The 2 witnesses of the Tribulation

reply to post by Rustami

not exactly sure what your getting at but do know there are some mentions of the word drunkard. . .

The comparison between the two, one repenting and the other partying.
The true religion that believes in the real Jesus who are sorrowful of their failings , while the fake religion gives it a pass while they just go ahead and have a good time, not concerning themselves in such things. Those do not testify of Jesus but ruin his good name, and they are happy to see the pious go away so as not to show how bad they are in comparison.

Firstly, it's hard to take seriously the letter of the prophecy when it's clearly allegorical. However, if you were to look at the purpose of the two witnesses, I think Julian Assange could be one of them. Perhaps another would be whoever gives the world disclosure on other-worldly knowledge.

The two witnesses combine the powers of Moses (turning water to blood) and Elijah (calling down fire from heaven). Both these two men had "witnessing" roles, one standing up against persecution, the other standing up against idolatry.

I think this points to Moses and Elijah being either the witnesses themselves, or at least role models for the witnesses. The latter is my choice.

Notice that the two witnesses are the olive trees and lampstands. The olive trees are those who have been anointed by Christ. Lampstands are churches. This is not a reference to two men. In my opinion, this is the Christian world and Israel. For all you HARP fans out there, notice that they have the power to shut up the heavens so that it does not rain and to rain down fire on the other nations. Also mentioned here is the fact that these two groups are referred to "figuratively" as Sodom and Egypt where their Lord was crucified. Jesus was not crucified in Egypt. What is this saying?

The answer is to realize that Egypt is the symbolic bondage to the world system (pharaoh/Rulers). It is the exodus and liberation of the world from the NWO. Sodom is the symbolic world system of trade and and unrighteousness bondage of God's people. Christ was sacrificed to save humanity from this bondage and enslavement to sin. One will be taken and the other left.

Now, go back and think about who the witnesses are. To me, the lampstands are Israel and the Christian world. They are the light shining in a dark place. When the Christian nations fall along with Israel by financial collapse, the world will rejoice, only to see their salvation come from the returning Messiah.

Revelation 11:

3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”[a] 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

The Seventh Trumpet

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
It was always my belief that the 2 witnesses in the Tribulation would be Elijah and Enoch. My reasoning for this are based on the Bible itself.

Hebrews 9:27

American King James Version
"And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment"

However, neither men have died. By human reckoning they are still alive because God took them and changed them. They have never tasted death as it is appointed ALL men to do.

Could they be the 2 prophets/witnesses to arise in the tribulation? It is an exciting prospect to think that the 2 greatest men to ever walk the earth should return and witness once more. I'm not saying im right, just that it may be a possibility and definately something to think about. The only 2 men in history who would dare have the courage and audacity to refute the beast's lies and give testimony to the return of the Lord.

edit on 16-8-2011 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

reply to post by SuperiorEd

In my opinion, this is the Christian world and Israel.

In case you haven't noticed, Israel ceased to exist back before Nebuchadnezzar. There may be a regime calling itself Israel but this is completely man-made and is not of God.
The spirit of truth and light are what flows from the throne of God and is what gives life. Jesus testified to that light, then sent the holy spirit.
That spirit and Christ is in the true believers of God and are a witness to the power of God in that they are a holy people from all the world.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

In my opinion, this is the Christian world and Israel.

In case you haven't noticed, Israel ceased to exist back before Nebuchadnezzar. There may be a regime calling itself Israel but this is completely man-made and is not of God.
The spirit of truth and light are what flows from the throne of God and is what gives life. Jesus testified to that light, then sent the holy spirit.
That spirit and Christ is in the true believers of God and are a witness to the power of God in that they are a holy people from all the world.

Daniel's 70 week prophecy still has one week left. This occurs on schedule as Christ is cut off at 4AD. The 70 week is the final week after the gentile nations are brought in and anointed. We are nearly there to the remaining week of 7 years. The seven years starts when we see the abomination of desolation. In 1948, we witnessed the prelude to the fig tree's leaves becoming tender (Matt. 24). Jesus states that the generation that witnesses this happen will not pass away until they see these things take place.

Israel becoming a nation again was a prophecy found in these verses. This also reflects the scattering that took place before:

Ez 26:

16 Again the word of the LORD came to me: 17 “Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman’s monthly uncleanness in my sight. 18 So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. 19 I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. 20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the LORD’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ 21 I had concern for my holy name, which the people of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.
22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, people of Israel!

