The United States of Israel

Originally posted by Pocky8
All this conflict over forcing israel to give up their country and share it with palestine is completely unreasonable. It seems that Israel is constantly being blamed for all the wars and conflict but it is not entirely their fault.. The US should seriously stop forcing them to abandon their land because it is entirely unreasonable to say that the Palestinians are rightfully obligued to the area, and as a result forcefully make Israel share the land with them...

No right to their own country? How about the FACT that they were the MAJORITY there before Israel was created? How come you believe Israel had a right to their country even though they were a MINORITY, yet you don't acknowledge that Palestinians have the same rights? Racist much?

Originally posted by Pocky8
All this conflict over forcing israel to give up their country and share it with palestine is completely unreasonable. It seems that Israel is constantly being blamed for all the wars and conflict but it is not entirely their fault.. The US should seriously stop forcing them to abandon their land because it is entirely unreasonable to say that the Palestinians are rightfully obligued to the area, and as a result forcefully make Israel share the land with them...

Can you tell us one thing that the US has forced Israel to do ?

reply to post by bigyin


Not a thing really, which isn't surprising given that US politicians seem to be sock puppets of Israel.

If we are going to do semantics..."force" may not be the word as much as pressure..only a few months ago obama suggested that israel go back to its 1967 borders...why is this unreasonable?..only because they won that land fair and square through battle..will someone please tell me why even after being recognized by the UN ...even after fighting over two wars both of which they won...WHY does it have to fight for its right to exist STILL
and just in case your interested here is netanyahu doing the most gentlemanly "shove it" there ever was.
www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by NuancesRkey
If we are going to do semantics..."force" may not be the word as much as pressure..only a few months ago obama suggested that israel go back to its 1967 borders...why is this unreasonable?..only because they won that land fair and square through battle..will someone please tell me why even after being recognized by the UN ...even after fighting over two wars both of which they won...WHY does it have to fight for its right to exist STILL
and just in case your interested here is netanyahu doing the most gentlemanly "shove it" there ever was.
www.youtube.com...

So according to you, it's perfectly fine to invade other people's land and then keep it if you want that land...got it. And those who lose it should just roll over and give up, right?

The only reason Israel got that land in the first place was through the international community allowing it. Palestinians should have the same right, and eventually they'll get it.

Do you have any idea how much those wars drive up the cost of living in Israel for regular folk? To the point where they regular people protest against it!

Why doesn't the government listen to them? Because they're controlled by a bunch of religious nutjobs who believe in fairy tales, and they are hellbent at finally getting Jerusalem for good. It's a conflict based on friggin' fairy tales (from both sides)! There's ZERO objective evidence for a creator or the significance of Jerusalem, yet they act as if this is some weird real-life dungeons and dragons game. Like a bunch of stupid children...

Also, think about how much TAX PAYER MONEY this costs!! So those bought Israeli sock-puppets in Washington spend billions on Israeli aid, yet expect their own people to accept cuts. And people are ok with this? Really?

around and round we go...you asked if it is ok for a country to invade another just because they want to...uh...ya it is...it has gone on for thousands of years...all through history when one country wants a land they fight for that land...MILITARILY ...key word here...now leaving out all of the religous stuff...that is what israel did...the UN awarded israel a state because the jewish people needed a place to be where they could be jewish in peace. Was that land totally deserted? obviously not..does it suck for the people that were there before i.e. the "palestinians" that they were now part of a country they may have not wanted to be?...sure!...but thats the way it goes. Israel fought militarily for their state not once but twice i stress again...MILITARILY...what the palestinians are doing would be fine and legitimate if they were fighting militarily but instead they are literally having a temper tantrum trying to get mommy to finally give them what they want without actually earning it fair and square...none of this "it was theirs to begin with" stuff...because truthfully it doesnt matter whose it was first it matters who wants it enough to fight MILITARILY for it...THAT my friend is the difference between the two sides

reply to post by MrXYZ


Democracy has never had a great foothold in the US. The Republic has always been more or less ruled by a plutocratic patrician class since day one. The Founders were wealthy land owning businessmen.

