It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Australian PM John Howard, Son of a Nazi

page: 2
0
<< 1   >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 23 2004 @ 09:49 AM
link   
Ezekial, what about my first question?

Nimbin? No, it wasn't isolated to a small area of the country, the surveys were done everywhere. All major cities had the largest demonstrations in their history. You may have been gung-ho about killing and invading, but you were in the minority.

I agree with Paul Sweeney. What Olivia Scott said was horrible.. this "them and us" mentality is part of what the apology should be for, to move forward instead of backwards.. the Commonwealth still hasn't signed a Treaty. They did that in New Zealand years ago, and they moved forward from there. Terra Nullius is a horrible lie, and maybe you're too young to understand what was happening 50 years ago, let alone 200 years ago.

50 years ago Aboriginal people were still considered animals. As in part of the fauna of Australia. They were not considered "equal" until the 1960's and even then that was just in law. They were still murdered on a regular basis.

Imagine this for a minute. Imagine if tomorrow, UFO's came down from space and landed in Australia. The alien race, with a completely alien culture decided that they were going to call Australia their home, and the people here, us, were just animals to them. We were killed on mass, they raped us, tortured us, our kids were taken from us, they killed all the Tasmanians (even David Boone) and a lot of us started to get hooked on this new drug the aliens used. The alilens, who had been using this drug for many years had a constitution that coped with the drug. We, on the other hand were sent loopy by the drug, as well as found it very addictive. The aliens also have a completely different law system, different education system, a totally alien system of living altogether.. say they slept in floating coffins, they wore helmets all day, and liked to spin on their heads.

After a couple hundred years, after we are destitute, living in camps designed for us, in poor health and spirit, the aliens get together and decide to make us humans "equal" in their system now. We can now vote for aliens to represent us, we can now join their system. They say "Look, we aren't going to say sorry for giving you floating coffins, and helmets, or for giving you camps to live in.. just get over it, and accept it.. and besides you're much better off now. Your kids that were stolen were better off".

Well, Ezekial, you're one of those aliens, and so is Olivia Scott. I don't think you understand that though.

PS Does "valiant" do your thinking for you? Was he the one who taught you about "promagnun" man? And I would still like an answer to my first question...

The God you want to bless America.. is that the same God who commanded "Thou Shall Not Kill"?




posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 04:22 AM
link   
Thanks Stoneskull,

I was thinking through a response to Ezekial, and when I read yours, I found you had covered the ground I wanted to.

I have encountered his attitude concerning every instance of oppression. As an African American, I get people telling me that my people should be glad for the horrors of slavery because of the difference between modern day living standards in the US and Africa. Its quite insulting.

There is always someone who thinks that inflicting hell on you is for your own good.

Anyway, what does it tell the Koori community when the leader of the nation is unable to express regret at the suffering inflicted upon them? It certainly does not help Reconciliation efforts undertaken by those Australians who don't have their heads up their butts...

U.



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 09:21 AM
link   
No valiant is just a guy who told me of the story about Olivier.

I respect your answer StoneSkull and understand your point. But living within these problem areas gives you a first hand look at what our indiginous brothers are doing to themselves (now).

I also have a problem, you may be able to enlighten me on this.

Traditionally Aboriginies are nomadic, am I correct? So how can aboriginal activists claim land title over areas that they may have passed through?
Correct me if I'm wrong Im not being a smartass.

Also if these activists are complaining about the aboriginal culture being taken away, please be my guest, go out into the bush and live the way aboriginies did traditionally. I know a number of traditional aboriginies from my time working with them in the NT and these people have no problems with alcohol and drugs, simply because they are not exposed to them, most of these people were from Alice Springs and CHOSE to rid themselves of the temptations.

As for Howard, It's not his place to say sorry, he didn''t do anything.

'I'm Sorry for what the government did in the 1950's'.

There, hopefully we can learn to continue in our lives.

Upuant, I did not mean any offence to the African Americans among us, just wondering about the reverse racism that floods the media still, if we are working for equality it has to cut both ways.



