Spare the rod, spoil the child

Gary Tuchman reports on an author who says you must spank your child and a couple who killed their daughter doing it.

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This is a sad, dad story of a young beaten to death in the name of religion. Yes, I pray for this little girl. Little I can do in the name of my faith. There are sick people everywhere.

I can't think of anything a child could do to warrent that kind of beating. Just so over the top

And that metal rod just completely insane!

yes the bible commands parents to beat their children if they dont listen. if they continue to not listen the bible commands them to kill thier disobedient children...gotta love that god of love...

reply to post by ManOfGod267


There is nothing wrong with spanking a child. There is nothing wrong with using "natural consequences" as a type of training and discipline. Pulling a boiling pan of water off the stove has dire and permanent consequences, smacking that same hand with a wooden spoon as it reaches for the boiling pan, has quick and painful consequences that will teach the lesson without the permanent disfiguration!

Now, there is never a reason for a metal rod on a little girl. There is never a reason to "beat" a child at all. There is a drastic difference between a beating and a spanking. A spanking is all about shock and awe. The kid is startled, and surprised, and they have some quick pain to help the message connect in their brain. Reaching for a hot pan on the stove = pain. Got it, lesson learned.

This isn't a religious issue, and this isn't a spanking issue, this is a story of some sick idiots that deserve to be beat to death with a car antenna! There is never any reason to injure a child, and there is no religion that says otherwise.

Spanking and quick and effective natural consequences are a great tool for teaching and disciplining.
BUT
Rods and beatings and injuries are abhorrant and the parents deserve the worst punishment imagineable!

There is a HUGE difference between spanking (discipline) and spanking (abuse). Spanking for disciplinary reasons is mandatory, and the B.I.B.L.E. does TELL parents that spanking a child is meant to be used for correction purposes only; usually, a nice swift slap on that azz will do the trick. Why? Because you CAN'T talk to a child.

I make the arguement, all the time, that a child will only learn that the stove is hot...once he/she burns themselves. You can tell a child, til you turn blue in the face, NOT to touch the stove, because it's hot and they'll get burned; but for some reason, they must learn THE HARD WAY; by burning themselves. Then, they understand!

It AMAZES me how today's parent believes if you 'spoil' the child, they'll grow up to be everything you've always wanted them to be, and that's just NOT the case. The more you give, the more they want; the more they'll keep wanting and expecting that everything should be given to them.

Here's a question that i have: do people know how to say "No", to their children; or is it mandatory that the child gets everything they want? Saying "No" does not make you a bad parent; but saying "Yes" to their every wish, DOES!

"He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24) and "Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13-14)

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.



a god of love?

Yeah....God is a MEAAAAAAAAAAAAN God, waiting to smite thee, everytime you mess up. Do people actually look for EXCUSES on why the B.I.B.L.E. shouldn't be trusted? MAYBE, just MAYBE, God put that in there as HIS way of disciplining. I'm SURE the people during those days...used those very Scrpitures to SCARE the disobedience out of them. Wouldn't that kinda be like going to the police station, and locking your child up...because they refuse to listen.

What IF, God just put that there, to SCARE the child. What IF the child knew that scripture....and what IF that child was disobedient, rebellious, and refused to listen; and the parent brought the child to see the elders? Wouldn't the child be a little scared, simply because he/she KNEW what would happen next? Is it possible that God used this as a scare tactic?

Question: how many of you, parents, threaten your children? How many of you threaten to take away this, if they don't do that? Or, do you just let your child do as they see fit?

And another question: do you people even know what "love" is? Or, do you still think love is located between your legs! If God didn't love you.....you wouldn't be here!

reply to post by ManOfGod267


You have no right to use any violence against another human being, except in self
defence. Why anyone would hit their child is beyond me. I have never once laid
a finger on my 9 year old son and we have a great relationship and love each
other very much. He is far from spoiled. If a parent cannot deal with any problems
regarding their child intellectually and without the use or threat of violence, then they should not
be a parent. How can anyone hit someone they love, and claim it is for the good?
No.No.No!! You have no right!

reply to post by nuttin4U


People acting like children are second rate citizens is why children cause problems. Children act out for attention, period.

My child is teh best behaved on in preschool and I have never laid a hand on him. You speak to a child using the words they understand at their level and you would be surprised of the results you will get. Respect begets respect.

He knows the rules, he knows I mean business. Some children may need a spanking to get the point across.

You know what happens if you punish a child for lying? You encourage them to become better liars.
They will come up with more scrupulous ways to avoid becoming caught.

Who takes child rearing advice from the bible? Seriously.

Originally posted by CaDreamer
"He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24) and "Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13-14)

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

a god of love?

edit on 16-8-2011 by CaDreamer because: (no reason given)

You seem to be really caught up on the whole "God of love" thing? Who cares? Not I!

