Scientific Research on Solar System Brown Dwarf and Planet X.

Originally posted by DJW001

"The atmosphere of brown dwarfs are similar to those of gas-giant planets like Jupiter."

Not all brown dwarfs have an atmosphere similar to Jupiter, and many brown dwarfs have a much lower temperature than Jupiter.

Originally posted by DJW001
That means that, like Jupiter, they reflect sunlight in the visible spectrum.

They do not, brown dwarfs are too cool to emit any light, and most can't be seen with regular telescopes, not even Hubble, that's why they can mostly be found in infrared spectrum.

There is even a theory that brown dwarfs could be the missing matter of the universe, and we just haven't been able to detect most of them.

The motion of the stars and galaxies are influenced by material which has not yet been detected. Much of this invisible dark matter, which astronomers call "missing mass", could be made up of brown dwarfs - objects whose mass is between twice that of Jupiter and the lower mass limit for nuclear reactions (0.08 times the mass of our sun).
...

www.ipac.caltech.edu...

Originally posted by DJW001
Granted, a companion brown dwarf is much more distant than Jupiter, but it would form a faint image on any photograph with a long enough exposure.

It would not, thats why they are looking in the infrared spetrum, and astronomers will need about 2 years or more to investigate the images taken by WISE.

Originally posted by DJW001
There have been many complete sky surveys over the past few decades. If you compare them all, you would be able to discover such a planet by its conspicuous secular parallax.

First of all, and again, such a brown dwarf would not appear in the visible spectrum.

Second of all, and again, just because it hasn't been found it does not refute the fact that there is ample evidence that says it exists.

Do you understand what an "unknown gravitational field in our Solar System" means?

Originally posted by DJW001
When you do this, you will have actual evidence and I will personally petition NASA to task Hubble to confirm the discovery.

Ah, so you have personal control over the tasks that NASA gives to the Hubble telescope?...
Not to mention AGAIN, that you need an infrared telescope like WISE to even TRY to find such a body.
Not to mention, AGAIN, that the core of at least some brown dwarfs can be as cold, or warm, as the human body, which makes these even harder to find.

I have also presented evidence, many times over, that the Solar System has been getting an exponential increase in interstellar dust, from an outside source of course which is most probably the interstellar cloud which the Solar System is approaching/entering.

ESA sees stardust storms heading for Solar System

PRESS RELEASE
Date Released: Monday, August 18, 2003
Source: Artemis Society

Until ten years ago, most astronomers did not believe stardust could enter our Solar System. Then ESA's Ulysses spaceprobe discovered minute stardust particles leaking through the Sun's magnetic shield, into the realm of Earth and the other planets. Now, the same spaceprobe has shown that a flood of dusty particles is heading our way.
...........
What is surprising in this new Ulysses discovery is that the amount of stardust has continued to increase even after the solar activity calmed down and the magnetic field resumed its ordered shape in 2001.

Scientists believe that this is due to the way in which the polarity changed during solar maximum. Instead of reversing completely, flipping north to south, the Sun's magnetic poles have only rotated at halfway and are now more or less lying sideways along the Sun's equator. This weaker configuration of the magnetic shield is letting in two to three times more stardust than at the end of the 1990s. Moreover, this influx could increase by as much as ten times until the end of the current solar cycle in 2012.

www.spaceref.com...

Originally posted by DJW001
Until you do that, all you are doing is making excuses for why you have no actual proof of your hypothesis. I am perfectly open to the possibility that such a body exists, it is you who have closed your mind to the possibility that it doesn't.

What you call excuses scientists call investigation and research. Maybe you should try it sometimes...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


I'll skip the point-to-point this time. All of your "evidence" is based on gravity determining the orbits of the planets. So... you admit that gravity is the most important factor at astronomical scales?

Originally posted by DJW001
"... but they are easier to observe because they are alone in space, away from the blinding light of a parent star." How exactly are you interpreting this statement, and how does it support your assertions?

edit on 17-9-2011 by DJW001 because: (no reason given)

Humm, lets see... The Solar System has been getting a steady, and exponential increase in interstellar dust, which would make objets that are in the direction, or general area of this interstellar cloud harder to see in the visible spectrum because insterstellar dust does reflect light from our Sun, and such interstellar dust would also appear even in the infrared spectrum making very cold brown dwarfs very difficult to find in the general area of the interstellar cloud.

Can you add up the facts, or are you going to claim again that presenting facts are excuses?...

Obviously you have no idea what investigating and researching means, but anyway...

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

I'll skip the point-to-point this time. All of your "evidence" is based on gravity determining the orbits of the planets. So... you admit that gravity is the most important factor at astronomical scales?

