To kill a Zionist

Lets say Israel attacks Iran (very plausible scenario) and Iran blocks the strait of hormuz (in which they have threatened to do). This would trigger the collapse of the worlds economy; America would be hit hardest of all.

In this scenario, with people losing their jobs, homes, not having enough food to eat or a means to take care of their loved ones, not getting their medications (an especially serious scenario since about 1/3rd of the American people are on some sort of psychotropic drug), an increase in violence, an increase in suicide, and an increase in crime.An increase in irrationality and chaos, in short. How serious would be the hate felt towards Jews? Zionists especially?

This is a serious question because such a scenario looms ahead of us. How difficult would it really be for a casual or political anti-zionism to turn into "the Jews really ARE behind the woes of the world"??. I imagine people would become increasingly sympathetic - given the lows they would have fallen to - with Hitlers extermination agenda for the Jews. Already there are many who are brazen enough to say this.

So... Would Jews be in danger if such a scenario were to occur?? Can you see "killing zionists" to become a popular sentiment?

I do. One almost wonders if this is being engineered.

As of 2009, there are 6,544,000 American Jews.

What is it about the number 6 million?

In short, to answer your question: no. They have far too much support from the US and the EU, all of whome are looking at Iran and frowning.

I would ask, what evidence do you have that Israel attacking Iran is likely?

Where is your evidence that this event would collapse the worlds economy?

I think this is speculation at best.

Originally posted by AtlantisX99
In short, to answer your question: no. They have far too much support from the US and the EU, all of whome are looking at Iran and frowning.

I would ask, what evidence do you have that Israel attacking Iran is likely?

Where is your evidence that this event would collapse the worlds economy?

I think this is speculation at best.

A high ranking government official of Israel urged allied nations to take up arms against Iran. This was months ago.

I'm sure this desire has not wound down.

Found it: news.antiwar.com...

reply to post by AtlantisX99

I would ask, what evidence do you have that Israel attacking Iran is likely?

This is from just 8 hours ago
www.worldtribune.com... 05.asp

3 days ago

IAF Generals 'Loudly' Demanding Strike on Iran

Where is your evidence that this event would collapse the worlds economy?

Read this

The economic ramifcations of Irans closing the strait of Hormuz would be staggering. Hence why they are using this as a threat.

40% of the world's seaborne oil shipments, and 20% of all world oil shipments pass through the strait of Hormuz

They have far too much support from the US and the EU, all of whome are looking at Iran and frowning.

That is the geo-political aspect of the situation. Does that change facts on the ground? If the economy collapses, people WOULD undoubtedly connect their own misfortunes with Israels behavior. It would be because of Israel, and a "zionist conspiracy", that they are now sufferring.

Its not hard to see how this would happen.

I think this is speculation at best

Hence i posted it in the Skunk forum - highly speculative topics.

Originally posted by EmVeeFF

Originally posted by AtlantisX99
In short, to answer your question: no. They have far too much support from the US and the EU, all of whome are looking at Iran and frowning.

I would ask, what evidence do you have that Israel attacking Iran is likely?

Where is your evidence that this event would collapse the worlds economy?

I think this is speculation at best.

A high ranking government official of Israel urged allied nations to take up arms against Iran. This was months ago.

I'm sure this desire has not wound down.

Found it: news.antiwar.com...

Props to you sir for actually putting up a link and your right, what was said in that link was said months ago, however, if you read it:

In the interview he calls on the “entire civilized world” to join in the attack because Iran is “a threat to the entire civilized world."

Which is evidence of Israel asked 'the entire civilized world" to attack Iran, not that Israel are planning to attack Iran. But if thats not enough for you, from the same article which underpins how unlikely it is that Israel, by themselves, are going to attack Iran:

Ya’alon has been calling for attacks on Iran off and on for several years, saying that talks with Iran were doomed to failure and only a military attack was an option.

That's right, several years. In other words, Israel will not do it by themselves. I stated that Israel has massive support from the US and the EU which is why I do not believe that "killing zionists" will become a popular sentiment, as per the OP's statement and this article actually supports my argument that there is no evidence of a probable attack on Iran by Israel.

