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The best Dogfighting aircraft: SU-37 * F-35 * Rafale * Eurofighter * Gripen *

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posted on Sep, 4 2004 @ 06:22 PM
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From the RAF website about the Jaguar;

"The RAF's Jaguar fleet has recently undergone a major upgrade programme and been designated as the Jaguar GR3 (or T4 for the 2-seat version). The upgrade included improved avionics including Global Positioning System (GPS) and Terrain-Referenced Navigation (TRN) , Night Vision Goggles (NVG) compatible lighting (both internally and externally), helmet-mounted sight and ASRAAM capability, and new Head-Up and Head-Down Displays in the cockpit.

Why would you put your money on the AIM 120D over the Meteor anyway? AIM 120D is cheaper than Meteor and it was offered to the UK, indeed Clinton put a great deal of pressure on the UK to take it, so why would we refuse a cheaper better missile?

"

Now your assertion about there being no plans yet for a HMS in Typhoon is just plain wrong. Look on ANY Typhoon website and you will see it mentioned in every one. It is key to the ASRAAM's all aspect capabilityand one of the cornerstones of the Avionics aspect of the programme. A quote in the AFM report on the aircrafts entry to service states that "only the RAF version will be fully capable....". I don't know in what respect this means but maybe the other nations aren't having the HMS and this is what you have seen???

[edit on 4-9-2004 by waynos]




posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by waynos
From the RAF website about the Jaguar;

"The RAF's Jaguar fleet has recently undergone a major upgrade programme and been designated as the Jaguar GR3 (or T4 for the 2-seat version). The upgrade included improved avionics including Global Positioning System (GPS) and Terrain-Referenced Navigation (TRN) , Night Vision Goggles (NVG) compatible lighting (both internally and externally), helmet-mounted sight and ASRAAM capability, and new Head-Up and Head-Down Displays in the cockpit.

Why would you put your money on the AIM 120D over the Meteor anyway? AIM 120D is cheaper than Meteor and it was offered to the UK, indeed Clinton put a great deal of pressure on the UK to take it, so why would we refuse a cheaper better missile?

"

Now your assertion about there being no plans yet for a HMS in Typhoon is just plain wrong. Look on ANY Typhoon website and you will see it mentioned in every one. It is key to the ASRAAM's all aspect capabilityand one of the cornerstones of the Avionics aspect of the programme. A quote in the AFM report on the aircrafts entry to service states that "only the RAF version will be fully capable....". I don't know in what respect this means but maybe the other nations aren't having the HMS and this is what you have seen???

[edit on 4-9-2004 by waynos]


The simple reason, to keep defense contractors in Europe in business

And all I'm saying is that i'd put my money on the US missile, simply because of better track records, the European Consourtium has had a history of lackluster efforts.

By the way, I wouldn't use the Eurofighter main site or it's fan sites as an accurate source for unbiased information, same goes for pretty much anything else.

[edit on 5-9-2004 by Hockeyguy567]



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 01:46 PM
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Originally posted by Laxpla
EF last because it has no guns.


Is that true? If it is the EF goes to the bottom of my list of dog fighters. People may say there is no more dog fights but that doesnt stop most of the people from putting guns on fighters.

People in the military still have bayonets why? Not because they will do bayonet charges, but in the unlikely case that they need a bayonet they will have one. It the same with a gun on a moderen fighter plane. Is a dog fight likely probablly not. But could it happen you better but your a$$ and in the event it does the guy with the gun will win.

A dogfight is like two guys fighting in a phone booth one guy has a long spear (thats a missile) another guy has a small dagger (thats a gun) who will win this fight?

[edit on 5-9-2004 by ShadowXIX]



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Is that true? If it is the EF goes to the bottom of my list of dog fighters. People may say there is no more dog fights but that doesnt stop most of the people from putting guns on fighters.


