The best Dogfighting aircraft: SU-37 * F-35 * Rafale * Eurofighter * Gripen *

What is the The best Dogfighting aircraft at the moment: SU-37 * F-35 * Rafale * Eurofighter * Gripen *

I think there is no real leader because every plane has got it's own benefits. The F-35 must the stealthy one and maybe gots one of the best raders. While the SU-37(not for export, shame!) has still got the best areodynamic design. www.maks.ru... The smaller planes like the Gripen, Rafale and the Eurofighter also will be rewarded in dogfighting in the future!

Dogfight:
1 SU-37
2 F-22
3 Rafale

Ground attack:
1 F-35
2 F15
3 SU-25

Let me know what you think???

PS My country also is involved with producing the F-22 and F-35, they bought 180 JSF aircraft for the next 10 years. The Royal Netherlands Airforce is still proud to be part of the deal! Let's hope it will be a wothy deal???

PS Do you guys also looking forward to Ace Combat 5 or sims at the PS3?



[edit on 18-8-2004 by snowcat]

[edit on 19-8-2004 by snowcat]

Someone posted a table on here recently (sorry I cant remember which thread) which showed that the Typhoon is bested only by the Raptor in A2A Combat.

You have the F-35 at No 2 but it is mainly an attack type to replace the Harrier with some A2A ability but the Typhoon is better than all those three.

In attack you name the Su 37 when I believe the Su-32FN is the dedicated attack Flanker,
Also the F-15 is an air superiority fighter, in the attack role it is more of a 'make do' effort so hardly rates highly. One aircraft you didn't m,ention is the Tornado which, in its IDS guise, is easily the best ground attack aircraft in the world, it has low level ride and gust response that an F-15E pilot would die for!

I couldn't say whether the Su-25 is better than the A-10 but I suppose it could well be.

You are as entitled to your opinion as I am mine however so my choices would be

Dogfight;

1 Raptor
2 Typhoon F2
3 Su-47

Attack;

1 Tornado GR4
2 F-35B
3 Su-32FN

[edit on 18-8-2004 by waynos]

there you go

Air Power

I keep seeing this plane being referred to as if it is particularly new (it isn't; according to what I can make out it first flew in sept 1997 www.hudi1.republika.pl........

.....although one source talks about the earlier Su 27/30 derived model, the thrust vectoring test plane, which was also confusingly referred to as an Su 37 first flying in april 1996 www.airforce-technology.com...).....

.... and about to start volume production to equip the Russian and Chinese airforces. I can find no actual reference beyond this aircraft being 'marketed' to the Russian airforce following the name change in 2002 to Su47 www.flymig.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.flymig.com.......

....in fact one source claims it is not going to be bothered with at all www.aiaa.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.aiaa.org... and that a new design without the FSW is likely to appear.

....in any case look at it. I mean it's a nice looker and all but I see little more that a heavily ram coated F15 with FSW and vectored jet exhausts and without the FSW it looks like a cross between an Su30 and a flattened F15.

So, how come the Barkut is such a bogey round this site?

How can you call something a dogfight when your turning radius is half the state of Wyoming!! THERE HAVE BEEN NO DOGFIGHTS SINCE THE KOREAN WAR!

If I get this wrong I'm sure someone will tell me but the Su-37 was the canard T-V fighter while the Su-47 is the (intended) service variant of the S-37, which is the Berkut and nothing to do with the Su-37.

Theres no Russain planes on that graph You think since most countries that buy the Euro fighter will be going up against Migs they would put it on the Graph.

Dogfight

1.SU-47
2.F-22
3.Euro fighter

I put the F-22 behind the Su-47 because its a dog fight which is close and nasty with guns. which a F-22 shouldnt be in in the first place. Its stealth should have let it have the kill before the SU-47 even knew it was there. Plus the wing design of the SU-47 let it take tighter turns so in a gun fight it might have the upper hand.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by ShadowXIX]

Dogfighters -

F 22 (I can't believe it's as useless at comat manoeuvre as claimed)

Typhoon 2

Grippen

Ground attack -

Tornado GR4

Typhoon 2.....actually that should be a F35 I suppose!

Suhkoi Su 32....er.....um...!



[edit on 18-8-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Theres no Russain planes on that graph

You think since most countries that buy the Euro fighter will be going up against Migs they would put it on the Graph.

- If they aren't going to be buying the Russian aircraft why would they waste time putting it on the graph in place of a potential sales rival's 'slot'?

Originally posted by groingrinder
How can you call something a dogfight when your turning radius is half the state of Wyoming!! THERE HAVE BEEN NO DOGFIGHTS SINCE THE KOREAN WAR!

Except for the ones between the British FAA and the Argentinian FAA in 1982. Of course

There will ALWAYS exist the possibility, if not the probability, of opposing aircraft getting close enough to engage in a turning fight however good the technology gets, this is a lesson history.

