Challenge to Atheists!

reply to post by Honor93


Well actually they found the Ark (well some of it) where as Atlantis remains undiscovered..
www.noahsark-naxuan.com/1.htm

reply to post by Adurna

BS ... read your link ... no find, no score, no historical impact whatsoever.
an unidentified surface depression could be anything and coincidence doesn't make it fact.
the two mountains between the two countries, look Nothing alike. i grew up in the Appalachians, mountains are rather specific and these two are quite different.

if you have a link to anything (material) found that identifies the location as an absolute archeological discovery, please share as i would be quite interested but this presentation of presumption doesn't even come close ... it resembles religious propaganda but not much more.

as a side note: you do realize many ppl (although i'm not necessarily one of 'em) believe the Knights Templar are fictional characters born of a need for secrecy and cover, right?

since the KTs have never been proven to exist, i must say you sure do put a lot of faith in the imaginary realm of existence.

Oh and btw, after reading this from your post to another, we really aren't discussing anything, you'll believe what you believe and the same goes for the rest of us.

we don't worship the Prophets. They are examples to us, because they are perfect human beings with perfect moral character

if you truly believe that the Islamic pedophile prophet is a "perfect human being with perfect moral character" ~~ we shall Never agree.
Be well, be safe and thanks for convo. have a good day

reply to post by The GUT

To consider that our consciousness and ability for abstract thought culminates in our "awareness" and yet the complexity of the universe--to them--seems to be, then, a mechanical process that possesses no such awareness...truly doesn't compute.

Let's not forget that it culminates rocks, black holes and explosions, it also cares not if it destroys our awareness in the process. The universe, or reality, as a whole, MAY be a consciouss being as you suggest; but benevolent? I'm not sure....

Why do you assume that something that we can't understand (yet) must be "aware"?

Pantheism is simply a labelling game, the universe is "GOD". Everytime we learn something new, we expand the power of "GOD", it's simply "God of the Gaps".

Few of my thoughts, no offense to anyone intended.

Originally posted by NeverForget
reply to post by The GUT

 

Let's not forget that it culminates rocks, black holes and explosions, it also cares not if it destroys our awareness in the process. The universe, or reality, as a whole, MAY be a consciouss being as you suggest; but benevolent? I'm not sure....

Why do you assume that something that we can't understand (yet) must be "aware"?

Well by your own argument in the sentence directly above, you really can't use the word "culminates" unless you mean generally as far as science knows.

The reason that I believe that the 'a consciousness greater than ours' thesis makes more sense in this question is because of a rather scientific concept: We have a 'model' in our own consciousness and thusly the beginnings of a thesis for further extrapolation.

Pantheism is simply a labelling game, the universe is "GOD". Everytime we learn something new, we expand the power of "GOD", it's simply "God of the Gaps".

I don't suggest the universe has a consciousness, I just didn't want religion to interfere with an excellent exercise in deduction.

Besides, to me, Pantheism is a label, among others, used by those that don't understand that many folk come to the conclusion of God by a careful examination of a lot of things: Philosophies, science, and by personal observation. Not because somebody said so or because we lack the ability to think it through. Quite the opposite.

Science is useful, but it truly has no answers about our consciousness. We've gone farther in space--and not very far indeed in the overall scheme of things--than we have into our consciousness.

Few of my thoughts, no offense to anyone intended.

No offense taken by me, I understand the progression and used to think the same way. Not insisting I'm right today, but just noting that I began from the same valid thesis and found it lead me to more. Peace.

reply to post by bogomil


Well I guess you are a real Rocket Scientist although your reading comprehension lacks . The event will be instantaneous . Like man before you can drop dude .A solar flare would not be fast . Maybe it's DR. Evils ray gun dude . Go play!

reply to post by Adurna


Addura you were not born Muslim . You were born into a sinful world . If you were born to Christian parents you would likely have given your life to Jesus . You were probably made Muslim .The other seed of Abraham the Arabs will be betrayed when they come against Israel . They will also be Nuked as will Damascus . I know about your version of the Antichrist called Dajjal and your Quran is a take off of the Talmud that came before it or haven't you realised it . Christianity should never be called Catholism and the Christian faith came from Jesus and the scrolls not the Vatican .

reply to post by The GUT

Well by your own argument in the sentence directly above, you really can't use the word "culminates" unless you mean generally as far as science knows.

The key phrase being "as far as science knows". I don't know how "something" comes from "nothing". I don't know if the cosmos is infinite.

Perhaps abiogenesis has the answers to cosmic evolution and progression, a mathematical code which explains how simple contructs can develop into complex forms. I don't know, but what I refuse to do is to assume. Certainly, i'll entertain. I'm not assuming the mathematical code (grand unified field theory) has a creator, or a source, but i'll entertain possibility, even that reality itself is truly infinite and has no consciousness as a whole.

The reason that I believe that the 'a consciousness greater than ours' thesis makes more sense in this question is because of a rather scientific concept: We have a 'model' in our own consciousness and thusly the beginnings of a thesis for further extrapolation.

