Things are getting bad.

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by Jansy

 

My disabled brother and I, both in our sixties, and him still recovering from major surgery, are having to leave the home we've rented for the last 14 years in just a few more days because we've run out of saleable resources, and our incomes have steadily shrunk while expenses have risen.

The final straw was the sudden loss of a roommate because the business he worked for was sold and his job eliminated, combined with my landlady's desire to remodel and up the rent. It wasn't a great job, and paid under the table (therefore no unemployment), so the loss was immediate and irreplaceable. Living paycheck to paycheck and falling slowly behind each month leads to where we are now:

Too poor to stay and too poor to pay for a move.

We've lots of stuff, but it's fairly worthless in today's economy: no one who would want it has money to buy it, and anyone with money can get better. So we're stuck with the options of paying to store it, paying to throw it away, giving it away, or selling it for literally pennies.

Cuts aren't the answer: we've had years of them. What is needed is JOBS.

More cuts = fewer jobs, fewer jobs = less tax revenues = more cuts = fewer jobs....

How the hell does that help?

What is needed is a return to the tax rates of the the era Republicans are so fond of: the '50's.

That will solve most of the problems we're having with the deficits.

edit on 27-7-2011 by apacheman because: sp

Well done well said. At long last somebody who sees the problem : lack of work not debt.

Debt does NOT cause unemployment. Lack of demand for goods and services do. Ironically cuts in public services promotes job losses DUH!

Increase jobs = less welfare = less debt
Increase jobs = more taxes = less debt
Higher taxes = less debt
Inflation = less debt (7% inflation over 10 years reduces 14 trillion dept to 8 trillion in real terms)

Also interesting is that people don't realise they own most of their own debt!?!?!?!?! (crazy capitalist system) Peoples investments (and pensions) in bonds are "the government debt". About 9 trillion of the 14 the US owes to itself.......do you want to default?

Personally I think the whole western government debt business is up its own rear end. I can see the need for temporary debt for large scale capital projects, war, massive environmental disaster costs etc but to use it as a financing system by borrowing against future earnings (just like people do with credit cards!) is crazy.

That said the solution is simple : more debt (ironically) to stimulate growth through public infrastructure projects, no cut backs, promotion and use of domestic suppliers for ALL projects.

reply to post by camaro68ss


Great post, thread. From how I understand it what you wrote comes from your heart and it describes in few words how many, many people feel in many other parts of the western world.

I am from the Netherlands and we are used to have our stuff covered. Social-wellfare plans and re-integration help were aids to help people back on their feet when they lost their job for what ever reason.....a bummer but no panic

These government aids are still in place but have been heavily cut due to lack of government budget. In my opinion should many of these cuts been made far much earlier because of abuse by parasites who rather receive all the goodies for free than to work for it. But that's an other story. The thing is that these cuts are an indication of the struggle our government has with their financial balance.

If the unemployment figures will increase with an unexpected high number the dutch government will not have the capacity to avoid an avalange into a grimm abbys.

As a good conspiracy conspiritor I have to admit that my gut feeling says that the cause of this global crisis is a gigantic money drain....for something. I mean, it is just not normal how that many countries suddently have financial problems. Each year there are economic graduates from prominent universities like Harvard, Oxford, Yale, Cambridge and all those other places in the world. Each year there are new Phd's in economics and we must belief that after 1928 nothing has been learned to avoid such a horror? That not one government in the world and in special the one of the USA has no financial advisor with the intelligence to see this comming from far?

Maybe I am wrong and have these governments been warned by advisors but have these advisors been systematically ignored.....Because there must be a commity of international financial advisors who meet from time to time to discuss the status of the global financial health, this economic crisis did not come as a surprise.

If one such a financial advisor has been ignored by his president or congress the consequences could never have such a global impact as they appear to be today. Some advisor from some other country would have shaken the lot awake and prevented a global meltdown. So, in my reasoning there must be a lot of advisors been "ignored", which points into a hidden agenda. É vòila...a conspiracy!!

I know,...a lot of assumptions....just my thoughts.

Anyways...S&F for the usefull thread.

reply to post by camaro68ss


try to keep your guys busy man. run adds on craigslist for pressure washing & painting. send your better looking guys door to door if you have to. good luck man... i run a pretty decent sized retail store(home game room, (bar supplies), we are pretty busy, i hope it stays that way 4 the next couple of years.

Hi i'm new to ATS although been watching this site for a long time and now i feel is the right time to join you guys so hello all.

Just to add to this discussion i'm from the UK where everything i earn is being taken by my government though taxes and scroungers that don't deserve to be paid benifits, and the dreaded banks situation in this country is making things hard for everone. And i have to be honest we are finding it very challenging and emotionally draining.

I am 28 years old and for the most part have two successful businesses so fingers crossed. I left school with no formal qualifications had dead-end jobs and worked every hour i could to provide for my family. If i can achieve this with not much to start with i believe that anyone who is anyone can survive this awful mess that's lurking around the corner!

I do believe that things will get much much worse before things start to get better, i wish everyone here on ATS and the rest of the world the best of luck now and in the future!

