The 2 witnesses of the Tribulation

reply to post by SuperiorEd

No lies here. You need to read Romans 11 in full. Here is the part that speaks to your confusion in this post:

Jesus was the fulfilment of the bits of prophecy Paul was quoting.
Jesus said he was the fulfilment of the prophecies.
Jesus made a point of it that he was there first for the lost sheep of Israel.
I am not confused but it seems some people have an agenda and it distorts any kind of interpretation they try to make of prophecy because they want everything to point to modern Israel being the fulfilment instead of Jesus.
Great, when you die and go to judgement see how much that country is going to do for you. I choose Jesus to be my advocate and representative.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

No lies here. You need to read Romans 11 in full. Here is the part that speaks to your confusion in this post:

Jesus was the fulfilment of the bits of prophecy Paul was quoting.
Jesus said he was the fulfilment of the prophecies.
Jesus made a point of it that he was there first for the lost sheep of Israel.
I am not confused but it seems some people have an agenda and it distorts any kind of interpretation they try to make of prophecy because they want everything to point to modern Israel being the fulfilment instead of Jesus.
Great, when you die and go to judgement see how much that country is going to do for you. I choose Jesus to be my advocate and representative.

edit on 17-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Jesus is (not was) the fulfillment of the law (not prophecy as such). He was the messiah of all prophecy and the fulfillment of the Word as the Living Word. Prophecy is still active and happening.

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus is most certainly the believer's advocate. If we confess Jesus before men, He will confess us before the Father. Modern Israel is the fulfillment of Ezekiel 36.

24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, people of Israel!

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
But Jesus said that of those born of women no one is greater than John the Baptist. If we were to pick by greatness, John couldn't be excluded. But it was Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration.

I think the biggest clue is that they will be dressed in sackcloth (black/darkness).

Do you think it's a physical return or a spiritual return?

And the followers of John the Baptist basically say, that (what I take to be the pauline) Jesus is a fake, which makes the situation rather complex, as the pauline Jesus' words would be worthless, meaning that his opinion of John is equally worthless.

Chinese boxes and opinions on opinions.

If Jesus was a fake then why did he acknowledge Christ as the Son of God?

bible.org...

It appears this thread is turning into a fight over the Jews and Israelites role in the world today and the end times.
So thinking about it I decided to bring in a view of the larger picture here. So I'm going to cite my old thread here and explain the larger picture.

Curse of the Apocalypse

The bigger picture here? 2000 years ago approximately the Jews and Israelites triggered that curse with the death of Elijah the prophet/John the Baptist.

The curse in question is a 2000 year top level Leviticus 26 curse. But it is also supposed to be followed by a thousand year day of Jezreel. The flip side of the curse. Life as it's supposed to be with a benevolent God with his people upholding their end of the Leviticus 26 compact. So while it appears that the Jews have been cut off from their God the truth is much worse than that. Their God swings from neutral at best to active hate. Read the verses.


Hosea 5
9 Ephraim shall be desolate in the day of rebuke: among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be.
10 The princes of Judah were like them that remove the bound: therefore I will pour out my wrath upon them like water.
11 Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment.
12 Therefore will I be unto Ephraim as a moth, and to the house of Judah as rottenness.
13 When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Hosea 13
1 When Ephraim spake trembling, he exalted himself in Israel; but when he offended in Baal, he died.
2 And now they sin more and more, and have made them molten images of their silver, and idols according to their own understanding, all of it the work of the craftsmen: they say of them, Let the men that sacrifice kiss the calves.
3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.
4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
5 I did know thee in the wilderness, in the land of great drought.
6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
7 Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them: 8 I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them. 9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.
10 I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?
11 I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.
12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid.
13 The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children.
14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
15 Though he be fruitful among his brethren, an east wind shall come, the wind of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels.
16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

These prophesies are from at least 700 BC. And all you have to do is look at the history of the past 2000 years to see this curse in action.

And this curse is the answer to the question of "Why there is a Christianity in the first place?" Per the prophesies of Genesis 48 and 49 the tribes of Israel were to become a multitude of nations by the end times. The end of this curse. Which means that the world is filled with the descendants of the Israelites.

Christianity is a rescue mission sent to the world to make it possible that some people will deserve to live in tomorrow's world. And per their agreement some Jews will make it too.

Malachi 3-1 I wonder if this is his message.

I'm going with Moses and Elijah. My five reasons for this are as follows:

1. If you notice Moses and Elijah DID the exact same miricles that the two witnesses do as recorded in Relvalation. Read the account and then compare it to Moses and Elijah's ministries. They use the same miricles.

2. Mount of transfiguration. nuff said

3. Moses repersents the law, which will be what gets people saved during the tribulation. Elijah repersents the signs and wonders that will take place during the tribulation.

4. Hebrews 9:27 is not a set in stone comandment, it is a gerneral statement. Its a relitive truth.
Enoch didn't die, neighter did Elijah. Now how you know it is just a gerneral statement is this...in Hebrew 9:27 your proof verse for this argument states: "As it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment:". See why this verse is just a gereral statement? Which leads to #5....

5. Because many people in the Bible....DIED TWICE! Look at all the people Jesus rose from the dead, Lazarus, as well as the man that was cast on Elisha's bones. Not only that, but there will be at least 10 million people that never die at all when Jesus returns in the rapture! So Heb 9:27 falls apart doctrinely for the two witnesses. Hints why I say Moses and Elijah. (could be wrong though, but all the clues point there way)

reply to post by ntech

It appears this thread is turning into a fight over the Jews and Israelites role in the world today and the end times.

It is supposed to be about the Book of Revelation which is the Revelation of Jesus to the people who believe in him, in the various churches. Some people have an obsession with Judaism and can't resist throwing in stuff that is completely off topic.
The specific topic of discussion from Revelation is the vision of the two witnesses.
I would reiterate my earlier analysis which is that the two witnesses are the same two who have always stood with God, and that would have to be the Christ and another person who we call the Holy Ghost, as in the completion of the Holy Trinity.
In practical terms, as in what is going on at the street level, is the manifestation of the power of the Holy Spirit and Jesus to transform individuals so as to be the saints who enter heaven.
The world hates the good and loves the bad, so hate the saints and are happy to see them go, even if it means killing them, to have rid of the condemnation of themselves in comparison to them.