33 “‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. 34 The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. 35 They will say, “This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited.” 36 Then the nations around you that remain will know that I the LORD have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I the LORD have spoken, and I will do it.’

37 “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Once again I will yield to Israel’s plea and do this for them: I will make their people as numerous as sheep, 38 as numerous as the flocks for offerings at Jerusalem during her appointed festivals. So will the ruined cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the LORD.”

reply to post by SuperiorEd


As long as you are quoting what Revelation says about the Witnesses then I thought I would point out the companion material in Zechariah.

Zechariah 2
And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.
2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying'
9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.
10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.

Zechariah 6

1 And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.
2 In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;
3 And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.
4 Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?
5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the LORD of all the earth.
6 The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country.
7 And the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth.
8 Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country.
9 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying'
10 Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah;
11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
14 And the crowns shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, for a memorial in the temple of the LORD.
15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.

And this is what Malachi says about them.

Malachi 3
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

Malachi 4.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

That's what I know of them so far.

reply to post by SuperiorEd
Revelation is always talking about the same people.

I think I have a rather unique view of this.
I don't think it is Enoch,Moses or Elijah.
I have researched Revelation for many years and doing that research I have found out some amazing things.

There are underground cities approx 300.
I don't believe in the hollow earth theory but I do believe Admiral Byrd did have a conversation with people who live at the North and South poles. There have been reports of a Norweigian fisherman and his boy surviving over two years in the Arctic and learning Sanskrit in the 1800s. I like to think of the Earth as an apple; with two dimples, top and bottom.

Put that together with a UFO that landed on a lawn at Washington and asked a policeman to see the President, to see if He still believed Jesus was the Messiah. The President said He did and they then flew off. (I have lost this link so if anyone knows of it, I would be grateful. I think it happened in the 1950/60s.)

Have you heard of the story that Noah after the Flood took members underground to survive the coming war, some reckon to have been 100-150 years after the Flood.
As humankind had expanded but still had technology and this war was followed by a nuclear war (This explains the Indus Civilization and the radioactive layer in the Indus valley.) There is a story I had heard from the Indian Sagas that the Two Psychic Masters killed the Leader of the technology side, to end the war.

So lets say there are two civilizations at the top and bottom of our world who believe that Jesus was and is the Messiah, are highly attuned to their subconscious and have powers that Jesus had, and also have superior technology. They also live much longer than us, as the Sun doesn't shine the destructive rays there and they have an intact history of the Earth and the empires that have risen and fallen. Wouldn't they be a great candidate for the Two witnesses, as required by most laws including the Biblical law?

After I had discovered all these stories I came to the conclusion Moses, Enoch and Elijah could stay In Heaven as they had earned a nice long rest, why make them come down again? What else could they learn?

After you have made it rain or stopped rain, moved a 2 ton Landrover and turned a tornado 180 mid Atlantic you begin to realize that the Power of God and the' latter rain' is already here and all it needs is Two Masters that live at the Poles to be the Sons of Oil and the Two witnesses.

I believe I am the only person to have this view and as such I know you are not going to accept it but I don't mind, it took me many hours of research to get to this stage.

Do your own research, but it is not Enoch, Moses or Elijah because it doesn't have to be.
I also believe they carried on the position of the Melchizedek Priests from Shem. But that's just a theory.
God bless.

reply to post by ntech


Those are very good quotes. I tend to think that Elijah comes back as a separate event to lead the two witnesses. In Revelation, the lampstands are seven churches. Two churches are witness to the truth.

1. Philadelphia Church of brotherly love.
2. Smyrna Church of martyrdom, persecution, and poverty.

Notice that the other churches appear as the ones that fell away.

3. Ephesus Apostolic, desirable. They left their first love.
4. Pergamos Married to the world. The world infiltrated the church. Mixed doctrines.
5. Thyatira Continual sacrifice. Ungodly doctrines mixed in.
6. Sardis The "dead" church. Few not defiled.
7. Laodicea Church of lukewarmness—spewed out.

They are also the olive trees. They are anointed for showing compassion (love) to others as well as devotion to death.

The two witnesses are these two churches. Elijah comes to restore Israel and prepare the bride for Jesus as he did 2000 years ago in the body of John the Baptist. The real Christians, the two churches, will stand as shining stars in the last days.