Christ, you think that they would have learned from the USAF in Vietnam. WTF good is it in a dog fight? ASRAM my butt, Give me a vulcan close in



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 02:45 PM
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Hey hold on here people, the EF has a gun, it just can't be used



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by Hockeyguy567
By the way, I wouldn't use the Eurofighter main site or it's fan sites as an accurate source for unbiased information, same goes for pretty much anything else.



And yet you seem to be perfectly willing to accept 'anti' Eurofighter sentiments as gospel?

It is a well known fact that there is a great deal of false negativity put out about advanced programmes like the Eurofighter Typhoon which its opponents, or people with a vested interest in its rivals, seize upon. You don't really get a fair and unbiased viewpoint from any site as the people who input the information all have their own opinions and prejudices, the trick is to read them all and make your own mind up.

The Royal Air Force does not operate 'fan sites' anyway.



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by waynos

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567
By the way, I wouldn't use the Eurofighter main site or it's fan sites as an accurate source for unbiased information, same goes for pretty much anything else.



And yet you seem to be perfectly willing to accept 'anti' Eurofighter sentiments as gospel?

It is a well known fact that there is a great deal of false negativity put out about advanced programmes like the Eurofighter Typhoon which its opponents, or people with a vested interest in its rivals, seize upon. You don't really get a fair and unbiased viewpoint from any site as the people who input the information all have their own opinions and prejudices, the trick is to read them all and make your own mind up.

The Royal Air Force does not operate 'fan sites' anyway.


Wrong, I get my information from Jane's and Aviation Weekly, and I think those 2 are the best source for fighter aircraft.

And come on waynos, i'm not gonna believe EVERYTHING, I look into it. Hey bud just a little disagreement, I don't want this one going out of hand ok.


[edit on 5-9-2004 by Hockeyguy567]



posted on Sep, 5 2004 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man
Hey hold on here people, the EF has a gun, it just can't be used

oh ha ha very funny considering it has a gun. it can be used just that the british government doesnt want it, the self proclaimed military exsperts know best compared to the RAF.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 12:04 PM
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no worries hockey guy, I've enjoyed this debate, I hope I'm not one for letting things get OTT like some threads we have seen recently


I know you rate the Typhoon, I just believe that some of the problems are overstated. BTW my favourite sources of info are Flight International. AIR International and AFM.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Hey hold on here people, the EF has a gun, it just can't be used

oh ha ha very funny considering it has a gun. it can be used just that the british government doesnt want it, the self proclaimed military exsperts know best compared to the RAF.


Are you saying it can be used without amo? Are you saying the RAF would really rather not have it then have it?

Gimme a break, the fact is that it was a stupid decision, they should spend the extra million and get the ammo and then I'd have nothing to laugh about.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by waynos
no worries hockey guy, I've enjoyed this debate, I hope I'm not one for letting things get OTT like some threads we have seen recently


I know you rate the Typhoon, I just believe that some of the problems are overstated. BTW my favourite sources of info are Flight International. AIR International and AFM.


Yea, I'm really am not in the mood now to get into a heated argument. Hopefully the Eurofighter's problems can be worked out, but the political leaders need to put more effort into it. But unfortunatley we won't know for about 6 or 7 years, same goes for the F-22 and F-35 programs as well.



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 03:23 PM
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www.canit.se...

"A unique feature is the coupling of the radar gunsighting mode to the autopilot, introduced with Edit 32. When the pilot places a target in a capture window, the autopilot takes over pitch and yaw, and presents bank information on the HUD for the pilot to follow. Even if it's not followed, the pitch and yaw channels have enough authority to precision aim the cannon, reducing pilot workload letting him or her concentrate on tactics and situational awareness. "

I have not even seen this in a game simulator... Or have I missed it?



posted on Sep, 6 2004 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man


Are you saying it can be used without amo? Are you saying the RAF would really rather not have it then have it?