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 10:21 AM
link   
Ezekial, I grew up in the inner-city of Sydney, I lived in the Northern Territory for three years, and have had two Aboriginal girlfriends (one from Sydney and one from Alice Springs). I was offered a house in an Aboriginal community just outside Alice Springs, and have known Tribal Elders from a few different tribes from around Australia, so I think I've had a fair "first-hand" look at Aboriginal life.

There were many tribes in Australia, over 200 of them, and while they did travel great distances throughout the seasons, you could make borders around where they travelled. Instead of getting around by street signs, and street directories, they would know where to go by recognition of trees and rocks, and other landmarks, and they would paint maps of their areas using symbols.

For example, this painting:



If you didn't know what you were looking at, you might think it was just a weird painting. What it is, is a map, and is quite common. Those rainbow-shapes are people, the circle in the middle is the main camp site, and you can see the paths to walk. Those arrow-shapes represent Emus. There are many symbols for other types of food, where to find water, and other places, including sacred sites. They're not all on that painting but there's a few on that one.

I think it's too late for John Howard to say sorry. It's obvious he wouldn't mean it if he apologised anyway. It's going to be up to someone else.




posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 05:15 PM
link   

Originally posted by Ezekial
As for Howard, It's not his place to say sorry, he didn''t do anything.



Come on.
Howard is the prime minister, right? Doesn't that make him a representative of this nation? Since when is being the most prominent representative of your nation about your responsabilities as an individual and nothing else?



'I'm Sorry for what the government did in the 1950's'.

There, hopefully we can learn to continue in our lives.


You obviously were perfectly able to beforehand... But if you sincerely become comfortable with the reality that the building of your nation has all but destroyed many cultures across the continent, and has defaced the earth that is sacred to them, and if you become able to apologize sincerely without it hurting your pride or sense of propriety, you may be able to help the healing process throughout the remainder of your days on Earth.

Saying sorry to a Koori person makes a huge difference. I'm very visibly not White Australian but I have said 'sorry' in the African way to many Koori's, expresing regret for what they have been through. In Africa, and indeed for many Westerners who are not hung up about guilt, saying sorry does not imply responsibility for the regretted events. It is simply a sign of sympathy.

Each time I have done so, the response has been very emotional and positive. If we want a united Australia that breeds respect for its diverse communities, this is the ground work we have to carry out. Person to person.

Also, if you can help to change the minds of the many other White Australians who think no expression of regret is necessary, you will speed up this process.



Upuant, I did not mean any offence to the African Americans among us, just wondering about the reverse racism that floods the media still, if we are working for equality it has to cut both ways.


I'm not sure what media instances of reverse racism you are refering to...

Stay well,

U.



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 05:33 PM
link   
Just another note on the nomadic nature of Koori people of old. Many of the groups had well delineated areas they would visit seasonally, and although some people would go walkies over great distances, the group itself had a comparitively compact coverage.

It is also sophistry to consider that a lack of or vagueness of notion of property is any excuse to take land from another person. Very dishonest.
It is an instance of what people who try to impose their cultural values on others do all the time, and I hear Americans make this type of argument about Native Americans and their shared history of horrors all the time. I ehar French people make the same arguments about the Berbers of North Africa.

The Koori people have always considered the land to be sacred. If you decide that their lack of ownership is a green light to assuage your greed to possess, then you should consider their notion of the sacred nature of the land as a red light to carry out any development whatsoever. I am sure the Koori would not mind indulging your illusion of ownership if you let them continue using the lands they did since time immemorial, and did not taint it with development.
No, any way you cut it, Australia was TAKEN. It was conquest accompanied by subjugation. We can make amends of sorts today by according the respect to Aboriginal culture that we didn't in the past.

New Zealanders have signed a treaty, as Stoneskull pointed out. Children learn some Maori in school, and they learn about what it is to see the world through Maori eyes. Why are we not teaching our children the same things in Australian schools? Why do we sign no official treaty with the Koori people?
The message we send, as the dominant culture, is that Koori culture is worthless to us and that we do not plan to incorporate it into the future of this nation. As such, is it a surprise that so many Koori people also abandon their identity and culture and flounder in the no man's land between their's and our's? That is the realm of violence and drugs: they are attempts to fill an existential void of identity.

U.



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 06:13 PM
link   
stoneskull:

You need to look at the bigger picture.