All you have done is "skip" all the evidence, and then claim evidence, and facts are just excuses, this makes you a troll.

Gravity would suggest a large, or dense amount of mass, large, or dense enough to cause the anomalies in the Solar System, which again takes us back to what could have mass, or density enough to cause this unknown gravitational field which would be strong enough to affect the anomalies which are being affected by such unknown gravitational field?

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Humm, lets see... The Solar System has been getting a steady, and exponential increase in interstellar dust, which would make objets that are in the direction, or general area of this interstellar cloud harder to see in the visible spectrum because insterstellar dust does reflect light from our Sun, and such interstellar dust would also appear even in the infrared spectrum making very cold brown dwarfs very difficult to find in the general area of the interstellar cloud.

So if this cloud of dust is masking very close infra-red bodies in out own solar system, why can we detect even fainter infra-red objects much further away? SNIP


Mod Edit: ALL MEMBERS: We expect civility and decorum within all topics - Please Review This Link.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Gravity would suggest a large, or dense amount of mass, large, or dense enough to cause the anomalies in the Solar System, which again takes us back to what could have mass, or density enough to cause this unknown gravitational field which would be strong enough to affect the anomalies which are being affected by such unknown gravitational field?

Yes, gravity keeps planets in their orbits. Gravity causes perturbations of these orbits. There are also some minor relativistic effects. One thing is certain, the "Electric Universe theory" cannot explain these things, correct?

Op. I had invoked this topic here www.abovetopsecret.com...
Your reasearch into this topic is commendable
Good thread

reply to post by Angelic Resurrection


Thanks for that. This information should be made readily available to anyone interested in the real subject about the brown dwarf and planet x in our Solar System.

I wanted to include some new information which has come out recently but has been posted by other members.

The following thread was started by Kozmo, so credit goes to him for finding this info.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

He links to a story by National geographics which discusses the facts found by yet another scientist which lead to the possible conclusion that there is at least another planet, 4 times bigger than Earth, in the fringes of the Solar System.

Here is part of the article.

...
Mystery Planet a Captured Rogue?

For the new work, Gomes analyzed the orbits of 92 Kuiper belt objects, then compared his results to computer models of how the bodies should be distributed, with and without an additional planet.

If there's no distant world, Gomes concludes, the models don't produce the highly elongated orbits we see for six of the objects.

How big exactly the planetary body might be isn't clear, but there are a lot of possibilities, Gomes added.

Based on his calculations, Gomes thinks a Neptune-size world, about four times bigger than Earth, orbiting 140 billion miles (225 billion kilometers) away from the sun—about 1,500 times farther than Earth—would do the trick.
...

news.nationalgeographic.com...

Originally posted by DJW001

So if this cloud of dust is masking very close infra-red bodies in out own solar system, why can we detect even fainter infra-red objects much further away? I think you need to work on your reading comprehension.

Thanks for the personal attack, perhaps I should respond with a similar personal attack?...

Instead of trying to insult you, like you tried to do with me, let me point you to this fact. Did the article, or I say that this interstellar cloud is surrounding the Solar System all 360 degrees?... No...the interstellar cloud is coming from ONE DIRECTION.

Those other objects which have been detected could simply be from other directions away from this interstellar cloud...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Based on his calculations, Gomes thinks a Neptune-size world, about four times bigger than Earth, orbiting 140 billion miles (225 billion kilometers) away from the sun—about 1,500 times farther than Earth—would do the trick.
...

Since when is Neptune a brown dwarf?

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

Based on his calculations, Gomes thinks a Neptune-size world, about four times bigger than Earth, orbiting 140 billion miles (225 billion kilometers) away from the sun—about 1,500 times farther than Earth—would do the trick.
...

Since when is Neptune a brown dwarf?

It's not, and the text doesn't say it is..

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by DJW001
That means that, like Jupiter, they reflect sunlight in the visible spectrum.

They do not, brown dwarfs are too cool to emit any light, and most can't be seen with regular telescopes, not even Hubble, that's why they can mostly be found in infrared spectrum.

You do know the difference between reflecting light and emitting light?.. By the way, the Hubble can see in near-infrared. There have been many infrared surveys of the universe by other space telescopes. They found the coldest known brown dwarfs many light years away from us, but didn't find one in or near the Solar System.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by DJW001
Granted, a companion brown dwarf is much more distant than Jupiter, but it would form a faint image on any photograph with a long enough exposure.

It would not, thats why they are looking in the infrared spetrum, and astronomers will need about 2 years or more to investigate the images taken by WISE.