Regardless, we are far from losing our status as hyperpower.

1. We still maintain the largest navy and air force on earth, with enough firepower to fight Russia and China at the same time and win. 11 carrier strike groups, 12 expeditionary strike groups, over 3000 fourth and fifth generation combat aircraft, and over 150 strategic bombers, including 20 B-2 stealth bombers.

2. We have a GDP over $14 trillion, the highest in the world. China, at its current growth rate, could catch up with the US in about 5-6 years. Contrary to popular ignorance, the US actually out manufactures China by around 40%. with over $2 trillion dollars on goods. We purchase far more from China, around $300 billion in imports annually, then what they invest in the US annually. At the same time we have a national debt of over $14 trillion, the majority owed to the US Federal Reserve, US foreign debt equals over $4 trillion, but here is the kicker almost never heard on the news or ATS, the world is in debt to the US at least over $15 trillion. Remember the trillions of dollars of loans by the US Federal Reserve? Right now we are in the process of placing the EU in a massive amount of debt, by loaning them money to bailout the PIIGS nations.

3. The US has enough energy in shale and tar sand, equal to over 2.6 trillion barrels of oil, enough to fuel the US at current consumption for over 330 years. In comparison, Saudi Arabia only has around 260 billion barrels in oil reserves.

With developments in military drones, establishment of orbital superiority/supremacy, and energy prouction, the US stands to expand its power over the next few decades, while think tanks see China collapsing under the weight of its own rapid growth by 2020. We already see whats happening to the EU. Without a unified Europe or China, the US will achieve a kind of dominance over the world never seen before in human history.

There will be price for that though in the collapse of the US middle class and the standard of living for most Americans, while corporations grow in power and wealth. Developing nations and rivals will be exploited, manipulated and extorted. There are even some projections predicting the US will form and lead some type of world government by 2030.

What does that mean for Israel and the Palestinians?

For Israel, our relationship with them has not always been on the best of terms, especially prior to 1967. They are a US client state and will continue to be one as long as they are useful in the grander game of geopolitics.
They are a strategic foothold for American interests in the Middle East.

The Palestinians on the other hand sadly have nothing to offer. If they are given independence, they will be unable to support themselves and will depend on handouts from the US and other nations to pay for their budgets and debts. They will be the Haiti of the Middle East. They will likely get their independence at some point, but it will be on US terms.

With a rising potential threat, far greater than Iran, in the form of Turkey, the US has to maintain the balance of power in the Middle East, keeping any single nation from dominating the region. This means keeping Israel strong, especially as we draw down forces in the region.

Most people won't want to hear any of this. Its a brutal and blunt reality facing the world. The US is the master of misdirection and manipulation. Many of the viewpoints expressed on ATS are testament to that mastery, showing how well social and memetic engineering has people convinced that Israel or China, depending on who you ask, controls the US. The actual reality on the other hand is that Israel and China are US clients. I would even go so far as saying that Israel is almost a de facto US Dominion and as such the US will continue to take steps to safeguard that dominion, regardless of what the world says or wants.

reply to post by MikeboydUS

1. We still maintain the largest navy and air force on earth, with enough firepower to fight Russia and China at the same time and win. 11 carrier strike groups, 12 expeditionary strike groups, over 3000 fourth and fifth generation combat aircraft, and over 150 strategic bombers, including 20 B-2 stealth bombers.

Yet for some reason you still haven't won in Iraq/Afghanistan...after 10 years!! But of course Russia and China are weaker than those well equipped Taliban fighters, right?

In short, yes, the US has a giant military power, but no, that won't ensure their superpower status if they can't afford to actually wage war (apart from the fact that they haven't been effective at all the past 10 years). It's not as if the US has any money to stage such a war.

2. We have a GDP over $14 trillion, the highest in the world. China, at its current growth rate, could catch up with the US in about 5-6 years. Contrary to popular ignorance, the US actually out manufactures China by around 40%. with over $2 trillion dollars on goods. We purchase far more from China, around $300 billion in imports annually, then what they invest in the US annually. At the same time we have a national debt of over $14 trillion, the majority owed to the US Federal Reserve, US foreign debt equals over $4 trillion, but here is the kicker almost never heard on the news or ATS, the world is in debt to the US at least over $15 trillion. Remember the trillions of dollars of loans by the US Federal Reserve? Right now we are in the process of placing the EU in a massive amount of debt, by loaning them money to bailout the PIIGS nations.