The site you referenced is a labor party site and the article is based on no facts, ie "family members" and "CEC research"...yeah right.

Regarding the fact that Howard lied, well to put it bluntly, he was misled. To claim that Howard won the last election based on Tampa is also a joke.

The labor party are clutching at straws at the moment and they are trying every which way to personally attack howard. BTW, where are the labor party policies? Shouldn;t they be concentrating on them? As for liars, what about keating's L-A-W..LAW policy? Never saw that did we? That was one BIG con (amongst others).

Latham is also a coward - anyone who king hits someone else is a coward. Also, for him to go from a "name calling" uncouth idiot to a "baby lover", well, if someone can change their "outward appearance" that fast I wouldn't trust him for anything - he changes based on what the people want whereas howard has been consistant all along.

As also mentioned before, the libs have paid back 100 billion of debt that labor racked up.

They may say they're the "people party", however unfortunately they have no idea about economics. The majority of the leadership are union thugs.

You also mentioned:

"We remember the ideals of free education and free healthcare, the philosophy of a secure social security net.."

The libs have increased education funding and healthcare for australians and our standard of living is much better.

Can't you remember the 18 percent interst rates we had under labor? Surely you can...this meant that families were paying a hell of a lot more in interest...

Supporting the arts and quality journalism? WTF has quality journalism have to do with the libs?

The Arts making us a lucky country? LOL

Like I said, look at the big picture and you'll see that we are a hell of a lot better off with johnny.

Remember the interest rates we had with labor and the LAW policy regarding tax etc etc. Labor tells lies directly to the public wheras the libs get the wrong info and then labor tries to make a big thing out of it.

Regarding the "lost generation", well believe it or not the aboriginals were'nt the only culture affected by this policy...and we don;t hear anything from them do we.

I was speaking with a lovely aboroginal elder some time ago and she was being ostracised because she did not toe the "living in the past" theme. She actually said that once aboriginal people stop living in the past and start looking at the future them everthing would work out. Did you know that ernie dingo was also ostracised by his people?

I have also known other elders and these are the most lovely people you will come across...

So, stoneskull, I can see your point of view however if you dig a little deeper regarding the monsy paid back, the interest rate falls since the libs got into power, the australian economy, the funding of education etc etc in terms of REAL growth, I can GUARANTEE you would vote for johnny.

I know, I'm a swinging voter and look very closely at each parties policies.

Cheers

JS

PS: johnny has personally apologised for what happended to the AB people re the "stolen generation" AND to the other groups of people as well who felt "stolen".

He has aplogised!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He hasn't apologised from a government perspective due to the fact that once he apologises on that level then it's automatic money for these people regarding claims. When discussing this with the lady elder that I met, I asked her if it was about the money and she laughed - she had actually tried to broker an official apology and she said that she tried to get her "people" to agree not to sue if the PM apologised on behalf of the government...and guess what...that's when the SHlT started to hit the fan for her - she said that she saw that all the "supposed" concerned people (for the people) were really only concerned about getting more $$$$...so she left the political arena!

She also said that the aboroginal people need a leader who looks at the future and not the past...maybe one of the true elders could do this?




[edit on 24-8-2004 by jumpspace]



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 09:06 PM
link   
I was not aware of the personal apology.

As for the government one, guess what? It is up to the Aboriginal community to decide whether it wants to sue or not (even though I would be in favor of very limited suits, none personal, and all funneled towards education and conservation programs run by aboriginals).

If there is something to apologize for, then facing possible suits is facing REALITY.

U.



posted on Aug, 24 2004 @ 09:56 PM
link   

Originally posted by tututkamen
Ow well,

No one truly cares or believes! GW Bush's grandfather was a Nazi supporter to the max.


To the max eh?

He had some stakes in a company that was trading with the nazis. I had thought that he himself had direct control over this incident, but apparently he wasn't even incharge of the compnay that did.

He was, I beleive, charged under the 'trading with the enemy' act.

But to suggest that he was a 'nazi to the max' while his sone was nearly killed while fighting the major ally of the nazis is rather silly.



Recently declassified US government documents, unearthed last October by investigative journalist John Buchanan at the New Hampshire Gazette, reveal that Prescott Bush's involvement in financing and arming the Nazis was more extensive than previously known. [...]
Permission to reprint is granted, provided it includes this autobiographical note, and credit for first publication to Online Journal.