A brown dwarf in the Solar System would reflect the Sun's light, however faintly. Also, there are lots of infrared telescopes, some of which are available to be used by amateur astronomers. WISE does have a potential to discover such a companion, but it's not the only source.

Stop deluding yourself (although with the username like ElectricUniverse, it's a vain appeal). Brown dwarfs aren't made of magically invisible material, they are balls of mostly hydrogen and helium (like Jupiter, btw.) and reflect visible light like any other normal matter. Infrared astronomy is required to spot them because they are normally light years away from us, so too dim in the visible light. If we flew close to a star system with a brown dwarf and a normal star, we would see the dwarf due to it reflecting the star's light. Also, many brown dwarfs are hot enough to glow red like lava.

Anyways, there is some new information regarding this topic. It seems that I was right that it would be another planet size in out Solar System, as well as a companion star.

Bellow is part of the information found by the Spanish Astronomers.

Two giant planets may cruise unseen beyond Pluto
17:30 11 June 2014 by Nicola Jenner
For similar stories, visit the Solar System Topic Guide

The monsters are multiplying. Just months after astronomers announced hints of a giant "Planet X" lurking beyond Pluto, a team in Spain says there may actually be two supersized planets hiding in the outer reaches of our solar system.

When potential dwarf planet 2012 VP113 was discovered in March, it joined a handful of unusual rocky objects known to reside beyond the orbit of Pluto. These small objects have curiously aligned orbits, which hints that an unseen planet even further out is influencing their behaviour. Scientists calculated that this world would be about 10 times the mass of Earth and would orbit at roughly 250 times Earth's distance from the sun.

Now Carlos and Raul de la Fuente Marcos at the Complutense University of Madrid in Spain have taken another look at these distant bodies. As well as confirming their bizarre orbital alignment, the pair found additional puzzling patterns. Small groups of the objects have very similar orbital paths. Because they are not massive enough to be tugging on each other, the researchers think the objects are being "shepherded" by a larger object in a pattern known as orbital resonance.
...

www.newscientist.com...-YHjlJ0zVj

Spanish Astronomers Discover Two New Planets in Solar System

Posted on June 17, 2014 by Deus Nexus

Are two giant planets lurking beyond Pluto? Unusual orbits spotted in the outer solar system hint at the presence of large worlds

Reposted from: Daily Mail UK
•The aligned orbits of rocky bodies around Pluto hints at an unseen planet
•Spanish scientists claim this world would be 10 times the mass of Earth
•They believe this planet is moving in resonance with a much larger world
•They calculated this world would have a mass between that of Mars and Saturn and would orbit 200 times Earth’s distance from the sun

Pluto has long been regarded as something of an anomaly in our solar system.

Compared to neighbouring worlds, the dwarf planet has an extremely tilted orbit which sometimes brings it closer to the sun than Neptune.

Now, astronomers in Spain believe it has yet another unusual feature – the world may be harbouring two supersized planet just out of reach of our telescopes.

According to a report by Nicola Jenner in New Scientist, researchers at the Complutense University of Madrid have found some strange patterns in the rocky objects around Pluto.

In March, researchers discovered a dwarf planet called 2012 VP113, along with up to 900 other objects, orbiting in a similar formation.

These small objects have aligned orbits.

On their own, their mass is not large enough to be pulling on each other, and so researchers in Madrid believe that are being pulled by another, much larger object.

Scientists believe this object would be a world 10 times the mass of Earth and would orbit at 250 times Earth’s distance from the sun.

And they think this planet is moving in resonance with a much larger world.

They calculated that this second world would have a mass between that of Mars and Saturn, and would orbit 200 times Earth’s distance from the sun.
...

deusnexus.wordpress.com...


There are several videos on this topic.



These new findings, which are still a theory, does shed light on this topic some other members and I have been talking about since around 2004.


I guess, we shall wait and see what they find.

Forgot to post the orbit diagram that is guesstimated for the outer solar system.



Will have to research more and see if there are any updates on this story.

Below is another diagram showing the overall area where this possible brown star and possible planet could be at.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

I am familiar with this hypothesis, which is based on a very small data set. The word "discovered" is premature. If they can collect more data and calculate where this planet is, it should be possible to confirm it visually. You have emphasized the most important point from the standpoint of this zombie thread, however: the hypothetical planet would have less mass than Saturn, therefore it would most certainly not be a Brown dwarf if it actually exists.

Edit to add: Why is the "Brown Dwarf" in the diagram you just added to your post not orbiting anything in particular?

