Could these crashes be the new attacks? Reno 9/16, W.V. 9/17., page 2

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reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 07:13 PM by seeker11

I'm going to say that perhaps it's time that some of these antiques be parked in a museum.

2 crashes in less than 24 hours, both very old planes, yeah, I think maybe they should look into the safety of these, because let's face it, nothing lasts forever, and safety should be paramount.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 07:24 PM by hooper

Originally posted by seeker11
I'm going to say that perhaps it's time that some of these antiques be parked in a museum.

2 crashes in less than 24 hours, both very old planes, yeah, I think maybe they should look into the safety of these, because let's face it, nothing lasts forever, and safety should be paramount.

I'm going to have to second that. I know people love to see these old girls still flying around, but when folks are dying and people that have no interest in them are also being endangered, well enough is enough.

That being said, I would venture to guess that some of these antiques probably have less hours on them then a lot of the commercial craft in use today.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 07:34 PM by seeker11

Originally posted by hooper

Originally posted by seeker11
I'm going to say that perhaps it's time that some of these antiques be parked in a museum.

2 crashes in less than 24 hours, both very old planes, yeah, I think maybe they should look into the safety of these, because let's face it, nothing lasts forever, and safety should be paramount.

I'm going to have to second that. I know people love to see these old girls still flying around, but when folks are dying and people that have no interest in them are also being endangered, well enough is enough.

That being said, I would venture to guess that some of these antiques probably have less hours on them then a lot of the commercial craft in use today.

Yes, but given their age, even if they do have less hours on them, doesn't negate the fact that time in itself probably adds to some degradation of the initial quality, and I think that needs to be taken into account. I'd like to see all of the remaining planes that are being flown in these races undergo some sort of new, vigorous testing. Or at least be inspect even more thoroughly than is required. Perhaps at least, of the airplanes that crashed, those particular models can be grounded until thorough inspections are done. This is my humble opinion of course, I am no expert in this area.

edit on 17-9-2011 by seeker11 because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:07 PM by hooper

reply to post by seeker11

I'm no expert in that field, avaition, however, I know even the most rigorous inspections can't find everything. If there was little to no risk, like driving around in a Model T or a Packard I have no problem but maybe we should just put a expiration date on some of these planes and say thats it, no more flying. I know the same considerations are being made today about nuclear power plants.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:24 PM by seeker11

reply to post by hooper

I'm with you there!
2nd.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:33 PM by Ubhstry

yes, the planes are from that era, but its not the same planes. If I am not mistaken, most of the p51's racing are even shortend by about 10 feet or so. I really dont think the planes are as old as they are. The labor they put into them, and the money, rebuilding and modifying them, I would bet less than 2% is actually left from the initial airplane.

Its like building a brand new 1965 mustang fast back, which I have done. Its a 1965 all right, but its brand new. All I did was buy a vin and title, then build it from the ground up. Every nut and bolt, every frame rail, every body piece. Yes, its a 1965 mustang, but it is for sure not very old.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 08:39 PM by hooper

reply to post by Ubhstry

You may be right, but I kind of look at this way. Imagine tommorow at one of the NFL games a couple of guys came out of nowhere swooping a few feet over the crowds at 200 mph with a couple of brand new planes. Lets igonore the terrorist thing, the guys would be arrested ten seconds after they land for reckless endangerment and risking a catastrophe. But for some reason if you call it an air show.....

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 09:02 PM by Cassius666

Sometimes accidents happen. Think of Rammstein. (Not the band the incident in Rammstein that inspired the pyrocentric band Rammstein)

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 09:15 PM by hooper

Originally posted by Cassius666
Sometimes accidents happen. Think of Rammstein. (Not the band the incident in Rammstein that inspired the pyrocentric band Rammstein)

Was that the crash of the Russian supersonic? Anyway, you're right, accidents do happen. That's we take extra precautions in an around airports, highways, high speed train tracks, etc. But then one day we just let people fly planes in ways and in places that would not be otherwise acceptable, mainly, because "accidents happen".

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 09:44 PM by MRuss

Back in the 90's and later, my Dad went to three airshows in the span of a few years...

and at each one, a plane crashed and the pilot died.

We used to tell him he was a jinx and that we wouldn't go to any airshows with him!

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 11:33 PM by lspilot6946

Originally posted by seeker11
I'm going to say that perhaps it's time that some of these antiques be parked in a museum.

2 crashes in less than 24 hours, both very old planes, yeah, I think maybe they should look into the safety of these, because let's face it, nothing lasts forever, and safety should be paramount.

All N-numbered aircraft in the United States are required to have a annual inspection done. These high performance race planes and aerobatic planes are put through even more inspection by the pilot and the safety crew operating them. Because of this annual inspections and the sheer safety aspect of things, these old aircraft air just as safe if not safer then new ones. Yes there is inherit danger when flying on the edge of the envelope and thats a risk that these pilots take, and we as spectators take as well by going to these events. I can tell you though that ever since rammstein the safety procedures and have changed. Planes performing stunts can no longer perform aerobatics towards a crowd just in case something were to go wrong...so in the United States you will never see a manuver towards the crowd, unless there is ample room giving a emergency the pilot can make a emergency landing or crash. All airshows I've been involved with have a crash box, where all the maneuvers are performed in for the safety of the crowd. I don't know about Reno cause I've never attended the event. I am sure there is some type of crash box there as well, but accidents do happen. People who put on these shows do everything they can to make it as safe and enjoyable as possible. It was a accident and nothing needs to become of it...nothing major anyway.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 11:51 PM by Dr Expired

Originally posted by Nucleardiver

Originally posted by Dr Expired
Valid question no doubt.
Could be bad fuel?
Does anyone know of the backgrounds of the pilots?
Of the aviation crews?
Where are the planes serviced?
It is curious .