The bottom line is, the US in pretty much the same horrible spot as Ireland...but for some weird reason people ignore it. LINK

3. The US has enough energy in shale and tar sand, equal to over 2.6 trillion barrels of oil, enough to fuel the US at current consumption for over 330 years. In comparison, Saudi Arabia only has around 260 billion barrels in oil reserves.

The difference is, Saudi Arabia can get to their oil without destroying the enivornment (because it's a desert). Check out the last few oil disasters in Alaska...and of course the Gulf of Mexico. How many of those will the US citizens endure without speaking up against it?

You seem to think it's all about military power, when it really isn't in today's world. Money rules the world, and given the state of the US economy, they're losing ground FAST. And why on earth would a Palestinian state be like Haiti??? They are struggling now because of Israeli control, nothing suggests that struggle would continue if they got their own state. As for Israel being a foothold, does that justify suppressing an entire people who lost their land because the international community randomly decided to take it from them and redistribute it to others??? Morals anyone?

I also think you completely overestimate the military power of the US. They spent TRILLIONS in the Iraq/Afghanistan wars, and can you honestly say the US "won"? Really? Let me guess, they won Vietnam too

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reply to post by MrXYZ


Keep in mind, when I say fight Russia and China at the same time and win, I mean on the battlefield.

The war in Iraq is over with. All thats left there are criminals and occasional terrorism that their government can handle. In comparison, the Mexican narco conflict is far worse than Iraq.

The problems in Afghanistan are the same problems, found in any asymetrical war. Its not fighting an opponent on the battlefield. Its fighting an enemy who dresses as a civilian and hides among women and children. So far though, we have performed above and beyond the Soviets when they were there. Most of the fighting is in the south and originates out of Pakistan. Until we can neutralize the origins in Pakistan, we will still face a minor insurgency. It should be noted that the Afghan insurgency is far less intense than the Iraqi insurgency at its height and its continuing to weaken. Insurgencies take time, we fought one against native tribes here in the US for over 40 years, before it finally broke.

The issue raised on the link by the US financial system involves the entire world's financial system and the story does mention that. The entire global financial system is based on fiat currency and in danger of collapse.

Expect the G-20 and the Bank for International Settlements to form a new Bretton Woods style plan, probably in the next ten years. It will most likely evolve the fiat system and not replace it, leading to the formation of Global Currency Units and a global reserve bank based in Washington DC or NYC.

I'm sure we will have plenty more environmental disasters to come. Some people will get mad. Some will even commit acts of terrorism in response, but it will not stop the wheel of progress. It will roll right over them like it has in the Amazon. Good or bad, the Green River formation will be developed just like the Athabasca oil sands are being developed. It should be mentioned that the Saudis have caused massive environmental damage through their oil industry, especially to the Persian Gulf.

Money rules the world

Note if you look over what I said, this is exactly what I implicated.

I'll explain again.

The US Federal Reserve owns the majority of US debt and the Federal Reserve is owned by US banks. The entire world is in debt to the US over $15 trillion, again to US banks. Right now we are in the process of loaning money from US banks to the EU to bail out the PIIGS nations.

In terms of monetary power, the US Federal Reserve and its owning US banks, have the world by the throat.

And why on earth would a Palestinian state be like Haiti???

There arn't any indicators that they would be remotely productive, the PA are making a gamble to make Palestine a tourist and casino resort, investing millions in hotels, etc. Without any real resources or industry, they will at best end up like Jamaica. With its growing population, lack of education, and unemployment, it will require aid from donor nations to make up for the lack of revenue to cover social welfare programs. If they don't provide these social programs, it will implode as angry, unemployed, and hungry people tear it apart.

