Monsanto's Dirty Little Secret: Anniston, Alabama

reply to post by Gorman91


(see post above)

Man, You really don’t seem to have a good sense of how things are.

I don't think you do. You are describing the old anonymous of several years ago. Anonymous constantly changes and has no definition but to tear down what is.

Not exactly… I do believe They are out to tear down the corrupt institutions. Not just anything that is. I bet They don’t monkey with homeless shelters…

Except… Lack of motive, social pariahhood, open source, encouragement of the Betterment Ethic… Yeah, except for those small things, what I propose has nothing.

None of this has any guarantee to change anything.

Of course it’s not a guarantee. Geez. But if done right – widespread discussion and awareness of the seed, the addition of plenum energy (and antigravity, though AG is not a requirement), and an encouragement of the Betterment Ethic, as People are relieved of the economic strife, Their outlook and attitude will improve, in turn improving Their behavior towards Those around Them.

And frankly… Removing motivation alone DOES guarantee a change.

Hatred is learned. Stop teaching it and it will dissipate.

Hatred is learned. But often by the self, and not by any one specifically teaching it. Just go to your local school yard. Children aren't born with preference to any emotion but fear and happiness. From that, all other emotions come about naturally, without any sort of teaching. We can teach hate. But it can also manifest itself from a location without any hate.

Agreed. But those who teach Themselves hatred are statistically nonexistent. Virtually all children learn these behaviors from the adults around Them.

As adults find They need not fear Theirs will be taken by someone else, as They may have what They want, the fear (which helps breed hate) will dissipate, and hatred will drop in the world.

No, You can’t solve the problem of the few who teach hate to Themselves. But You can remove the prime cause: the fear of loss. That removes 90% at least of the problem. But it’s not 100%, so it’s not as good as the scarcity setup We have now. Right?

I can’t stop that. I can only give options for the recipients – like leave. Ignore. Talk about behind backs. Whatever. And eliminate the motivation for the vast majority of meanness I see.

Jesus had the same idea. People still murdered 20 million native Americans in his name.

Huh??? Jesus had the idea to release plenum energy, removing the need for money, and having all work no One wants to do be done by robots, freeing Humanity from slavery (wage or otherwise)? He had the idea that any Human could pick up and move as They pleased – away from those They don’t like – because that option would be always available?

How do You see giving personal power of movement, acquisition and ownership equating in any way with Jesus’s ideas?

Again, I am thinking You are lacking clarity of though – or at least the ability to express it intelligibly. I might point out, however, a “leader” who wanted to go slaughter Others would be hard pressed to find Others to go with Hume to break a Law when that “leader” has nothing but ideology to offer.

Tell that to Hitler, Pot, Lenin, Mao, McCarthy, and today many modern leaders. All you need is ideology and people will follow you.

None of which rallied People without money/power/energy control. And no… Ideology may be good for starting discussions, but without a personal advantage, it’s really difficult to get People to drop the thing(s) They love doing to actually do something violent against Others who are no longer a threat. In ALL of Your examples, the “leaders” had rewards set up. “Do as I say and I’ll give You double rations! Do as I say and I’ll give You a place for Your family to live. Do as I say and I will pay You well.”

In abundance, those sorts of things will NOT motivate Others. “Yeah, You’ll give Me things I can get anyway. I think I’ll go fishing instead.”

As it stands today, People follow “leaders” because They provide a meal, pay Them, force Them, and because They have no other options. In a world where We all can have what We want, why would We go stomp on Others?

That's what you think. I have food money and force in my own right. I don't need that from government. I follow leaders that I do because I believe they will exterminate the bad eggs in society. I don't know if I'm some sort of national socialist or anarchist at this point. I'll admit it though. I shed no tear to the genocide of the rich and popular whom seek to demote different groups of humanity for their own gain.

(see post below)

reply to post by Gorman91


(see posts above)


Um… The government is responsible for ensuring You have money to use… So You do need that from Them.