Gimme a break, the fact is that it was a stupid decision, they should spend the extra million and get the ammo and then I'd have nothing to laugh about.

no im saying it can be used it just doesnt have any ammo. also it is a political decision not military. i could say the same about the YF-23 that was the superior aircraft yet it was scrapped by damm polititions. damm them to hell and back!!



posted on Sep, 12 2004 @ 01:04 AM
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Dogfights don't happen now days with advanced fighters. the Raptor would kill anything in the sky before they even get detect the raptor let alone get in dogfighting range. Also I am surprised that the F-15 with its 101-0 A2A record is not on the top 3 do gfighting aircrafts. I think it should be on there.



posted on Sep, 12 2004 @ 05:12 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
Dogfights don't happen now days with advanced fighters. the Raptor would kill anything in the sky before they even get detect the raptor let alone get in dogfighting range. Also I am surprised that the F-15 with its 101-0 A2A record is not on the top 3 do gfighting aircrafts. I think it should be on there.

yeah thats any aircraft except the YF23
also i think he meant the best dog fighters that he named, not the f-15.
also i dont think it has got into a dogfight because it can kill things at long range.



posted on Sep, 12 2004 @ 12:50 PM
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Just because a fighter can easily kill planes long range doesnot mean that it should not have a gun or not be able to dogfight. In Vietnam NVAf used to put a single mig-21 on a dirt path, put rockets on it, snd then wait. When a strike package aproached, the Migs waited until it was right over head and then took off. It easily got in too close for the f-4's missiles and without a gun the mig was able to pick off a few and then return to base. that is why the F/A-22 has a gun incase teh enemy somehow manages to sneak in close it can still kick but, and thats why the EF is the worst dogfighter untill it can use its gun.



posted on Sep, 12 2004 @ 12:54 PM
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But Roniii, this discussion seems to have forgotten that its not "The Eurofighter" that cannot use its gun, only the RAF's( BOO! HISS!:flame
But at least even that is a dropped bollock which can easily be picked up again



posted on Sep, 12 2004 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by roniii259
Just because a fighter can easily kill planes long range doesnot mean that it should not have a gun or not be able to dogfight. In Vietnam NVAf used to put a single mig-21 on a dirt path, put rockets on it, snd then wait. When a strike package aproached, the Migs waited until it was right over head and then took off. It easily got in too close for the f-4's missiles and without a gun the mig was able to pick off a few and then return to base. that is why the F/A-22 has a gun incase teh enemy somehow manages to sneak in close it can still kick but, and thats why the EF is the worst dogfighter untill it can use its gun.


I wouldn't rate it at the worst, or even close, but the RAF's Typhoon's need guns. However, without a gun, I would leave it off the top 3.

[edit on 12-9-2004 by Hockeyguy567]

[edit on 12-9-2004 by Hockeyguy567]



posted on Sep, 12 2004 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by roniii259
, and thats why the EF is the worst dogfighter untill it can use its gun.


I agree that now it seems only the British one cant use its gun, sorry about tthe mistake

However without itts gun I still think its the worst dogfighter. Maybe great interceptor, but ht worst dogfighter. With the gun Its the second best, after the Raptor (no offense but I just love the duck and cant wait till Langley gets it)
Does the EF use the Mausser Cannon or the old M61?



posted on Sep, 12 2004 @ 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by roniii259

Originally posted by roniii259
, and thats why the EF is the worst dogfighter untill it can use its gun.


I agree that now it seems only the British one cant use its gun, sorry about tthe mistake

However without itts gun I still think its the worst dogfighter. Maybe great interceptor, but ht worst dogfighter. With the gun Its the second best, after the Raptor (no offense but I just love the duck and cant wait till Langley gets it)
Does the EF use the Mausser Cannon or the old M61?


It uses the Mauser.

And for second best close in dogfighter, it could either be the EF, Rafale, or the SH, we'll have to wait and see, and if the F-35A and F-35C get the 3D axisymmetric thrust-vectoring nozzle, then I would place it above the other 3.



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