So I think its fair to say my original two questions stand unanswered

reply to post by AtlantisX99


So your basing that idea on a "few years". 3 or 4 years. You dont think Israel will do it, because theyve been waiting patiently in the mean time??? I guess you dont understand psychology very much. Pressure builds, and when critical mass is hit, or if Israel recieves "new information" of an impending attack, dont think they will wait for US approval. It can very well happen without it.

Read the article i linked for you.

It essentially says its a battle between the IAF and Mossad. Mossad wants to do it their way ie; assasinations of key figures. IAF however wants a full-blown attack on their nuclear facilities.

The issue is a little more complex than simply Israel being a proxy for America or Europe (EU in general has a cold relationship with Israel). Israel has its own agenda; and increasingly, America under Obamas leadership has been moving farther and farther away from their historical friendship.

As for "both my questions". I dont think you bothered looking at my answer. How would the economy collapse? Why would Iran block the strait of Hormuz? Read my post and find out.

If youre going to reply to somebody, have the respect to reply to their post, and not someone elses.

reply to post by dontreally


Israel certainly won't go it alone and would rather some one else launch the initial attack also..

But yes, many some would blame all Jews and many would blame all Zionists..

And why not when you consider ALL Muslims are blamed for the acts of a few and even many of those "supposed" acts are suss at best..

reply to post by AtlantisX99


Do some history research about Israel and their airstrike against an Iraqi nuclear facility before they invaded Kuwait and started the Gulf War. Israel is more than capable and more than ready to launch a strike against Iran.
They believe in pre-emptive strikes rather than wait to get attack. If Israel was pushed to that point they would absolutley fight alone, anyone remember the 6-day war? Israel fought just about every country in the region and wiped the floor with them. They will fight alone if they have to.

If someone was holding a gun to you would you wait for them to pull the trigger before drawing your own?

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by AtlantisX99

 

I would ask, what evidence do you have that Israel attacking Iran is likely?

This is from just 8 hours ago
www.worldtribune.com... 05.asp

3 days ago

IAF Generals 'Loudly' Demanding Strike on Iran

Where is your evidence that this event would collapse the worlds economy?

Read this

The economic ramifcations of Irans closing the strait of Hormuz would be staggering. Hence why they are using this as a threat.

40% of the world's seaborne oil shipments, and 20% of all world oil shipments pass through the strait of Hormuz

They have far too much support from the US and the EU, all of whome are looking at Iran and frowning.

That is the geo-political aspect of the situation. Does that change facts on the ground? If the economy collapses, people WOULD undoubtedly connect their own misfortunes with Israels behavior. It would be because of Israel, and a "zionist conspiracy", that they are now sufferring.

Its not hard to see how this would happen.

I think this is speculation at best

Hence i posted it in the Skunk forum - highly speculative topics.

Thats more like it! Would have been better to put this in your original post though

First link? Doesnt work

Second link, Fair enough, they are stating that their clandestine operations are not delivering the reults that they would like, but like I have said before, offers no evidence that they would attack by themselves.

Third link, if you read the article it is pretty much a carbon copy of the second link.

Fourth article, did you read it?

A former CIA Middle East analyst and a scholar at the Brookings Institution, Kenneth Pollack, said he believed that Iran's threats to close the Strait of Hormuz were "hollow." "In a no-holds-barred fight with the United States Navy and Air Force, Iran might be able to inflict some painful losses, but its doom would be certain." Mr. Pollack added: "In the interim, Iran might be able to frighten commercial traffic away from the straits for a matter of days or even a few weeks. It might also take down an American warship or two. However, neither would be likely to have a lasting impact on global oil supplies or the overall military balance. And in the end, Iran's military capacities would be crippled."

In other words, Iran couldn't close the strait of Hormuz long enough to cause your so called global ecenomic collapse 'flight of fancy' and YES it IS very hard to see it happening, impossible in fact.

IF and I mean IF Iran are stupid enough to close the Strait of Hormuz, the US will attack with the EU in tow; Israel will get what it wants but everyone will be condemning Iran, not Israel or Zionists, leading me back full circle to NO! killing Zionists will never become a popular sentiment!!