I care about the child. I could care less what the book says, I care about results. With some children, a lecture might work better than the rod. With some children, love and attention might work better than the rod. With some children nothing might work.

I could make a case to support exactly what your quoted verses say. For example, what if 14 or 15 years of raising a child have only shown the child to be rebelious and violent and criminal in nature. Perhaps, the law has been involved, and the childs violence has escalated to the point of harming or killing someone? Wouldn't the state probably try the child as an adult and put him to death? If the state can do it, then why not the parent? I would say, if I had a child with an obvious mental defect, that was a danger to society, and all of my best efforts, and the best efforts of my wife and in-laws, and friends were all failures, then perhaps that child would need my loving hand to snuff him out. It would be extremely sad and disheartening, but in a different world and a different time than today, I would rather do it myself than watch the state do it without the love of a father by his side.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by nuttin4U

 

People acting like children are second rate citizens is why children cause problems. Children act out for attention, period.

My child is teh best behaved on in preschool and I have never laid a hand on him. You speak to a child using the words they understand at their level and you would be surprised of the results you will get. Respect begets respect.

He knows the rules, he knows I mean business. Some children may need a spanking to get the point across.

You know what happens if you punish a child for lying? You encourage them to become better liars.
They will come up with more scrupulous ways to avoid becoming caught.

Who takes child rearing advice from the bible? Seriously.

Holla at me when your child gets around INFLUENCES...PEER PRESSURE. Let's see how well he knows your rules...when he's smoking weed and drinking beers behind the school. I wouldn't pat yourself on the back yet, you got a LONG way to go, sir or maam!

And, another thing you said, that stuck out like a sore thumb....."He knows the rules, he knows I mean business. Some children may need a spanking to get the point across." How does he "know the rules" and what do we make of this: "he knows i mean business"!? How does he know you "mean business"; And, when he crosses the line, what type of 'business' do you mean?

One minute you talk about not disciplining then the next it's....you 'mean business'. One minute you make it seem like you don't give any kind of discipline and the next you talk about spanking. Well, which is it? So, when your child lies to you....what do you do? Tell them lying is wrong, and expect them to NEVER lie again. hahahaha YOU'RE DELUSIONAL...AND LACK EXPERIENCE. Your child is only in pre-school. Give it some time.

And another question i have is this: do you really think the system is gonna give them a 'time out' or a "do over" when they break the law? Do you think the man is NOT going to discipline them? Or, do you REALLY BELIEVE your parenting skills are all that and then some?

The "man" will have NO MERCY when your child messes up and breaks the law; and these days...that's getting easier to do...with all the rules and regulations the "man" has put on us. In the 'man's" mind.....we're all disobedient children...and he's waiting to put the smack down on us!

What I really don't get about this whole "I spank you because I love you and this hurts me more than this hurts you" is this: How are parents making sure that, along with teaching little Tommy to not touch the stove, they aren't simultaneously teaching that when someone is about to do something you don't like, just a quick little surprise physical pain will do the trick?

Can anyone explain how this is done? How is it possible to ensure that the young child doesn't equate physical prowess with getting your own way? And how is it able to be known that, when watching your spouse hit your child, that the child ISN'T being hit out of anger, but instead, out of a deep and unabiding love?

I just don't get it. I live in a US city, where I take the bus to work each day after seeing the morning's news coverage of overnight shootings. As I wonder how the hell things got that way, I'm jilted from my imagination by the loud, sudden sound of a smack and a child screaming "Mommy stop!". This is almost every day on the bus, within one culture which routinely holds candlelight vigils, crying to stop the violence, and screaming to take back the streets. How many of these violent kids were batted around at home, all the while thinking "I'll have my day...just wait till I have my day"?

Two weeks ago, when someone had the audacity to suggest that womb-donor-turned-welfare-increase-recipient hold off on the smacking of her child, she made a call on her cell, got off at the next stop and nodded to the two boys boarding the bottom stair of the bus with automatic rifles who proceeded to spray bullets toward the bus's interior. Somehow, no-one was hurt. It was the kind of miracle that could almost make a genius find religion.

If I didn't want my child to participate in violence in any capacity, my first step would be to ensure that they were not exposed to violence in their own home. In theory and practice, demonstrating that violence is never the answer. I want a world where children are shocked by violence - not riveted and grateful to not be on the receiving end.

I wasn't smacked for almost touching something dangerous. My parents employed the time-honored, bone-chilling tradition so many of us continue fearing as grown, independent adults. It simultaneously conveyed deep disappointment and the impending doom of a playtime prematurely ended: the look. Sure, sometimes I saw "the look", giggled, and continued to dismantle my second alarm clock of the day, but without fail, I ended my own playtime and began the torture of total boredom, seated in our unlighted dining room until bedtime. As time passed, I cultivated deep respect for "the look". I swear I can sometimes even hear it on the phone today.