I have already posted here about the F-22 angle of attack ability. It is able to achieve sustained angleof attack of 60 degrees. The best Sukhoi's (Su-37, 47) have only about 41, Eurofighter and Su-30 about 30 degrees. I don't know why are the people still thinking that the F-22 is not able in close fight. It is not that expensive because of only stealth, it was also designed to be most maneuvrable fighter. If you don't believe me just try search on Google F-22+angle of attack.

Originally posted by longbow
It is not that expensive because of only stealth, it was also designed to be most maneuvrable fighter. If you don't believe me just try search on Google F-22+angle of attack.

Agreed about the agility of the F-22, but the whole point of its stealth and LPI ESA and BVR missiles is to pop the opposing fighter without a dogfight. Its not a production aircraft, but the SU-47 may have the edge on close in manuverability though.

Originally posted by longbow
I have already posted here about the F-22 angle of attack ability. It is able to achieve sustained angleof attack of 60 degrees.

The best Sukhoi's (Su-37, 47) have only about 41,

Su-30 about 30 degrees

GEEZZZ!!!! YOU MUST BE KIDDING....

i have video in russian. they say SU-47 HAS UNLIMITED AoA

also, Su-30MK was pulling and holding 75 degrees AoA at one of airshows in moscov


and, about f-22 60* AoA. you should expect that from gen5 airplane

Originally posted by waynos
Someone posted a table on here recently (sorry I cant remember which thread) which showed that the Typhoon is bested only by the Raptor in A2A Combat.

Heres a table showing the results of 'The DERA Study' where Western fighters were put up a simulated threat of one Su-35.

from here
F/A-22 Raptor -- 10.1 : 1
Typhoon ---------- 4.5 : 1
Rafale ------------- 1.0 : 1
Su-35 ------------- 1.0 : 1
F-15C ------------- 0.8 : 1
F/A-18+ ---------- 0.4 : 1
F/A-18C ---------- 0.3 : 1
F-16C ------------- 0.3 : 1

These results mean, for example, that in simulated combat, 4.5 Su-35s were shot down for every Typhoon lost.

The EF2000 is agile and fast with the potential to be a great dogfighter (if the MOD decide to buy cannons).

Su-37 would definitely be a better dogfighter than the Eurofighter and the Rafale, because of its TVC and with maneuvers like the Super Cobra it has pretty much unlimited AOA.

That table you're showing is Air to Air combat not dogfighting, (although no one dogfights these days) but in dogfighting the Su-37 would dominate because of its superior maneuverbility, because Radar and BVR missiles and stealth would be out of the factors.

Originally posted by Michael784
Su-37 would definitely be a better dogfighter than the Eurofighter and the Rafale, because of its TVC and with maneuvers like the Super Cobra it has pretty much unlimited AOA.

In a real turning fight that would just make it a sitting duck. High energy is the name of tyhe game in a turning fight and for high speed, high energy manoevering, as has been said its the Raptor first and the Typhoon second. The Su-47 may change that but the Su-37 does not

Originally posted by Michael784
Su-37 would definitely be a better dogfighter than the Eurofighter and the Rafale, because of its TVC and with maneuvers like the Super Cobra it has pretty much unlimited AOA.

No doubt that the Super Cobra and Cobra looks real cool at airshows (I maintain that the Russians put on the best displays) how usefull are those manuvers in a real dog fight? Even with its awesum thrust, it takes time for a Su-37 to recover energy from it. As it recovers its meat for the opfor's wingman. To my knowledge no one has used a corbra in a combat situation for that reason.

Before we go off on that tangent, there is an active thread on the Cobra
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 18-8-2004 by FredT]

Originally posted by FredT
No doubt that the Super Cobra and Cobra looks real cool at airshows (I maintain that the Russians put on the best displays) how usefull are those manuvers in a real dog fight?

forget about cobras, leave them for show-time


forward swept wings on su-47 increase aerodynamic
characteristics (that includes maneuverability) by 3 TIMES!!!
(source: video in russian about Su-47 Berkut)



try moving a paper through air, backwards.... see my point?

there no better dogfighter than Su-47

edit: also, su-47 pilots seat is inclined by 60 degrees, which allows pilot to hold much more G's for much longer time, a must in a dogfight.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by titus]

Su-47 would have the advantage in pure dogfighting (by that I mean just guns)

then F-22, EF, ect ect.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by American Mad Man]

Originally posted by titus
forward swept wings on su-47 increase aerodynamic
characteristics (that includes maneuverability) by 3 TIMES!!!

That sounds like a large increase but you could be right. It's also a distinct advantage with "carnard fighters" too.

If they can get the Berkut flying reliably it will be a formidable fighter, but unstable fighters like EF, Rafale, F-22, Berkut.. need awesone fly-by-wire to keep them in the air, something the Russians are far behind in.