Daniel 12

3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

We are those stars as we witness God's love to mankind. LOVE

Feeding the poor is providing knowledge of the truth. Giving drink to the thirsty is revealing truth of God's love. Clothing the sick is providing a means of seeing righteousness as the true garment to be worn. Laying down the body as a sacrifice for the spirit is the job of salvation and redemption through the Grace of God. In John 3 this is the water baptism in the material world leading to the baptism in the spirit. "You must be born again." This is not an option.

Visiting those in prison is loving those who do not deserve our compassion. The point is love. Taking on God's name is taking on His character.

Thank you for the great verses. This kind of amazing discussion makes a person think.

Someone mentioned the two olive trees, which does represent anointing. Dressed in sackcloth is a girdle made of goats hair. Priests and prophets wore this. It is something we also see amongst the Nazarite vow (don't cut your hair, nothing to do with wine, and no touching of a dead body).

Three from the womb were to be Nazarites. Samson, Samuel and John the Baptist. Samson broke his vow over and over, so that leaves two - Samuel and John.

Samuel anointed David and John anointed Jesus.

However, I'm reminded in Zecharia 4 what is said, "Not by might nor by power but by my Spirit, says the LORD Almighty."

It is John who is to go forth in the spirit and power of Elijah and is these two's ongoing function to turn the hearts of children to their fathers and the hearts of the fathers to their children. It's the zeal of the Lord that accomplishes so much for the kingdom, which enables it to advance. I lean towards the two being John and Elijah - both fiesty and that the return is spiritual. Just as the door is flung open by children at the seder for Elijah to come in, or a chair reserved for him at circumcision ceremonies - it is a spiritual happening, imo.

The penitent person seeking being freed from any sinfulness, juxtaposed to those with no such concern.

I am in deep water, and the current overpowers me. . .
Those who hate me without cause are more numerous than the hairs of my head. . .
O God, you are aware of my foolish sins; my guilt is not hidden from you. . .
For I suffer humiliation for your sake and am thoroughly disgraced. . .
I weep and refrain from eating food, which causes others to insult me.
I wear sackcloth and they ridicule me.
Those who sit at the city gate gossip about me; drunkards mock me in their songs.

Zechariah and his vision

“Do not be like your ancestors, to whom the former prophets called out, saying, ‘The Lord who rules over all says, “Turn now from your evil wickedness,”’ but they would by no means obey me,”. . .
. . .I am greatly displeased with the nations that take my grace for granted. . .
. . .I looked again, and there was a man with a measuring line in his hand. . .
. . . ‘Jerusalem will no longer be enclosed by walls because of the multitude of people and animals there. But I (the Lord says) will be a wall of fire surrounding Jerusalem. . .
. . . for anyone who touches you touches the pupil of his eye. . .

The book goes on to mention the priest. The Lord says you (speaking to the priest) and those with you, consider a branch and then it being used to describe the situation in which you find yourselves.
Next there is a scene of a seven branched lamp on a stand made to hold it firmly in place.
It was just explained by using the word branch, then being shown a lamp configured as branches, like a tree.
Then Zechariah asks a series of questions about each item in the scene but gets cut off by the explanation that there is an unseen power (which is the two olive trees and golden pipes with flowing fresh oil, one pipe to each of the branches from each tree. In other words, each tree supplies every branch) behind what is visible in this world and that is the beings who are immortal and stand with God always. Today, in a Christian environment we can understand these as the completion of the Trinity.

All this sort of OT imagery should be brought back to mind while reading the first verses in chapter eleven of Revelation, as John describes the witnesses. They witness the unseen power that is the work of those others who are always with God, being effective in showing the proofs of that power, by being sanctified and holy believers in Jesus and having the Holy Spirit.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

The two witnesses are these two churches. Elijah comes to restore Israel and prepare the bride for Jesus as he did 2000 years ago in the body of John the Baptist. The real Christians, the two churches, will stand as shining stars in the last days.

Nice post and I would fully support it if you had not thrown this lie in.

Israel, as in the modern day regime calling itself by that name, is restored. Get that? Past tense. They did it themselves, not waiting on the Lord to do it Himself. What they have is what they get. A choice they were very well aware of when they made it.
Ancient Israel as in the children of Jacob, son of Isaac, no longer exists as a body or a unit or a whole, of anything.
Christians, as in the believers of Jesus, the branch of David, receive adoption into that nation and are the new Israel, and the blessings of God go to those who belong to this newly filled up nation.
All the prophecies concerning the remnants of what was Israel of old, were in effect and reached their fulfilment when John the Baptist preached in the wilderness and Jesus came to him to be Baptized and then was anointed by the spirit and declared His Son, by God. That was end, done, stamped on those old prophecies. Any new prophecies for the times to come are provided to the Christian believer in the New Testament.