“Exterminate?” Bad eggs? Like killing Them with no trial? Who defines “bad egg?” Wow. That rings of sociopathy. Personally, I would rather remove Their power over others by adding the energy that money/power represents.

And given You are tending towards anarchism, I am surprised You find My ideas distasteful. Chaotic governance is anarchy, allowing input by everyOne. There are no “leaders” except of the moment. A problem arises and someone will rise to the leadership role in solving it. Once solved, there is no “leader.”

A science I think You might do well in studying is that of emergence. It is related to society and behaviors, and chaos.

Basically, if you demote your fellow man's humanity, in my eyes, you are no longer human, but an animal. And your death is irregardless to me.

By freeing every Human to spend Their life as They choose? Yeah, that’s a demotion. They’re much higher now, starving to death, being killed in wars instigated to make the war suppliers money, enslaved to the system in jobs They hate, eating frankenfood. Much more noble a place now than in a world where They can do as They please within three Laws, be creative, find cures and not have them hidden so some corporation can make money off patentable “treatments,” study what They want, go where They want, eat what They want, and offer what They have in music, research, math, science, art, and problem-solving.

And the three Laws, and a lack of motivation, and socially earned pariahhood… Do go on…

Laws can be broken. Those assigned to punish can be bribed or be go with favoritism. Mobs that promote the laws can be organized to pull them down.

Of COURSE Laws can be broken. We wouldn’t put them in place if none could break them. As I stated above, Laws work because MOST people DO follow them. But… In a world where We all can have what We want, what would You bribe someone with?

And sure, mobs can occur. But they are far less likely in a comfortable world than in one filled with the evil wrought by the love of money. Mobs are never made of the complacent.

Simply put, I can manipulate what you put up and bring it down.

Um… Ok. But why and how?

What would You do to take this “system” down?

Probably what I've done in the past with friends. Couple years ago I helped organized a social experiment locating precise social weak points and philosophies such as 6 degrees of connection. Starting with just me, but slowly building up a team of about 20 people working for no other reason than for our own "lulz", we managed to cause a sudden cascade of mindset. The topic was abortion. See back then I was an atheist, and interested in testing the viability of a godless defense of pro life philosophy. We managed to make a sudden ~10% change in pro life vs pro choice.

Well that’s all lovely and stuff, but I asked not for a vague answer (“what I've done in the past with friends”) which gives Me nothing, but for a good outline of Your plan of attack. What, specifically would You be doing to “take down” the world as I propose?

And more to the point, I ask now: WHY?

Here's gallup polls from the time shortly after we did the experiment.

www.gallup.com...

See the second graph? See around 2008? I helped do that.

Granted, it's not much. But we weren't even that committed.

I’ll take Your word for it.

See when you begin to observe the human condition as much as we have, you know how to manipulate it for different purposes.

I suggest you watch BBC's Sherlock. Deals with it a great deal. Quite amazing how small pushes can topple entire ideologies.

We're thinking of doing yet another experiment soon.

And Your study of “the Human condition…” Did it include plenum energy and antigravity? Did You take a look at what Humans can accomplish when freed of the necessity to expend Their energy to profit Others? Did You look at what it would be like without the profit motive for instigating war?

I will bet You examined how Humans behave in scarcity with the root of all evil ever tempting Humans to behave poorly.

You might be interested in seeing how Humanity behaves when money/trade/etc. is no longer available, as in a disaster. People help One Another. People give where giving is needed. Read A Paradise Built in Hell by Rebecca Solnit. The beauty of Humanity as a whole can be seen.

reply to post by Amaterasu

Yes. Yes there are some. But by far the greatest cause of bad behavior is money/power/energy scarcity. No, We cannot eliminate these issues. No system will “get… rid of them.” And I am not seeking to solve all problems. I am seeking to MINIMISE them. My proposal would offer a world in which We see far fewer problems. If You eschew a solution because, though it radically reduces problems, it does not eliminate them… Heh. What can I say?