Well i'd certainly like to entertain that hypothesis in depth.

Besides, to me, Pantheism is a label, among others, used by those that don't understand that many folk come to the conclusion of God by a careful examination of a lot of things: Philosophies, science, and by personal observation. Not because somebody said so or because we lack the ability to think it through. Quite the opposite.

Pantheism, along other "Labels" simply act as a reference point (in debate) for a person's position in regards to beliefs surrounding a deity, deities (or lack thereof)

And equal "careful examination" can be used to arrive at atheism, deism too. Granted, the same rational logic does not apply equally amongst all positions (Dystheism? Lol)

Science is useful, but it truly has no answers about our consciousness.[YET!] We've gone farther in space--and not very far indeed in the overall scheme of things--than we have into our consciousness.

Science is a great tool in order to probe and understand the universe, Science doesn't claim to have the answers, (GOOD) scientists are generally humble, understanding what they DON'T know.

No offense taken by me, I understand the progression and used to think the same way. Not insisting I'm right today, but just noting that I began from the same valid thesis and found it lead me to more. Peace

Thanks, pleasant exchange. I think i can say the same for myself, but the opposite route, like you, I'm not insisting i'm right either. Just that I don't know, and I don't believe a theory until someone gives me a cogent reason that warrants belief.

Originally posted by NeverForget
The key phrase being "as far as science knows". I don't know how "something" comes from "nothing". I don't know if the cosmos is infinite.

Let's not abandon our ability to reason about the world we know through our every day experiences. The same rational thinking that brought us science gave us the fundamental understanding that something cannot come from nothing. If you believe something can come from nothing then believing in the flying spaghetti monster is the milder of the two beliefs. We understand something cannot come from nothing. The origin has to be an eternal element that is absolutely self-sustaining regardless of whether the physical Universe is finite or not.

reply to post by SimonPeter



There's nothing wrong with Bogomil's or my reading comprehension thank you.What I was merely stating that what you perceive to be true by the bible, is just your interpretation and nothing more.
Yes maybe a solar flare would not be instantaneous and a good representation of your theory, but what about 'said' meteorite? or spontaneous combustion?.... Interesting how you picked the only flaw in my previous post, then missed out the others...

Give up on your comic book bible mate, one day (for your sake) I hope you realise that you are have been brainwashed and therefore are deluded..

Jog on.

reply to post by underspace

Let's not abandon our ability to reason about the world we know through our every day experiences. The same rational thinking that brought us science gave us the fundamental understanding that something cannot come from nothing

Of course, thermodynamic laws are observed in the physical realm which we are experiencing , but you have to look beyond that, at the cosmos, the underlying mechanics of reality; is it a hologram, is it infinite, is it a box etc.

And a nice thought is that we are all made of stardust, a star had to die in order for us to arrive, Again, this is thinking within what we can see and understand by observing in our physical realm. But you can't say something can't come from nothing when you don't no the causality of the universe or reality (or if there is any).

If you believe something can come from nothing then believing in the flying spaghetti monster is the milder of the two beliefs. We understand something cannot come from nothing. The origin has to be an eternal element that is absolutely self-sustaining regardless of whether the physical Universe is finite or not.

Well....scientists do discuss metaphysical theories such as "multiverse" theorem, Hypothetically speaking, everything is possible. And of course within the boundaries (if any) of our universe; everything might seem possible, but not everything is probable.

Originally posted by NeverForget

Of course, thermodynamic laws are observed in the physical realm which we are experiencing , but you have to look beyond that, at the cosmos, the underlying mechanics of reality; is it a hologram, is it infinite, is it a box etc.

If it's a hologram, what's the source. If it's infinite, is it infinite because of an endless cycle of big bangs to big crunches or due to infinite multiverses. I am not questioning that, science will helps us understand that. I am talking about a more basic, yet equally important, fundamental metaphysical understanding.

But you can't say something can't come from nothing when you don't no the causality of the universe or reality (or if there is any).

Like I said, we would be abandoning everything it means to be a conscious human being in the Universe to make the assertion that something can come from nothing.

Hypothetically speaking, everything is possible. And of course within the boundaries (if any) of our universe; everything might seem possible, but not everything is probable.

Your reasoning honestly brings you to the opinion that 'something coming from nothing' is probable then? I am saying the entirety of our human experience supports the idea that 'something coming from nothing' is not improbable but impossible.

Two possibilities:

1) Out of infinite nothingness void of any thing at all, came something.

2) Reality always existed.

Eternity is a magical mind-boggling concept barely manageable to my mind, but it doesn't violate what my Human experience tells me is a Law; something cannot come from nothing.

I think it's logical to conclude reality is eternal, un-created and timeless. And illogical to assume otherwise. I am not suggesting the Universe is finite or infinite, but the underlying reality that sustains existence is and always was.

And some call that God.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


It just means you dont know who He really is. I ask you a few questions and see if you get these right.

Who made the Universe?

Who made Messiah, the Son of the Father?

Who created Sin?

Who created the Devil, Satan and evil?

Who made Hell, and the lake of fire?