As for you having posted it in skunk works because its highly speculative? Props, you got something right

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by AtlantisX99

 

So your basing that idea on a "few years". 3 or 4 years. You dont think Israel will do it, because theyve been waiting patiently in the mean time??? I guess you dont understand psychology very much. Pressure builds, and when critical mass is hit, or if Israel recieves "new information" of an impending attack, dont think they will wait for US approval. It can very well happen without it.

Read the article i linked for you.

It essentially says its a battle between the IAF and Mossad. Mossad wants to do it their way ie; assasinations of key figures. IAF however wants a full-blown attack on their nuclear facilities.

The issue is a little more complex than simply Israel being a proxy for America or Europe (EU in general has a cold relationship with Israel). Israel has its own agenda; and increasingly, America under Obamas leadership has been moving farther and farther away from their historical friendship.

As for "both my questions". I dont think you bothered looking at my answer. How would the economy collapse? Why would Iran block the strait of Hormuz? Read my post and find out.

If youre going to reply to somebody, have the respect to reply to their post, and not someone elses.

I did reply to your post, but unlike yourself, I took the time to read the information you posted for me

reply to post by backinblack


First, not everyone - especially liberals, which would mean most people - blames "all muslims".. But as a matter of fact, there is justifiable reason to be suspicious of some schools of Islam (both in sunni and Shi'te) because of their beliefs that Islam is destined to take over the world.

Because Islam has historically taught this, and ruthlessly enforced it (ask Hindus, Copts, Armenian Christians, Jews, Russian Orthodox, Kurds etc what its like to deal with Muslims) there is a rational reason to look into it.

However. Israel is a country. American Jews live in America because they prefer America. Not all American Jews are sympathetic of Zionism, and even if they are, they are simply sympathetic towards a national cause. Really not much different from any other form of nationalism.

It has nothing to do with religion, as Islam/Muslims do. A Jew can be religious, or completely secular, or somewhere in between.

Though i am glad you admit to this common sense. Jews/Zionists would be blamed, and historically speaking, Jew hatred comes very naturally to people. We have an ancestoral meme, so to say, of disliking Jews.

Originally posted by StratosFear
reply to post by AtlantisX99

 

Do some history research about Israel and their airstrike against an Iraqi nuclear facility before they invaded Kuwait and started the Gulf War. Israel is more than capable and more than ready to launch a strike against Iran.
They believe in pre-emptive strikes rather than wait to get attack. If Israel was pushed to that point they would absolutley fight alone, anyone remember the 6-day war? Israel fought just about every country in the region and wiped the floor with them. They will fight alone if they have to.

If someone was holding a gun to you would you wait for them to pull the trigger before drawing your own?

edit on 5-8-2011 by StratosFear because: (no reason given)

Your right and I remeber it well and the trouble they got into with their allies for doing it. I also know about the 6 day war, which was back in 1967 prior to them applying to being part of the EU and before they had such strong ties with the US. I am not saying they are not capable, far from it, I just think that they are much too clever to go about it by themselves when there is so much focus on Iran by the US and the EU. I DO believe that they are trying to encourage the rest of the world to take action, as per the articles, but that is not the same as planning a solo attack themselves.

And in response to your comment "If someone was holding a gun to you would you wait for them to pull the trigger before drawing your own?" I would do the same as Israel are doing and remind Iran that they have friends with much bigger guns.

reply to post by dontreally

I do. One almost wonders if this is being engineered.

Yes! - It is beyond obvious that Israel has been re-created armed to the teeth and financed all of these yrs for one purpose - to destroy Islam with it's Sampson option, it is why they installed the Wahabbis in Saudi and the 12' vers in Iran. When all of this goes down it will collapse Europe into jihadi civil war as well.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by backinblack

 

First, not everyone - especially liberals, which would mean most people - blames "all muslims".. But as a matter of fact, there is justifiable reason to be suspicious of some schools of Islam (both in sunni and Shi'te) because of their beliefs that Islam is destined to take over the world.

Because Islam has historically taught this, and ruthlessly enforced it (ask Hindus, Copts, Armenian Christians, Jews, Russian Orthodox, Kurds etc what its like to deal with Muslims) there is a rational reason to look into it.