What you don't realize is the unfortunate reality that there is a statistical distribution of these things. In other words, you cannot create a system that minimizes it beyond what other systems already have. Everything from dictatorship to Roman Republic has tried it. They always get the same results. The government you have does not control the number of people who will take advantage of it. It merely provides the best means to protect the best number of people.

Thus, no government you can fathom will get rid of bad people. They will always be there. Statisitically at the same level they are now, and always have been in every government.

Fact is, when you shoot/arrest/indoctrinate/etc one, another takes their place. It's simple statistics. Every government has a niche for the wise guy taking advantage of it. And yours, by far, has the largest number.

Pleasing people by giving into their wants is not going to solve it. In fact, it's going to make them incredibly content and apathetic and increase the number.

Yes. Yes, there will always be issues. BUT… With the removal of the money/power/energy scarcity, these problems will be greatly reduced. You make it sound as if it’s better to stick with this system We’re drowning in than work towards a better (if not perfect) way of doing things.

Because nothing you've said shows me how it will be different. Communists, republicans, democrats, fascists, and so many others have sold the same re-branded bundle of sticks. And All I get is the same results: they all fall down.

That’s what I like about You, Gor… You make statements like this with nothing to back them up. “Classicsm…” (I think You meant “classicism.”) How is what I offered “classicism,” and why is it “bad?”

Well I'd hope you'd have the sense to see how.

You just said that your society will more or less make them the unwanted. This is creating class. Once you have an underclass, an over class takes advantage of them. I don't honestly care what your precious rules say. We have rules today too. People still ignore them

Mobs do not form unless there is unrest.

untrue. Mobs tend to form when there is unrest. But mobs can form virtually out of no where for no reason. Be it a bunch of angry drunks, or a sudden murder by an insane person. Hell I've seen mobs form on black Friday for no other reason than greed. And no, this is not scarcity or whatever silliness you're going to bring up. Because Black Friday would still exist as a ritual in your system too. And mobs would still form.

Again. No system will eliminate poor behavior. But a system of oppression is a poor choice as more problems will arise than in a free society.

Your system is a system of oppression. You just said that there are unfavorable people based off their behavior.

Not “reality.” Scarcity. In a world where evil grows – in the soil of money the love of it runs rampant – such behavior is expected in much greater quantity than in an abundant society. You are looking at how Humans behave under the yoke of a money and deciding that that behavior is caused by nothing more than random Human behavior. But the fact is that a great deal of the cause – statistically all of it – has to do with scarcity and the unrest that creates.

Then why do I hate, and indeed want to kill, the WBC? Not for money. Not for power. Not for anything. I just don't like them.

All a depiction of happenings in scarcity.

No. Because I still have desires to kill people whom are not respecting their fellow man. I am sane, so I can deny it. Others are weak. They will act.

Nothing examines how Humans function in abundance

Sure. There are people in abundance today. Most of them are dicks.

No. It was far more that merely fiction. It was a study in social behavior in the advent of abundance.

By a sci fi writer. Not an expert.

Sure, there were still problems, but far fewer and of less crucial nature than We have today. Humans do better when Their needs are readily met, and Their desires are mostly met as well.

You know, even in star trek they experimented with what happens when their system comes crashing down. Ever watch deep space 9 and the later era of NG? Starfleet had practically become a military organization bent on control of the mind.

reply to post by Amaterasu


...

You are awfully stuck on preventing problems. If all problems are not fully gone, it cannot work (as if Our system is not rife with problems). I do not claim any Law will STOP behavior. But Let’s face it, People follow Laws in general. If, in general, We did NOT follow Laws, rules, edicts, codes, acts, statutes, mandates, etc. We would have no society at all.

And this is why you are not living in reality.

There are plenty of places not obeying the law. And furthermore, the law can be wrong. New York City has entire places more or less under the oppressive rule of local gangsters. Same with the west coast.

The legitimacy of any government can rise and fall in sudden events. Your government is something that can be compared to a drug high. It has great legitimacy until something goes wrong. And things will go wrong.