Wouldn't it have been a good idea to include a link to this article, instead of copying and pasting it,?



posted on Aug, 25 2004 @ 03:20 AM
link   
jumpspace, the site i referenced was the CEC's site, and the CEC is not part of the ALP.

It's not a joke. Kim Beazley was way in front of John Howard as preferred PM, and the ALP was ahead of Liberal as preferred government.. and then 911 and Tampa happened.

The muck-raking of Mark Latham has been disgusting. He denies king-hitting that guy, and there's no evidence that he did, and jeez, fights happen. And that whole saga about the bachelor party - now, that's a joke. How many bachelor parties have strippers? A lot. It's in the past, and big deal.

You know who we borrow money from? Who we pay it back to? Do you understand both major parties are owned by the bank? Most nations on Earth are. (I think there are only 5 nations left that aren't in the World Bank-Central Bank web). Yeah, the Liberals brought in the GST which has been reaping stacks of money in, (statistically from the lower-income earners, i.e. income/spending ratio) and the interest rates are not the government's control, they come from the privately owned Reserve Bank.

Medicare Plus is Medicare Minus, Private Schools receiving public money, let alone more public money than the public schools, is ridiculous and horrible. And the recent Friday 13 Free Trade agreement is a whole other issue.. indeed a black day for a Australia).

And you ask WTF quality journalism has to do with the Libs. Well, since the Libs came into power, the ABC has had its funding cut three times, the ABC's "school of journalism" was shut down, a school that was responsible for many of our top journalists. Foreign Correspondent's funding was cut by 50%, Four Corners budget was cut by a similar amount, and there have been threats to cut even more of ABC's money.

You're right, it wasn't just the Australian Aborigines that were murdered and had their culture and history destroyed by Europe's Royal Families.. there is the North American, South American, African, and Asian indiginous cultures who were similarly trampled on.

Finally, if and when we become a republic, I will be supporting and advocating giving all Crown Land back to the Koories, and would also like to see the powers of the Reserve Bank, i.e. the printing of Australia's money, and subsequent loaning of that money to Australia's government, given to the Koories. I'd also like to see the Aboriginal flag become our National flag. These actions would, among other benefits, protect us from the UN taking ownership over our land, and a long future for the nation.



posted on Aug, 25 2004 @ 05:39 AM
link   
stoneskull:

>jumpspace, the site i referenced was the CEC's site, and the CEC is not part of the ALP.

Come on stoneskull - have you looked at the member list? It's all unions and labor supporters, ie LABOR!

>Kim Beazley was way in front of John Howard as preferred PM, and the ALP was ahead of Liberal as preferred government.. and then 911 and Tampa happened.

Yes...so what? It's the reaction of Beazley and how he reacted that killed him...it would have even helped Beazley if he had a decent policy at the time.

>The muck-raking of Mark Latham has been disgusting.

Right...and what about the recent lie about this list of lies that Howard did? Labor are targeting howard BIG TIME. Raking re latham? That's not coming from the libs I'm afraid - it's his big mouth that get's him into trouble there.

>He denies king-hitting that guy, and there's no evidence that he did, and jeez, fights happen.

And why would a labor guy come out and say that Latham did king hit him? What about the taxi driver? A fight is fine but when you king hit someone (ie hit someone when they've got their back to you) it's simply a coward act. Anyone who king hits someone else is a COWARD!

>And that whole saga about the bachelor party - now, that's a joke. How many bachelor parties have strippers? A lot. It's in the past, and big deal.

Having a stripper is fine but I think you'll find what was done was a bit "sick and twisted".

On another note, you say "it's in the past"...why dn't you apply that same reasoning to the AB people? Like I said, the sooner they look forward, the sooner they will be more of a proud people. I think it's sad the small minority of AB's are causing all this shlt.

>You know who we borrow money from? Who we pay it back to?

Um, yes.

>Do you understand both major parties are owned by the bank?

Evidence? You're pulling strings here...politics is very complex and the journey to the top is very complex as well. No-one "owns" any party - there are intertwined relationships that, yes, do include banks but it's the ministers etc etc with their own interests - as well as friends and the people that helped them there and their peer ministers etc etc - that create these complex relationships.