However. Israel is a country. American Jews live in America because they prefer America. Not all American Jews are sympathetic of Zionism, and even if they are, they are simply sympathetic towards a national cause. Really not much different from any other form of nationalism.

It has nothing to do with religion, as Islam/Muslims do. A Jew can be religious, or completely secular, or somewhere in between.

Though i am glad you admit to this common sense. Jews/Zionists would be blamed, and historically speaking, Jew hatred comes very naturally to people. We have an ancestoral meme, so to say, of disliking Jews.

I agree wholeheartedly; however I would argue that the Jew hatred is much less prominent now than Muslim hatred. I personally have no reason to hate either, but I can understand that others have their reasons too. Quite frankly it is no different to the catholic / protestant hatred going on today in Ireland; its just a larger stage.

reply to post by AtlantisX99

In other words, Iran couldn't close the strait of Hormuz long enough to cause your so called global ecenomic collapse 'flight of fancy' and YES it IS very hard to see it happening, impossible in fact. IF and I mean IF Iran are stupid enough to close the Strait of Hormuz, the US will attack with the EU in tow; Israel will get what it wants but everyone will be condemning Iran, not Israel or Zionists, leading me back full circle to NO! killing Zionists will never become a popular sentiment!! As for you having posted it in skunk works because its highly speculative? Props, you got something right

So its "impossible" now?? Wow. Ok.

So because one analyst said Iran wouldnt have the balls to do it - which they have threatened to do, it is "impossible", as in "Not able to occur, exist, or be done". Seems like a gross exagerration.

I think Iran would do it, especially when you take into regard the religious messianism of its leader Mahmoud Ahmadinejad



According to Islamic Eschatology, the 12th imam can only arrive in a state of Chaos. A chaos Mahmoud Ahmadinjad would be happy to help create.

Before his coming will come the red death and the white death. The red death is the sword and the white death is plague.

You can hardly blame Muslims for thinking that today is the generation in which the Imam will return.

• The Muslims will throw off the reins and take possession of their land, throwing out the authority of the foreigners.
  
  This sort of reminds me of the "Arab Spring".
  
  
• There will be a great conflict in the land of Syria, until it is destroyed.
  
• Death and fear will afflict the people of Baghdad and Iraq. A fire will appear in the sky and a redness will cover them.
  
  
  

  
  
  IF and I mean IF Iran are stupid enough to close the Strait of Hormuz, the US will attack with the EU in tow; Israel will get what it wants but everyone will be condemning Iran, not Israel or Zionists, leading me back full circle to NO! killing Zionists will never become a popular sentiment!!
  

  
  
  I find most users at this site to be anti-Israel and NOT anti-Iran. Although i do think there will exist two different factions. Liberals/Democrats, Israel bashers, anti-semites, Arabs/Muslims, all those who already show an avid or moderate anti-zionism will turn into rabid Jew haters.
  
  Some on the outskirts of such sentiment will probably fall in with that mentality.
  
  Others, Republicans, Evangelical christians, will probably side with Jews and Israel. And so will blame the economic fallout of Israels attack, on Iran - for blocking the strait.
  
  In anycase, how would you feel? If Israel attacked Iran - an idea already very unpopular amongst liberals and conspiracy theorists, wouldnt it make sense to blame Israel, and NOT Iran? Afterall, Iran would merely be keeping true to their original threat.
  
  edit on 5-8-2011 by dontreally because: (no reason given)
  

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by AtlantisX99

 

In other words, Iran couldn't close the strait of Hormuz long enough to cause your so called global ecenomic collapse 'flight of fancy' and YES it IS very hard to see it happening, impossible in fact. IF and I mean IF Iran are stupid enough to close the Strait of Hormuz, the US will attack with the EU in tow; Israel will get what it wants but everyone will be condemning Iran, not Israel or Zionists, leading me back full circle to NO! killing Zionists will never become a popular sentiment!! As for you having posted it in skunk works because its highly speculative? Props, you got something right

So its "impossible" now?? Wow. Ok.

So because one analyst said Iran wouldnt have the balls to do it - which they have threatened to do, it is "impossible", as in "Not able to occur, exist, or be done". Seems like a gross exagerration.