And now, for the subversives...

Originally posted by pshea38
reply to post by ManOfGod267

 

You have no right to use any violence against another human being, except in self
defence. Why anyone would hit their child is beyond me. I have never once laid
a finger on my 9 year old son and we have a great relationship and love each
other very much. He is far from spoiled. If a parent cannot deal with any problems
regarding their child intellectually and without the use or threat of violence, then they should not
be a parent. How can anyone hit someone they love, and claim it is for the good?
No.No.No!! You have no right!

You have EVERY RIGHT. What you have no right to do, is tell me how to raise....MY CHILD! That's where the biggest problem is...people are worried about my house, and not their own. It's MY CHILD!!! What part don't you get? Like my momma always used to say...."I brought you into this world.....I'll take you out!"

I would love to know the ages of some of these, non-disciplining parents of today. 21 years old...with a baby, hardly makes you an adult. You're still trying to figure out your life...and you're gonna give the best to your child? ahahahah I doubt it!

reply to post by nuttin4U

The "man" will have NO MERCY when your child messes up and breaks the law; and these days...that's getting easier to do...with all the rules and regulations the "man" has put on us. In the 'man's" mind.....we're all disobedient children...and he's waiting to put the smack down on us!

It isn't just "the man" either.

It is other full grown adults. There are bullies in school, bullies at work, wild animals in the woods, and predators on the streets. "Natural Consequences" are abundant. Some people actually enjoy violence, and if some poor kid has grown up their whole life thinking violence is unacceptable, then how will they respond to it when having to face it alone for the first time?

Our world is violent. It doesn't matter if it is an alligator in the ditch, a panther in the tree, or a hoodlum behind a dumpster. Everyone will encounter some form of violence, and they better realize that "talking it out" doesn't always work!

A parent is remiss in their duties if they don't give children enough responsibility to fail miserably a time or two, and if they don't give children enough "discipline" to help some of the most important messages make an organic connection in their brain. You just can't explain "hot" enough, but one little touch sure does the trick. A parent is remiss in their duties if they don't argue once in awhile, and then explain to a child that arguments are normal, and should be avoided, but also they are not the end of the world, and people argue and then make up and move on.

Coddling a child is the worst parenting of all. Plenty of decent kids have grown up with parents that are too strict or too violent, but I have never seen a decent kid come from parents that were not strict enough, or never shown any discpline.

For the record, I have seen bad kids be extremely respectful to someone that showed just a little authority. I once watched a kid tear up my whole showroom at a tirestore, and the mother just ignored him. When I got tired of it, I said, "excuse me a moment." I went around the counter, snatched the boys hand, quickly and got his attention, and then I held his hand as we marched around the room and repaired all the damage he had done. When we were finished, we marched over to his mother, and I placed his hand in hers, and I told him to stand still and be quiet or I would be back around. He stood there stone-faced and didn't move a muscle. His mother glared at me for a few moments, and then they left. They didn't buy any tires, but the kid learned a valuable lesson! I didn't "hit" him, but I did physically correct him, and I did startle and frighten him a little, and it worked.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by nuttin4U

 

The "man" will have NO MERCY when your child messes up and breaks the law; and these days...that's getting easier to do...with all the rules and regulations the "man" has put on us. In the 'man's" mind.....we're all disobedient children...and he's waiting to put the smack down on us!

I didn't "hit" him, but I did physically correct him, and I did startle and frighten him a little, and it worked.

You disciplined him and that's what got his attention. Discipline comes in MANY forms....not just hitting. Sometimes, a threat works just as good. It's great to see that you at LEAST did something. My question is: where the heck was the parent? Not physically but mentally, where were they? How can a person let a child, act a fool, in a public place, without doing SOMETHING?

The funny thing is...there must have been something building up inside of you...to make you take action...so, how come there wasn't that fire with the parent.

Interestingly enough.....the parent LET the child act a fool....in their presence....imagine outside of their presence.

My wife has that problem with our kids. When she takes them out...they act a fool....simply because she does NOTHING. When i take my kids out...they KNOW how to act, because they KNOW i'm not tolerating them embarassing me, in public. Apparently, my wife doesn't seem to mind; yet, she wonders why they won't listen?

reply to post by nuttin4U

My wife has that problem with our kids. When she takes them out...they act a fool....simply because she does NOTHING. When i take my kids out...they KNOW how to act, because they KNOW i'm not tolerating them embarassing me, in public. Apparently, my wife doesn't seem to mind; yet, she wonders why they won't listen?

Mine Too!!

My kids act great with me, and we always have a great time when we go out together. When my wife takes them out and then comes home, she complains about how misbehaved they are, and how exhausted she is.