Morals went out the window long long ago. I can't think of a major empire in world history that actually ruled morally or ethically. Humans by nature are selfish, ambitious, and aggressive. When a human collective forms that emerges to become a major power, it does so not by morals or ethics, but by threats, force and manipulation.

Like I said before it is a blunt and brutal reality.

In Vietnam, we actually did win the "war". You have to check out the history. Nixon began a bombing campaign that forced North Vietname to sign a cease fire and end the war at peace talks in Paris. In January of 1973, all sides signed the Agreement on Ending the War and Restoring Peace treaty. Henry Kissinger even won a Nobel Peace prize for it. The war was over and we had won. We began to withdraw from Vietnam and then something totally absurd happened.

The US Congress passed legislation, the Case–Church Amendment, in June of 1973, preventing the US from intervening if North Vietnam attacked South Vietnam. The legislation was passed with a veto proof majority.

Not long after the legislation passed, North Vietnam attacked the South. By January 1974, the peace accords were dead. Nixon almost defied Congress and would have had US forces intervene anyway, but the Watergate scandal broke. Nixon resigned as POTUS in August of 1974. Finally on 30 April of 1975, NVA forces took Saigon and the South was no more. We failed to protect a client state, due to partisan political infighting.

We didn't lose Vietnam militarily, we lost it due to asinine politics.

reply to post by MikeboydUS

The war in Iraq is over with. All thats left there are criminals and occasional terrorism that their government can handle.

Again, you are completely overestimating the US military power!! 10 years for crying out loud! And to imply the US won this war in any shape or form is laughable, you might wanna check which months were those with the highest losses. Clue: It wasn't those at the start of the war, this year was worse!!

So saying there's only a few criminals left is laughable...unless you want to imply that all it takes is a few crminials to cause the US its largest losses in 10 years

In terms of monetary power, the US Federal Reserve and its owning US banks, have the world by the throat.

Given that the US$ is now toilet paper compared what it was worth in the past, the above statement is blatantly wrong. It's only a matter of time before the US$ isn't the world's reserve currency any longer...and that's a FACT

reply to post by MrXYZ


Total coalition KIA in Iraq was 0 for August. It was 5 in July. Total for the year so far: 44.

You are thinking of Afghanistan, not Iraq. They are two totally different countries and operations. Even in Afghanistan though, where we have been for almost ten years, remember Iraq was 2003, total US casualties for over 9 years is at 1777.

In the ten years the Soviets were there, they lost almost ten thousand people. We have had 1/5 the fatalities as the Soviets. In the ten years we were in Vietnam, we lost almost 60,000 people.

To say we are losing in Afghanistan, because a few hundred personnel were killed this year is absurd. We lost over 800 personnel a year in Iraq between 2004-2006, and then over 900 in 2007. Roughly double the losses currently in Afghanistan. Yet, by 2008 KIAs dropped dramatically in Iraq. Its patience and perseverence. If we gave up so easily, we would have lost every other war we have fought in. Almost every other war, except for a few, have been far more lethal than the War on Terror. Consider in World War 1, where we would lose thousands in every single battle: We lost over 100,000 men in the 2 years we fought in that war.

Given that the US$ is now toilet paper compared what it was worth in the past, the above statement is blatantly wrong. It's only a matter of time before the US$ isn't the world's reserve currency any longer...and that's a FACT

The Federal Reserve and US Banks owning trillions of dollars of foreign debt has nothing to do with Reserve Currency. They make loans, like they are doing right now to the EU, loans that the EU and others must pay back or we will come collect.

That debt ultimately isn't valued in dollars. Its valued in a unit of account that the global central banking system uses, called Special Drawing Rights, basically a precursor to the Global Currency Unit, whose value is defined by the IMF. The dollar could literally turn to actual crap and it wouldn't matter, the world would still owe a massive debt to the US.

BTW, if you bothered to read and understand what I typed, you would see that I said the US dollar would be replaced. Here I'm quoting myself:

Expect the G-20 and the Bank for International Settlements to form a new Bretton Woods style plan, probably in the next ten years. It will most likely evolve the fiat system and not replace it, leading to the formation of Global Currency Units and a global reserve bank based in Washington DC or NYC.