Who is casting the wicked into the lake of fire for eternal punishment?

I know who our Creator is, and the image that the Christian church has created of Him is false. Go read the Scriptures, and see for yourself.

Originally posted by Seektruthalways1

I know who our Creator is, and the image that the Christian church has created of Him is false. Go read the Scriptures, and see for yourself.

Erm...

So the image the scriptures speak of is false, but to discover the true image you should read the scriptures?

Well.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by bogomil

 

Well I guess you are a real Rocket Scientist although your reading comprehension lacks . The event will be instantaneous . Like man before you can drop dude .A solar flare would not be fast . Maybe it's DR. Evils ray gun dude . Go play!

Please, once more and with details, references and/or quotes, so I can understand, what you relate to.

Your subjective evaluation of my comprehension-capacity is completely irrelevant in a factual context.

Originally posted by underspace

Originally posted by NeverForget
The key phrase being "as far as science knows". I don't know how "something" comes from "nothing". I don't know if the cosmos is infinite.

Let's not abandon our ability to reason about the world we know through our every day experiences. The same rational thinking that brought us science gave us the fundamental understanding that something cannot come from nothing. If you believe something can come from nothing then believing in the flying spaghetti monster is the milder of the two beliefs. We understand something cannot come from nothing. The origin has to be an eternal element that is absolutely self-sustaining regardless of whether the physical Universe is finite or not.

edit on 24-8-2011 by underspace because: (no reason given)

That is a very gross simplification of both the perspectives used for examining 'something from nothing' (science, philosophy, theology) and the resulting 'answers'.

Quote: ["The same rational thinking that brought us science gave us the fundamental understanding that something cannot come from nothing."]

Nope, you refer to 'science' as you believe science to be, not as it is.

Quote: ["If you believe something can come from nothing then believing in the flying spaghetti monster is the milder of the two beliefs."]

Pastafarianism is a parody of circle-argumentation methodology, and is as 'valid' as any other religion in that sense.

Quote: ["We understand something cannot come from nothing."]

Who are 'we'?

Quote: ["The origin has to be an eternal element that is absolutely self-sustaining regardless of whether the physical Universe is finite or not."]

Why? And what?

Originally posted by underspace

Originally posted by Seektruthalways1

I know who our Creator is, and the image that the Christian church has created of Him is false. Go read the Scriptures, and see for yourself.

Erm...

So the image the scriptures speak of is false, but to discover the true image you should read the scriptures?

Well.

awe, come on now you were doing so good ... he said "the Christian Church" promote a false image, not the scriptures (although those weren't exactly specified either and several exist but back to the point) - the purveyor of falsehood IS the church (imho, ALL of them) ... the church isn't necessary for your spirit to flourish, if you prefer to keep it as a crutch, so be it ... just freely accept it and tolerate the opinions of others.

dialogue is great but deception doesn't belong.
and surprisingly, if You read the scriptures rather be read/lectured to, often, tidbits of wisdom shine through that otherwise go un-noticed. It's kinda resembles the no effort, no reward system.

some ppl learn because they 'have to', successful ppl learn because they 'want to'.
cheers for your effort, now follow-through

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

What you and the atheist bogomil keep forgetting is, even if we can't prove the existence of God, not a one of you can DISPROVE Him either.

No ones forgetting anything mateyboy

This is a stalemate that will go on and on and on and on and on until the very end.

Hardly a stalemate my friend when we can now observe that not only are we able to live prosperous and happy lives without an invincible man who lives in the sky (be it yours or anyone elses,) but there is no requirement of a god for our universe to operate as it does.

Personally i choose to believe in Christ. You can go to wherever the hell you want to go, but as for me? I choose to be with God, and again not a one of you can prove that he doesnt exist so until you can, kick back and relax and have a tall glass of STFU..

As ever the same old xtian BS statement regurgitated over and over, and as ever the usual response - On the ignorant and deluded set out to try and prove a negative.

Believe what you want my friend I will defend your right to do this as much as I would for me, buuuuuuut don't demand people respect your belief and don't try and shove it down my throat.

To use a phrase coined by your lord jesus "pray in your closet" the rest of us don't want to hear it thank you very much.

reply to post by SimonPeter

Christianity should never be called Catholism and the Christian faith came from Jesus

Which jesus would that be then ?

reply to post by Osvaldo


You are not a student of physics are you ? The spontaneous combustion you speak of is a slow process . The Meteorite is a crushing explosive situation a bomb is a limited coverage device . But you don't care , you will not check it out you don't want to know, you just want in desparation to be right . You will live on in your own deception .

reply to post by Christian Jihad


There is only one Son of God . That will never change no matter what the new progressive styles come about . No matter what alternative lifestyles come along . No matter that laws change or public opinion against Good and Holy , God or Jesus , right and wrong . They have torn down Christianity in our education systems as an unproven fallacy and the same people gorge themselves on unproven scientific study as fact . Even after the theory was proven wrong . Now the hero wears black .People mutilate themselves with Tatoos and pearcings . That would probably be you wouldn't it .