Jimmy Lived about a half mile from me in Ocala Fl and while I didn't know him personally I had meet him several times and he was a well known racing and stunt pilot that had also worked in films since the early 1980's. Short of some unforseen physical problem that mayhave occured in flight, he was a great and skillfull pilot. He was known on the racing circuit as the best.

Last I knew his plane was kept at his hanger on his runway and he had mechanics that worked on it there. That may have changed tho.

Yes I meant no disrespect of this mans memory, and perhaps we should all think first sometimes before posting.
I just want to give my respects to this man, and apologise if I offended his memory.

reply posted on 17-9-2011 @ 11:58 PM by seeker11

reply to post by lspilot6946

I understand that obviously there are accidents and they are inspected thoroughly. However in the event that there were 2 crashes in less than 24 hours of antique planes I am of the opinion that maybe there is something more to it, however it could just be coincidence as well.

Maybe they'll have to look into the safety of where they are flying now, and have the crowd be far removed from the action.

However, I guess it is always watch at your own risk. No one forced them to be there (no disrespect intended whatsoever) a very unfortunate, tragic event.

reply posted on 18-9-2011 @ 01:16 AM by lspilot6946

Originally posted by seeker11
reply to post by lspilot6946

I understand that obviously there are accidents and they are inspected thoroughly. However in the event that there were 2 crashes in less than 24 hours of antique planes I am of the opinion that maybe there is something more to it, however it could just be coincidence as well.

Maybe they'll have to look into the safety of where they are flying now, and have the crowd be far removed from the action.

However, I guess it is always watch at your own risk. No one forced them to be there (no disrespect intended whatsoever) a very unfortunate, tragic event.

The T-28 is still used for training to this day and the P-51 was still used for active combat I believe in to the 90's with other countries...all this was, was coincidence, nothing more. Way, way , way more people die daily in car crashes, you dont see massive changes in the way we drive or protocal.

reply posted on 18-9-2011 @ 09:13 PM by pshea38

Why does pilot jimmy look photoshopped into the picture?
I also do not understand the reflection in the glass.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Also a google image search only throws up the same four or five pictures.
Shouldn't there be a ton more considering he is reported to be such a well
known stunt pilot?

I have a problem with this photo of jimmy.

His reflection doesn't look right, either on the side panel (where it looks painted) or the wing.
Are his hands mushed up and translucent?
The quality of the picture is terrible and I haven't been able to find a larger size.
There sure is a lot of pixelation though.

Fakery Red Flag Alert!!! (Again)

Some of the other pictures are dodgy also, if anyone is interested. And the story
in the above posted link comes across as suspicious!

edit on 18-9-2011 by pshea38 because: photo didn't show

reply posted on 18-9-2011 @ 09:17 PM by seeker11

Originally posted by lspilot6946

Originally posted by seeker11
reply to post by lspilot6946

I understand that obviously there are accidents and they are inspected thoroughly. However in the event that there were 2 crashes in less than 24 hours of antique planes I am of the opinion that maybe there is something more to it, however it could just be coincidence as well.

Maybe they'll have to look into the safety of where they are flying now, and have the crowd be far removed from the action.

However, I guess it is always watch at your own risk. No one forced them to be there (no disrespect intended whatsoever) a very unfortunate, tragic event.
The T-28 is still used for training to this day and the P-51 was still used for active combat I believe in to the 90's with other countries...all this was, was coincidence, nothing more. Way, way , way more people die daily in car crashes, you dont see massive changes in the way we drive or protocal.

I actually meant to post this here but posted it in the other thread...

Perhaps it wasn't simply a freak accident after all...

It will be interesting to see if they are able to confirm this as the cause of the accident, and if they do, perhaps all of the P-51's should be grounded, at least for this sort of intensive acrobatic flying that involves spectators in close proximity to the area. I think having 2 cases of the same thing happening, one almost causing death, and the other causing pilot death as well as spectator death and mass injuries, then I do think that steps should be taken to minimize all the risks, even if that means grounding this particular model for these types of races in the future.

As Reno rethinks air races, possible cause of crash is seen

Witnesses said they saw a part fall from Jimmy Leeward’s P-51 Mustang seconds before it pitched up then straight down into the spectator area...

“Without the trim tab, the aircraft may have been uncontrollable,” writes Mike Danko on his Aviation Law Monitor blog.

If that was the cause of the accident, then it wouldn’t have been the first time at the Reno Air Races.

“There was an incident during the 1998 Reno Air Races in which a trim tab came off a P-51 named Voodoo Chile,” writes Russ Niles, editor-in-chief of AvWeb. “In that incident … the aircraft pitched violently up, causing pilot Bob Hannah to black out under a G load estimated at 10 Gs. He regained consciousness at 9,000 feet and was able to land safely.”

If the broken trim tab was the cause of Friday’s accident, that means it’s likely that the pilot’s age (he was 74) was not a factor.
edit on 18-9-2011 by seeker11 because: (no reason given)