I learned very early in my life to have no plans. Because when you make plans and stick by them, things go wrong and your plan is useless. Rather, I decided to become adaptive. To never plan ahead and to simply be prepared. Best decision ever. I have no care for people who plan. I'll take the opinion of the joker.

My mother could have benefited from the use of cannabis for the glaucoma She had. She chose to go blind rather than break the “law.” So the Laws will hold most in check. We surely will see no MORE in the way of poor choices than We do now – and in fact would see a radical drop in the problems We have. But a 90% reduction in problems isn’t good enough, I suppose. It has to be 100% or forget it, eh?

No offense, but your mother was stupid. This is why I am better than you on this argument. I was raised to view laws as advice, not codes. Many were. In fact, my entire generation has been.

That is about a vague a reply I have ever encountered. The “few.” Ok. Who? The boogieman and his family? How will this “domination” manifest? And how can a few dominate the many with no power over anyone but Themselves (whom They have complete control of)?

How can I be specific with such a generalized system as yours? There is nothing in your system preventing a man like me from getting a following and taking power by offering better technology from others. Or better still, promising land or protection for those who invent.

There's quite literally thousands of methods I could take over your system by. Because most people won't stop me, and they'll be busy enjoying life.

In times of plenty, a dictator deals with a lot fewer people. You only really need to influence the main minds of the world. Because the people will just simply follow that golden arrow of consumption irregardless to who is providing it.

Your system enhances the golden arrow of consumption. It is a full embrace of Lebow economics. It will lead to the domestication of man and the creation of a mental class of rulers.

Um, yeah, but with the ability to have children only when wanted, with the ability to do more than watch TV and have sex as entertainment (the condition of the poor), population growth will drop.

In secular western values.

(It has been shown that middle class and rich families tend to be small – 0-3 kids – whereas poor People often have 4, 5, 6… They have no birth control, or They can get a bigger check from the government, or They are raped, or They have no education to know better… With richness flowing to all Humans, access to education, birth control, and with checks gone as a motivation, the birth rate will indeed drop.

In secular western values.

And to fill the air space from 100 ft to 5000 feet with humans too close for comfort, I am betting Our population would have to increase 50,000 times. Likely more. Really, though They say it’s a small world…really, this is a HUGE planet and statistically speaking, We don’t exist. Can You grasp the meaning and magnitude of that statement? Statistically speaking, Humans do not exist on this planet.

Tell that to the countless environmental destruction and excessive pollution of the air and soils and release of radioactive particles that have been shown to be accelerating the decay of structures.

This statement of yours more or less proves you're living in a dream world.

Yes. People shoot others. But it is nearly always over money/power/energy.

And hate. I know a few people who would shoot you for your last statement, lovely environmental dictators they.

Not over One taking over the abode of another.

*COUGH* Grece *COUGH*

And with all the sky, who’s going to fight?

Don't know. Don't mean they won't.

reply to post by Amaterasu

“I’m going to boot You out of that space! I could go anywhere else – a mile north, for example – but I want that place 600’at X lat. and Y long. above that lake, and I’m going to take it from you!” BOOM! REALLY don’t see that as being an issue.

Israel
Eastern Europe (too many to remember)
Germany
Japan
North Korea
China
Apparently the US government for the moon" www.thehindu.com...
And many others.

Also all the people living bellow that would like their skyline unobstructed.

Humans might argue about ideology, and the best solutions, but with no land connection, arguing about a 500 cu. ft. space somewhere in Our atmosphere is not going to happen. Adjacent 500 cu. ft. spaces will do just fine. (500 cu. ft. should be plenty to contain one house and the Humans who live there).

Except for the people bellow.

Also Christians, Muslims, And a couple million militant atheists.

And with 4.2 billion cubic kilometers to work with (see wiki.answers.com...'s_atmosphere ), I think We can safely say We would have plenty of room for everyOne.

Unless you're unwanted like the aforementioned.

Not exactly… I do believe They are out to tear down the corrupt institutions. Not just anything that is. I bet They don’t monkey with homeless shelters…

Not unless they say bad things about Anon.