>Yeah, the Liberals brought in the GST which has been reaping stacks of money in, (statistically from the lower-income earners, i.e. income/spending ratio).

Yes and ALL that money is given to the States and ALL the states are LABOR PARTY CONTROLLED. And ALL the states are partly responsible for School funding, roads etc etc.

>...and the interest rates are not the government's control.

No, they're based on the economy of the country. Guess who directs money into different industries and creates policies to "fine tune" a country's policies that determine the economy of the country? You guessed it, the Fed. Govt.

>...they come from the privately owned Reserve Bank.

*sigh* Now the Reserve Bank is privately owned. LOL. Come on stoneskull, if you're going to become an independent, you're going to have to know a bit more
Here's an extract from the reserve bank act:

-----------------
SECT 30
Profits

(1)
Subject to subsection (2), the net profits of the Bank in each year shall be dealt with as follows:

(aa) such amount as the Treasurer, after consultation with the Reserve Bank Board, determines is to be set aside for contingencies; and
(a) such amount as the Treasurer, after consultation with the Reserve Bank Board, determines shall be placed to the credit of the Reserve Bank Reserve Fund; and
(b) the remainder shall be paid to the Commonwealth.
-----------------

Now if the reserve bank was privately owned, why are all the profits going to government? Also, who appoints the top dog of the reserve bank? Yes, the Fed. Govt.

Here's a link to the reserve bank act:

scaleplus.law.gov.au...

>Private Schools receiving public money, let alone more public money than the public schools, is ridiculous and horrible.

Stoneskull, I'm starting to get upset now. You make all these claims but you really do not know what you are talking about. Regarding schools, you will find that the libs have INCREASED (even above real terms) funding to public schools since they came into power.

AAAAAAAAArrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh...

ALSO, the state governments are receiving HEAPS of more money via the GST and where is it going? The Fed. govt. component of school funding has increased WAY ABOVE the state goverment's component.

Do your research! If you are going to become and independent, you're going to get shot down in flames!

>And the recent Friday 13 Free Trade agreement is a whole other issue.. indeed a black day for a Australia).

Regarding? Why did labor support it then?

>And you ask WTF quality journalism has to do with the Libs. Well, since the Libs came into power, the ABC has had its funding cut three times, the ABC's "school of journalism" was shut down, a school that was responsible for many of our top journalists. Foreign Correspondent's funding was cut by 50%, Four Corners budget was cut by a similar amount, and there have been threats to cut even more of ABC's money.

So the ABC controls ALL journalism in Australia? Nope! I'd also like to see links to these facts please stoneskull...I'd be interested in seeing these


On another note, Channel 7, 9 and 10 have a "theme" intro that changes probably twice a year.

The ABC have a theme intro that changes twice every week. If the ABC is so under-funded, WHY are they wasting so much money on simple theme changes? Couldn't they divert that into more needed areas?

>You're right, it wasn't just the Australian Aborigines that were murdered and had their culture and history destroyed by Europe's Royal Families..

Well I was talking about the stolen generation. What are you talking about? You can't change topic mid way stoneskull when you lose a point


>...there is the North American, South American, African, and Asian indiginous cultures who were similarly trampled on.

BIG DEAL! That's history - get over it! How many cultures in the world were WIPED OUT due to conquering nations?

Also, who's to say that the AB's never conquered some other culture?

Move on!

>Finally, if and when we become a republic, I will be supporting and advocating giving all Crown Land back to the Koories

Why? The top part of aus (and I believe the best part) is owned by the AB's...and that's the way it should be - they're the gatekeepers.

Tell you what, why don't you make a public announcement and hand over any property that you have worked hard all your life for and hand it to the AB's...No? Nah, I didn't think so!

>...and would also like to see the powers of the Reserve Bank, i.e. the printing of Australia's money, and subsequent loaning of that money to Australia's government, given to the Koories.

Right...and I suppose the management of the money would be the same as how ATSIC managed their money? LOL. Why do you think the management of the AB's money was taken from ATSIC? They don't know how to manage money!

>I'd also like to see the Aboriginal flag become our National flag.

Why? Don't you want a flag for all the people?