It is possible that there are some yet undiscovered planets beyond Pluto. This possibility is acknowledged by the mainstream astronomers, and is nothing extraordinary or dramatic (although an actual discovery of such a planet would be news of the century). The author of this thread makes it sound like any such confirmation would be a personal victory for him (and the rest of the non-mainstream community), with the "I told you so" attitude. But it's nothing of the sort. A brown dwarf in the Solar System is out of the question, but the possibility of one or more trans-Neptunian planets exists and is accepted by the mainstream astronomers.

Astronomy works on observations and confirmation. Everything else is a hypothesis, a guess, a fanciful idea.

a reply to: DJW001

Astronomers are discovering more and more stellar objects the more advanced our technology is, so this continuous claim that "there can't be a brown dwarf because we would have discovered it by now" is patently false. More so when by observation we know that there are unexplained gravitational fields within the Solar System which imply such an object is within the Solar System.

...
The reason for this is totally unclear. One may speculate that an unknown gravitational field within the Solar system slightly redirects the incoming cosmic microwave radiation (in the similar way as a motion with a certain velocity with respect to the rest frame of the cosmological background redirects the cosmic background radiation and leads to modifications of the dipole and quadrupole parts). Such a redirection should be more pronounced for low–l components of the radiation. It should be possible to calculate the gravitational field needed for such a redirection and then to compare that with the observational data of the Solar system and the other observed anomalies.
...

arxiv.org...

So far we have been able to detect some Y-dwarfs which are as cool as the human body, but we also don't know if even cooler brown dwarfs could exist and which haven't been discovered yet, which is probable.

Discovered: Stars as Cool as the Human Body August 24, 2011: Scientists using data from NASA's Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer (WISE) have discovered six "Y dwarfs"-- star-like bodies with temperatures as cool as the human body.
...

science.nasa.gov...

As for the diagram showing an object orbiting around nothing, the center would be where the brown dwarf is located, if that's what is causing the gravitational field.

Again, I have posted the evidence from several sources which state there are large gravitational fields within the Solar System that we can't explain yet, and all the theories revolve around the fact that because we can observe the reaction of other stellar bodies to these unexplained gravitational fields there must be something that is generating these gravitational fields.

As ATS member Neovain stated

How about Kuiper belt objects? Unfortunately, anything that doesn't have its own internal heat source will be too cold for WISE to detect. The objects need to be 70 to 100 Kelvin to be detectable; even another Earth, if there was such a body in the Kuiper belt, would be a frigid 35 Kelvin, too cold to spot.

Source

Even a Y-brown dwarf similar to those that have been discovered could exist within the Solar System yet it hasn't been found just like we haven't been able to detect "all y-brown stars", only a few have been discovered.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Astronomers are discovering more and more stellar objects the more advanced our technology is, so this continuous claim that "there can't be a brown dwarf because we would have discovered it by now" is patently false. More so when by observation we know that there are unexplained gravitational fields within the Solar System which imply such an object is within the Solar System.

Yes, we are discovering more and more very faint objects outside of the Solar System, as well as smaller and smaller objects within the Solar System. You have essentially been arguing that because we can see elephants in the zoo down the road through our binoculars, there might be an elephant right here in our living room.

I have not had time to read the paper you linked to, but I note that it was published in 2008, before the Pioneer Anomaly was understood.

a reply to: wildespace

I have never claimed credit for these discoveries... However, for many years some members and myself have been pointing out that these strange anomalies all seem to indicate these gravitational fields are being generated by stellar objects which we haven't detected yet. Meanwhile other members have made claims for years that not even another planet could exist within the Solar System because "we would have detected them.

I do know that astronomy works on observation, and confirmation. But guess what?... Observation is telling us that there are gravitational fields within the Solar System causing many anomalies, and there must be something with a mass large enough to be the cause of these anomalies.

It's ironic how on the one hand you try to make ad hominem attacks at me and claim that the "OP is reaching conclusions which aren't true" and on the other hand you make bold statement not based on facts about "a brown dwarf in the Solar System is out of the question."

...
Do brown dwarfs, hitherto undetected, surround us in large numbers? We certainly cant rule out the possibility, and we can expect much more data mining from the riches WISE has accumulated. And yes, the case for a brown dwarf closer than the Alpha Centauri stars is still open, making the brown dwarf hunt of unusual interest for identifying potential targets for future probes.
...

news.discovery.com...

Other planets existing within the Solar System with very elongated orbits imply that they are orbiting another large stellar object with a gravitational pull strong enough that our Sun cannot capture such planetoids entirely. This would explain the elongated orbits of planetoids like Sedna.