Of course it’s not a guarantee. Geez. But if done right – widespread discussion and awareness of the seed, the addition of plenum energy (and antigravity, though AG is not a requirement), and an encouragement of the Betterment Ethic, as People are relieved of the economic strife, Their outlook and attitude will improve, in turn improving Their behavior towards Those around Them. And frankly… Removing motivation alone DOES guarantee a change.

Remove motivation? Please do. I am motivated by my own goals. Not what society tells me. If everyone has no motivation, and I and my friends do, then we will rule the world through our fruits that we bear.

Agreed. But those who teach Themselves hatred are statistically nonexistent. Virtually all children learn these behaviors from the adults around Them.

Took one man to kill a couple hundred million people in Germany about half a century ago. He statistically didn't exist. Those that died, did.

As adults find They need not fear Theirs will be taken by someone else, as They may have what They want, the fear (which helps breed hate) will dissipate, and hatred will drop in the world.

I have no fear. I still hate.

No, You can’t solve the problem of the few who teach hate to Themselves. But You can remove the prime cause: the fear of loss. That removes 90% at least of the problem. But it’s not 100%, so it’s not as good as the scarcity setup We have now. Right?

People fear for all sorts of dumb reasons. Just take a look at this forum. There are some people who are afraid aliens are coming to kill them.

You cannot remove fear. People find things to fear. We once feared animals. Then we got guns. We still fear animals.

Huh??? Jesus had the idea to release plenum energy, removing the need for money, and having all work no One wants to do be done by robots, freeing Humanity from slavery (wage or otherwise)? He had the idea that any Human could pick up and move as They pleased – away from those They don’t like – because that option would be always available?

Yes he did. In fact is said to do those very things. He preached it. And those that came after preached it. In the book of Acts, the community of believers lived without money and were basically communists, using money to deal with the outside world, not the internal one.

None of which rallied People without money/power/energy control.

Hitler promised independence. He essentially promised what you are promising. Look what he did.

In ALL of Your examples, the “leaders” had rewards set up

There is a set molecular number of things on this planet. And nothing your system has will change this. There is not infinite goods. And people will demand more and more until there is nothing left. Like it or not.

Want to go to space to get more? Then people will leave, and then there's nothing stopping them from returning and burning the planet.

There's really no point reading on. I've left several dozen holes in your thoughts. Go ahead and keep repeating the same old "abundance will stop it" crap. You won't listen to reality, so I'll be happily ready to reply, because like I said, I have hatred. And I will stop your system. So here, I'm a prime example of hatred for no reason. Deal with it. I will not deal with your system.

reply to post by Amaterasu

And Your study of “the Human condition…” Did it include plenum energy and antigravity? Did You take a look at what Humans can accomplish when freed of the necessity to expend Their energy to profit Others? Did You look at what it would be like without the profit motive for instigating war? I will bet You examined how Humans behave in scarcity with the root of all evil ever tempting Humans to behave poorly. You might be interested in seeing how Humanity behaves when money/trade/etc. is no longer available, as in a disaster. People help One Another. People give where giving is needed. Read A Paradise Built in Hell by Rebecca Solnit. The beauty of Humanity as a whole can be seen.

Yes actually

We concluded humanity would become a virus, expanding into the stars for that ever more desire for more. And your system will run out of resources here on Earth. And once people are free to leave... Well actually they made a video game about just that event.

Earth did what you wanted. And was great...until Earth's colony wanted something else. And Earth got angry. And one side shot first.

Space has infinite power, infinite resources, and is by default abundance. People fought for hatred. Not resources. Scarcity was gone. They just wanted the group they hated gone with it.

Hate. Nothing more. Nothing less. The hatred of another for nothing than personal reasons.

I have this hatred for your system.

This type of hatred cannot be defined for reason. It is best described, simply, as blood rage. Anger just for the way something is. Not for any other reason. The fact it exists is reason enough to hate it, and desire its destruction. Power doesn't matter. Resources don't matter. It's the fact that the system exists. As it is. It is not definable for a reason for. It is the desire to simply end all things, because they are that way.