I think Iran would do it, especially when you take into regard the religious messianism of its leader Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

According to Islamic Eschatology, the 12th imam can only arrive in a state of Chaos. A chaos Mahmoud Ahmadinjad would be happy to help create.

Before his coming will come the red death and the white death. The red death is the sword and the white death is plague.

You can hardly blame Muslims for thinking that today is the generation in which the Imam will return.

• The Muslims will throw off the reins and take possession of their land, throwing out the authority of the foreigners.
  
  This sort of reminds me of the "Arab Spring".
  
  
• There will be a great conflict in the land of Syria, until it is destroyed.
  
• Death and fear will afflict the people of Baghdad and Iraq. A fire will appear in the sky and a redness will cover them.
  
  
  

  
  
  IF and I mean IF Iran are stupid enough to close the Strait of Hormuz, the US will attack with the EU in tow; Israel will get what it wants but everyone will be condemning Iran, not Israel or Zionists, leading me back full circle to NO! killing Zionists will never become a popular sentiment!!
  

  
  
  I find most users at this site to be anti-Israel and NOT anti-Iran. Although i do think there will exist two different factions. Liberals/Democrats, Israel bashers, anti-semites, Arabs/Muslims, all those who already show an avid or moderate anti-zionism will turn into rabid Jew haters.
  
  Some on the outskirts of such sentiment will probably fall in with that mentality.
  
  Others, Republicans, Evangelical christians, will probably side with Jews and Israel. And so will blame the economic fallout of Israels attack, on Iran - for blocking the strait.
  
  In anycase, how would you feel? If Israel attacked Iran - an idea already very unpopular amongst liberals and conspiracy theorists, wouldnt it make sense to blame Israel, and NOT Iran? Afterall, Iran would merely be keeping true to their original threat.
  
  edit on 5-8-2011 by dontreally because: (no reason given)
  

First off, let me clarify the statment that you misunderstood (which I find odd as you quoted it) that is is not impossible for Iran to close the strait of Hormuz, quite frankly I agree that they a crazy enough that they might just do it. My statment was that it would be impossible as in "Not able to occur, exist, or be done" that it would cause the global ecenomic meltdown you talked about, because the US (as per my quote from the article) wouldnt let it happen and being that much more powerful, equipped and manned that they would plough through the Iranians in a matter of weeks at the most (as per the quote from the article) which of course does not take into account the fact that the EU would join in anyway, likely reducing those weeks to days. Thus, impossible. I mean, do you really think the rest of the world would sit around, watching the clouds and counting their fingers and toes if Iran DID close the strait of Hormuz? That would be tantamount to suicide! The best that the Iranians could hope for in doing this is causing a couple of days of 'trouble' before they get trounced and occupied and I think they know this, which is why I don't believe they would be stupid enough to do it.

And you can bet your bottom dollar that the Isralies would not be stupid enough to take action without support, ESPECIALLY if it makes em look like the bad guys when in truth, it wont be long before Iran takes a step further over the line and boom, the US will take greater action anyway. Granted, there is no doubt that they are pushing the agenda, hence their urging of the worlds powers to take action, but like I say, thats a different thing to just ignoring everyone and going at it themselves.

Now to take your final point:

I find most users at this site to be anti-Israel and NOT anti-Iran. Although i do think there will exist two different factions. Liberals/Democrats, Israel bashers, anti-semites, Arabs/Muslims, all those who already show an avid or moderate anti-zionism will turn into rabid Jew haters. Some on the outskirts of such sentiment will probably fall in with that mentality. Others, Republicans, Evangelical christians, will probably side with Jews and Israel. And so will blame the economic fallout of Israels attack, on Iran - for blocking the strait. In anycase, how would you feel? If Israel attacked Iran - an idea already very unpopular amongst liberals and conspiracy theorists, wouldnt it make sense to blame Israel, and NOT Iran? Afterall, Iran would merely be keeping true to their original threat.

