting out in the desert (against a mountain of course). It's an awesome gun, but your right, it's overkill and dangerous in the city, I do NOT use it for home protection. The MAC-11 would work fine for that, it only uses 9mm rounds.

[edit on 26-8-2004 by 27jd]

Mail it to me, i'm out in the country... I could use for target practice, there's lot's fields around here... kidding... Im scared of guns... Just cuz the sound is so loud.. I'm even afraid of the sound of a lawnmower... Really, i'm a pussy..

A couple of years ago a freshman student at SUNY Plattsburgh was rushing the frat Psi Epsilon Chi. During his hazing things went terribly wrong, and he died from injuries sustained. His cause of death? Water intoxication.

I'm sure everyone remembers the resourceful fellow who, angry at town officials, bought a bulldozer, turned it into a tank, and destroyed a good portion of Granby, Colorado.

Under the thinking that is being used in this discussion, because someone died from drinking too much water, and a bulldozer got turned into a death machine, owning bulldozers should be outlawed and water should be regulated. Of course this is ridiculous, I just wanted to make the point that because of isolated occurences responsible individuals shouldn't be prohibited from owning, or ingesting, what they want.

It seems to be that Libertarians are coming across as supporting drug abuse. That's far from the truth. We support treating the illness, as opposed to putting someone in jail, or fining them for their addiction. We also think it's much safer for people that are going to use drugs to use clean ones. The drugs bought on the street are much dirtier then those you'd buy in pure form.

I don't believe the statement that Meth use would skyrocket if drugs were legalized to be accurate. One main thing that drug prohibition does is force people to use more dangerous, stronger drugs (Meth and Crack). Meth-heads use the stuff because it's cheaper then Cocaine and you can make the stuff at home. I think it's more likely that Cocaine use would go up and Meth use would drop. This is just my opinion, but I believe Meth statistics are overblown and driven by emotional stories of strung out users beheading their kids. Sure, Meth addicts do violent things sometimes. So do drunks. So do absolutely crazed people like Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy. Again, anecdotal evidence shouldn't lead to law.

On the issue of guns, all you have to do is take a look at the Swiss. Those people are armed to the teeth with all kinds of assault weapons. I do believe, and I may be wrong about this, but I think you can get a license to own an RPG in Switzerland. Switzerland is one of the safest countries in the world.

Pistol Pete,

As you can see, my drug stance is similar to the LP's, just not the eaxct same. It is not anecdotal, I have watched meth nearly ruin just about everybodys life who starts using it. Not isolated, nearly absolute. If we were to make those drugs readily available, we would be damning those who are genetically pre-disposed to addiction, who may otherwise be law abiding, but once it is easy for the average joe without black market connections to get these things, and legal, they don't have a chance. It may seem like a really good idea now, but wait til someone close (your child, brother, sister, etc.) to you gets addicted to heroin or shooting up speed and begins wasting away, and will stop at nothing to be high. And sure RPG's for everybody, including those who are high on legal meth, paranoid everybody is out to get them, good idea. The reason these are isolated incidents you speak of now, is because these things are illegal, and most people simply are afraid to break the law. Do you honestly trust people to be completely responsible when hopped up on speed, or broke and in need of more heroin? These isolated incidents you speak of WILL become the norm in the Libertarian's society. And as far as I know drugs are illegal in Switzerland, I'm not sure about RPG's, maybe somebody can confirm that. Not that I don't agree with the Libertarians on alot of other issues, just not this one, I've seen ALOT of people on these substances, I know what they do to people, it would not be cool to just let them kill themselves or do harm to others, and they would, you can count on that. And before people bring up the legality of alcohol, let me say this, alcohol is NOTHING compared to some good glass (speed), the feeling of well being and invincibility you get is something that you have to have done it to describe, it is by FAR more addictive than alcohol, I have done both, I hate drinking, it makes me feel like crap during and after, I don't see how people could become addicted to alcohol, but they do, so I know speed and opiates (I've never done heroin, but I have taken Oxycontin, also WAY better than drinking) being legal will cause an epidemic of junkies, I can pretty much guarantee it.



[edit on 26-8-2004 by 27jd]

27jd says,
The reason these are isolated incidents you speak of now, is because these things are illegal, and most people simply are afraid to break the law. Do you honestly trust people to be completely responsible when hopped up on speed, or broke and in need of more heroin? These isolated incidents you speak of WILL become the norm in the Libertarian's society.

If there was no law, people ingesting drugs wouldn't climb in numbers.
The people who aren't doing it now have a reason, and that's because they have a brain, at least give people that much credit, geez.

Do you actually trust people on meth as of now, when the laws make it illegal? usually when people are on meth they end up getting taken in either the meat wagon, or patty wagon, that won't change...

You've said that the lp is a party for hippies, and everybody that's in it, is a hippie. This statement is false, and i'll go and get it if you are going to claim you never said this...
Your talking like people are going to get worse if the laws are changed, nothing is going to change, people will come in contact with meth or heroin sometime in their lives, there is always going to be paranoid people thinking someone's out to get them, taking the red tape away doesn't change a damn thing, and it won't make the numbers climb any higher.

What happened back in the 60s when people were dropping acid on the streets? Didn't everybody just want to love and demand peace?

did you ever see the movie clip of british troops on lsd? They couldn't even think of where they were going, they couldn't even continue their operations because they wanted to climb trees to sing to the birds...

You know, maybe your paranoid theory is a bit of self projection hmm?
(don't go getting mad at me now)