Her problem is not "picking her battles." She constantly corrects them over the smallest things without any intention of following through. So they just get used to ignoring her. Whereas, I let them get away with a lot, and I don't say much, but they know when I speak up, I mean it, and they only get the one chance to straighten up.

Originally posted by nuttin4U

Originally posted by pshea38
reply to post by ManOfGod267

 

You have no right to use any violence against another human being, except in self
defence. Why anyone would hit their child is beyond me. I have never once laid
a finger on my 9 year old son and we have a great relationship and love each
other very much. He is far from spoiled. If a parent cannot deal with any problems
regarding their child intellectually and without the use or threat of violence, then they should not
be a parent. How can anyone hit someone they love, and claim it is for the good?
No.No.No!! You have no right!

You have EVERY RIGHT. What you have no right to do, is tell me how to raise....MY CHILD! That's where the biggest problem is...people are worried about my house, and not their own. It's MY CHILD!!! What part don't you get? Like my momma always used to say...."I brought you into this world.....I'll take you out!"

I would love to know the ages of some of these, non-disciplining parents of today. 21 years old...with a baby, hardly makes you an adult. You're still trying to figure out your life...and you're gonna give the best to your child? ahahahah I doubt it!

You are plain ignorant, and i wouldn't let your type anywhere near my child. You don't own
another human being, be it your child or not. And if 21 year olds think like you say, they buy
and sell you in terms of decency and attitude. You think you know s**t.
You don't know s**t. If i saw you hitting a child in public, i would be very tempted to give
you a taste of your own medicine. Your type will probably make excuses for the despicables
of the horror story in the opening post. You are probably not far off them!

reply to post by pshea38


If I saw someone violantly flogging a child, I would step in and stop them also.

On the other hand, if I decide to smack my child once on the behind, or grab their cheeks and pull them up close to my face and talk sternly to them, and some do-gooder comes along and says something. The do-gooder might get the beating in place of the child, and the child will get the lecture and lesson by proxy!

It is not a good idea to interfere with someone else's child rearing, so if you make that choice, you better be dam sure you are correct, and there is some real-life abuse going on. If it is just a difference of opinion, it will probably end very badly for the one interfering.

On that same token, the same goes for spousal abuse. I have made the mistake twice in my life of stepping in to help a strange woman getting beaten. Both times, the woman ended up attacking me, I had to fight her and the male, and the police came in and threatened to arrest me! Once, I was actually put into cuffs while they sorted it all out. Now I know, if you see some trashy couple beating on each other in a parking lot, just grab some popcorn and watch!

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by nuttin4U

 

My wife has that problem with our kids. When she takes them out...they act a fool....simply because she does NOTHING. When i take my kids out...they KNOW how to act, because they KNOW i'm not tolerating them embarassing me, in public. Apparently, my wife doesn't seem to mind; yet, she wonders why they won't listen?

Mine Too!!

My kids act great with me, and we always have a great time when we go out together. When my wife takes them out and then comes home, she complains about how misbehaved they are, and how exhausted she is.

Her problem is not "picking her battles." She constantly corrects them over the smallest things without any intention of following through. So they just get used to ignoring her. Whereas, I let them get away with a lot, and I don't say much, but they know when I speak up, I mean it, and they only get the one chance to straighten up.

I guess people think discipline = spanking. Sometimes, a "look" does just fine. You know, the kind that's made before the last straw drops.

reply to post by nuttin4U


Yep, but you have to have had a history of a couple of those spankings to get the point across. Or at least a history of something that got the child's attention in a way that they don't want repeated. It could be sleeping alone in their room, or it could be a demoralizing lecture, or it could be whack with something.

The point is, the look works great, as long as it is backed up with some history. My kids are 4 years old, and 3 years old, and I don't think I have had to spank either one of them in at least 6 months. I have had to snatch them up quickly, and put my nose to their nose and ask if they want to continue ignoring me, and the answer is always, "no sir." And then I sit them down, talk calmly for a second or two, and they go about their business in the proper manner.

The spankings should be early, and rare, and timely. You never spank them for something you didn't catch them doing, and you never spank them if there is any other option, and if you do it when they are young and small, it doesn't have to be hard, and you won't have to worry about doing it later on in life. I highly doubt my 4 year old will ever need another spanking the rest of his life. He is a great kid, and lectures have begun to work better than spankings. He hates being made to sit still and listen and repeat back. He hates the words, "come here, we need to talk about this."

As for my 3 year old, he will need it until he is probably 25! He loves to cause trouble. But, spankings aren't very effective with him, so I am having to be more creative in his discipline, and I doubt he gets any more spankings either. He gets whatever he least expects, and that makes it effective. If he thinks he is getting a spanking, he might get a chore instead, or if he thinks he is getting a chore or a spanking, maybe he gets a time out. Then, when he least expects a spanking, he gets whapped with something to get his attention, LOL!