I agree that I find most users at this site anti-Israel and not anti-Iran, but to be clear I am NOT anti Iran or anti Israel, so my point of view comes from common sense as opposed to my particular brand of religion and or hatred for someone else. I read it somewhere, probably on a post on ATS that Jewish children are taught from a very young age that everyone hates them (Jews) and whilst I cannot confirm if thats true or not, what IS true, as you stated, that there is a historical trend of people hating Jews / Zionists (bearing in mind that being a Jew does not make you a Zionist and vice versa). So taking that into consideration, do you really think, given that they 'could' be blamed for Iran blocking the strait, that they would do it, when the rest of the world is already condemning Iran for their actions anyway? These guys are not stupid, they will just wait and in the meantime, encourage the rest of the world to attack until such time as, either US/EU do take notice and act or for when Iran incite the US/EU to act. Either way, they avoid the stigmatism you are talking about. Couple this with the fact that the closing of the strait would NOT cause the ecenomic breakdown you are talking about anyway, Israel will come out of it just fine.

How I would feel if Israel DID attack by themselves is surprised, because like I say it would not make one iota of sense and I credit their collective with a lot more cerebral fortitude than that.

And finally:

If Israel attacked Iran - an idea already very unpopular amongst liberals and conspiracy theorists, wouldnt it make sense to blame Israel, and NOT Iran? Afterall, Iran would merely be keeping true to their original threat.

No of course it wouldn't because in the massivley unlikley event that they did in fact attack, they would be damn sure the world was behind them first. And suggesting that people wouldn't blame Iran because they were keeping to their original threat is like suggesting that a psycopath wouldnt be blamed for killing a child, if he said first that he was going to do it. Of course he would be blamed, as would Iran.

I find most users at this site to be anti-Israel and NOT anti-Iran.

But wouldn't you agree that there is some justification for that reasoning?

Who have Iran attacked in the last century compared to Israel?
What trouble has Iran caused apart from a little mouthing off?

Would the closing of the straight cripple transport or merely make it more costly and loner to go another route?

Have Iran actually got secret nuclear weapons or even a program to make them as opposed to Israel who have the worst kept secret nuclear weapons program in history and are not shy in telling everyone they would DEFINITELY USE THEM??

Originally posted by backinblack

I find most users at this site to be anti-Israel and NOT anti-Iran.

But wouldn't you agree that there is some justification for that reasoning?

Who have Iran attacked in the last century compared to Israel?
What trouble has Iran caused apart from a little mouthing off?

Would the closing of the straight cripple transport or merely make it more costly and loner to go another route?

Have Iran actually got secret nuclear weapons or even a program to make them as opposed to Israel who have the worst kept secret nuclear weapons program in history and are not shy in telling everyone they would DEFINITELY USE THEM??

Hahaha who have Iran attacked in the last century? Don't you remember the Iran / Iraq war???
Iran / Iraq war familiarise yourself.

Or are you going to say that doesn't count because the Iraqis turned out to be the bad guys???

reply to post by AtlantisX99


There you go, Israel is kind of a wild card. They might, they might not its really hard to say.
I dont like it when alot gang up on the one, but when you see exactly how the israelis treat others it makes it hard to say they are the good guys. I had the same thoughts about the US government and what it and the private corporations do to other countries around the world.
I dont believe nuclear weapons would be used against Israel, the countries want the Holy Land but i can see Israel using nuclear weapons against other countries and we all know israel has them no need to debate that. Now bio weapons are another possibility because they leave the infra-structure intacted. But how do muslims view attacking the actual physical land of israel not the people? Its their holy land too, am i wrong?

We can all live in peace and harmony but only if we are all dead it seems.

reply to post by dontreally


I really don't think that US citizens would turn on Jews in such a situation. There is no deep festering hate of Jews here. The local Jews have a very good relationship with the Christians. The Jews have managed to integrate into the general population and still keep their faith.

It is FAR more likely that the US population would turn on Muslims. There is already a festering dislike of Muslims in the US. We blame Muslims for the security at the airports. We blame Muslims for the wars we are in. They are seen as a religion that teaches hate and intolerance. The Muslims do not integrate into society. I occasionally see Muslims with their head scarves around town. They keep to themselves and don't make friends with Christians. This separation is what is likely to be their downfall. In a SHTF scenario they could get rounded up like the Japanese were in WWII.