>These actions would, among other benefits, protect us from the UN taking ownership over our land, and a long future for the nation.

Well, we would be bankrupt and no-one would be interested in us so I gues you are right here


Cheers

JS



posted on Aug, 25 2004 @ 06:54 AM
link   
Haha, now i know you're nuts. And not just because of the alternate smiling and screaming at me.

You don't know much about the CEC, do you? You only have to spend a few minutes on their site to realise they are against the ALP/Coalition tyranny. The phony "opposition", whether it's ALP or Coalition (they just take turns) represents a voice of disagreement with whichever of the two is in government, creating this illusion that there is real debate, and democracy.

"So what?"?.. You said "What a joke" before, now it's "So what?"

The taxi driver tried to steal Latham's briefcase.. he was even on the Sunday program, and admitted it. Even the taxi driver said it was just a tackle.

And the Labor guy who claims that Latham king-hit him, has an axe to grind. Latham says it was the other way round, that it was he who was king hit. How could Latham, a young man at the time, king hit an old guy, and the old guy then able to then punch and knock Latham down?

Man, I've been to bachelor parties.. haven't you? Including "sick" things as you say, but that's relative, and what happened at a private bachelor party is none of your business, and turned out to be all hearsay rubbish.

I've been researching the central banks for a long time. I have documents of the history of Australia's monetry system from 1788, through the Commonwealth Bank Act, up to today. The Reserve bank is a private organisation, and you can read that on their own website, let alone a hundred and one other sites.

I wish you would read what I actually wrote and not what you assume I mean. (You can't even read the Act that you're pasting from).

I didn't say school funding hasn't been increased. The answer to the quote of mine you gave, is on another tangent. Private schools are being given public money. Doesn't that seem wrong to you? And if that doesn't on its own, that they are getting more funding than the public schools should.

The ALP and Coalition will agree to bills that are in the interests of the Illuminati agenda. It's always the case. They'll argue over little parts of it, so as to seem like there's a real debate, but the bill will be passed, as the Free Trade agreement was.

You think shows like A Current Affair, 60 Minutes and Today Tonight are quality journalism? Now, that's a joke. They are pretty mouthpiece actors reading auto-cues and that's all they can really do.

Again, read what I wrote, not what you assume I mean. I said Crown Land, not privately owned land. Your comments such as "AB's money", "They don't know how to manage money!", "we would be bankrupt and no-one would be interested in us" are racist and disgust me. And I believe the Aboriginal flag can and does represent all Australians. A lot more than the English flag does at least - that just reminds us of English rule, murder and tyranny.

Cheers.



posted on Aug, 25 2004 @ 10:19 AM
link   

Originally posted by upuaut

Originally posted by Ezekial
As for Howard, It's not his place to say sorry, he didn''t do anything.



Come on.
Howard is the prime minister, right? Doesn't that make him a representative of this nation? Since when is being the most prominent representative of your nation about your responsabilities as an individual and nothing else?



An official apology wouldn't change anything for the time being. All it allows them, is a possible future legal right to sue the government ( ie. me and every other tax payer ).
ATSIC recieved 400 million apologies last year.

PS. What was Geoff Clark doing as Chairman of ATSIC, he looks like he should be fighting alongside braveheart
I would have thought that ATSIC should've been chaired by pure blood aboriginals and not Scotsmen.



posted on Aug, 25 2004 @ 10:33 AM
link   
wow after reading that article on the site I'm quite shocked. I would like more details though like what exactly did a Member of the Fascist New Guard involve? I find it fascinating and strengthening to the NWO theory that Arnold, Howard (if proven true), Bush, and probably others all have nazi links and are all key players of power in the world.



posted on Aug, 25 2004 @ 10:36 AM
link   
mad scientist, i assume by "tax payer" you mean income-tax, as everybody pays tax in some sort of way, whether it's tax on alcohol, cigarettes, petrol, bank accounts or GST.

and am i right to assume that you believe the government only represents current income-tax payers? and that public assets only belong to current income -tax payers? if i become unemployed i am then somehow a second-class citizen or something? or if i was a multi-millionaire and avoid paying income-tax through accounting tricks?



new topics

top topics



 
0
<< 1   >>

log in

join