Elijah restores, John the Baptist prepares the way for the bridegroom. It's not just some random coincidence that it didn't rain for 3 1/2 years during Elijah's time, nor that this was also the length of John's ministry.

One could call down fire and the other announced a baptism of fire. One name means 'my God is Yah" and the other name means "God is gracious."

One is spoken of in Malachi as returning and the other clearly references Isaiah about himself.

They are two distinct people with two distinct functions, yet both work through the Spirit.

The confusion that there is some form of reincarnation going on here stems from what our Lord said as he came off the hill from his transfiguration. The disciples asked him (and I'm paraphrasing here), "why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first" and he answers them, "to be sure. but I tell you Elijah has come and they have done to him everything they wished - Just as it is written about him."

Jesus is offering a huge revelation here. As Lord, He is prompting the reader to seek and find where all this is written about John.

Some get a vision, some a revelation. Blessed are they who have not seen yet believe.

If you can figure out this revelation you will understand how both Elijah and John are connected to the power of the resurrected in Christ.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

Jesus is offering a huge revelation here.

Right, the revelation is just an observation of how people want to put labels and names on things that were meant to be understood in a spiritual manner. People have a tendency to try to turn the spiritual into the concrete.
Revelation is all about spiritual meanings and nothing about identifying specific individuals.
The clue is how the witnesses get killed, which is what happens to those who hold true to righteousness in the midst of an evil world going to its judgment. John the Baptist would be an example of such a thing, so there is this concept to ponder. He did the unallowable by pointing out to power how they were doing wrong. Then he got killed instead of the powerful repenting.
We need to be firm in our resolve to not waver from the right way, and to be a witness against those headed towards oblivion, that they could have been good, too if they had decided to forsake wickedness. If you are not so good that the world hates you, then God will not love you.

reply to post by jmdewey60


But to where and to whom is Jesus referring when he stated, "they did everything to him they wished, just as it is written about him." There is hardly anything written about John, so he must go under a different title somewhere in the Bible.

I know the answer and in this case Jesus is referring to someone specific.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

I know the answer and in this case Jesus is referring to someone specific.

That's not in Revelation, what Jesus is saying there that you quoted.
You missed my earlier point, apparently. Jesus was being annoyed at people wanting to pin prophecies onto current events to label everything. So he says, If you can accept it. . .
Which means, just stop it already and what is important to you is already done so let it go.
Jesus I don't think was trying to lay out a method of interpreting future prophecies such as Revelation in that there is a one to one correspondence between them and specific events.
There are concepts and then there are examples that fit into the concepts, it depends on who you are and where you are and when you are that you see certain things and not others.

reply to post by jmdewey60


No it's not in Revelation but it is a revelation and it comes from a vision from God. Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses things are established.

What they are not told they will see and what they have not heard they will understand. The vision is of the arm of the Lord. Others have seen it too. The Suffering Servant doesn't have a head. That is why people are appalled and reject him.

Jesus is referring to the book of Isaiah for all that is written about John. John is the suffereing servant.

No lies here. You need to read Romans 11 in full. Here is the part that speaks to your confusion in this post:

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

The two witnesses are these two churches. Elijah comes to restore Israel and prepare the bride for Jesus as he did 2000 years ago in the body of John the Baptist. The real Christians, the two churches, will stand as shining stars in the last days.

Nice post and I would fully support it if you had not thrown this lie in.

Israel, as in the modern day regime calling itself by that name, is restored. Get that? Past tense. They did it themselves, not waiting on the Lord to do it Himself. What they have is what they get. A choice they were very well aware of when they made it.
Ancient Israel as in the children of Jacob, son of Isaac, no longer exists as a body or a unit or a whole, of anything.
Christians, as in the believers of Jesus, the branch of David, receive adoption into that nation and are the new Israel, and the blessings of God go to those who belong to this newly filled up nation.
All the prophecies concerning the remnants of what was Israel of old, were in effect and reached their fulfilment when John the Baptist preached in the wilderness and Jesus came to him to be Baptized and then was anointed by the spirit and declared His Son, by God. That was end, done, stamped on those old prophecies. Any new prophecies for the times to come are provided to the Christian believer in the New Testament.

edit on 17-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

John is the suffereing servant.

Christianity takes the direction from Paul that the verses about the suffering servant should be thought of in connection with Jesus.