Hi everyone,
I've been on ATS for a while but dont often post, but when I found this thread I felt I wanted to say how great it is that everyone feels they can get a bit of support from knowing that we are all in the same boat. Here in the UK my husband works full time and I work part time, we rent our home and have two grown up children who live with us. My oldest son is a qualified computer engineer but cannot find work in the field. After qualifying he spent a year looking for work to no avail and finally he has started a job cleaning a factory. Youngest son and his girlfriend still looking for work, trouble being they are not experienced at anything (both going back to college in Sept)
After 8 months of not being able to get work he started to volunteer at the local mental health support group where I work and now although he enjoys it he is so dispondent at not being able to pay his way.
I have huge university fees to pay back as has my oldest son, this is where I can see the problem, in our house alone between us we owe aprox £20,000 in uni fees, these fees are paid back through wages when you are earning £21,000 a year or more. Now as neither my oldest son or myself can find full time work in the professions we are qualified , therefore we cannot pay back our fees.
Both myself and my oldest son would love nothing more than to be able to pay back what we owe but realistically on part time wages it is impossible.
My husband works for the local council and his job which was once deemed to be a job for life is in the balance too. only yesterday 1 more person was laid off
I was always brought up to be aware that there was always someone worse off than myself but at this present time I really cannot see us as a family ever managing to get out of this chasm which we seem to have been dropped into.
We are a hard working family and up to now we have managed but if this downturn carrys on much longer I dont know where we will end up.

Now after my whinge I would just like to send all our thoughts and wishes to everyone both here in the UK and over the pond who are struggling right now.

Originally posted by camaro68ss
I just needed to post something. I’m just sitting here shaking my head in disbelief and frustration. For those that know a little about me I’m a manager in a construction company and I have to lay off another 4 people today. It’s getting really hard out there and I can’t take it.

I’m getting tired of these economic time, I know it’s not going to get any better. It seems like I’m laying people off every month now and our sales number are dropping. I see this whole stupid debt limit mess in Washington and they just don’t get it. They need to cut 1.6 Trillion now! Not 4 trillion over 10 years. Don’t these guys understand compounding interest and debt. It’s never going to get paid off.

I can barely cope any more but I must stay strong for my family. I’m the anchor and if they see me depressed or drained it’s going to scare them. It’s so hard to come home happy anymore with all the bad news. But I want them to live a “normal life” as long as they can because we don’t know when this “normal” will be taken away from us. That’s why I like to get it all out here.

I know what’s coming, an all out economic collapse. I just thought I could emotionally make it through better than I am. I can’t imagine how I would feel if I never started preparing like I did 7 months ago. How are the rest of you on ATS holding up? I would like to make this thread a lean on me type of thread. One where we can all come together, shear our stores and help each other through them. I need an outlet and I don’t want to start scaring my family but things look bleak for the United States and its economy.

I'm sorry that you are having to suffer through this economic drawdown.

jobless claims came in lower but last weeks numbers have been revised upward. the games continue in the govt numbers. im sure next week will be revised upward for this week. markets shaking off the news as it suspects next week we will get a correction basically saying "sike" we fooled you there are no jobs.

Todays numbers do not help a bit. however please be encouraged. hang in there. you can and will make it.

I feel for you OP, iam a young man, 18 years old, Living in the UK, ive been working full time for just over a year now & im finding it hard to struggle on, iam earning above the Minimum wage for people my age, which is a positive point, But i know what is coming, my parents cannot see why i do not want to save money away in a bank account, They dont see why i want to quit my job and become self sufficient & start stashing up real valuables for a SHTF scenario, They just say 'why dont you just stay on and keep saving' 'Save for what i say?' They cannot give me an answer, because there is nothing logical to save for, If all the banks are going to collapse in my lifetime, what is the point in spending anymore of my time earning paper to stash away in a bank, to just get none of it back when the bank collapses, I havent bothered trying to explain to them the reason why i want to quit, They just see me as being immature or irresponsible when i have this view.

One of them has a vacant household that i want to go and live in and prepare myself, mentally, physically and preparing things that will become the REAL valuables in a SHTF scenario, not jewellery or money, or gold or silver. But said parent wants to rent the house out to reduce the mortgage payment & doesnt want me to basically as they see it 'lounge around doing nothing' as i would be unemployed, i have plans for preparation, i wont divulge into them, but there not happy with the legal status of certain plans. Well unfortunately, when a SHTF scenario happens, i dont think people will be regarding laws very much, when neighbours & friends are fighting each other for food cause they dont have the money to afford a loaf of bread, it will be chaos, people will be getting there houses broken into, there will be riots in the streets, I feel as if there the ones being unreasonble as they just cant see it coming, one of them is unemployed and has plenty of time to sit on the internet reading and researching, the other, whos in a better financial position, is just too caught up in her job and the general stress of life to 'care' so to speak, shes the kind of person whos more interested in her daily viewing on tv or something else completely unimportant & there both trying to force the way they've lived their lives upon me, trying to give me no option but to stay in a job, until its too late & everything ive been forced to work for, spend my life unhappy for, is taken away from me in a second, i just feel like im completely trapped.

Originally posted by USXpat
It's not particularly easy anywhere. My #1 recommendation is to leave the United States.

There are plenty of countries still where the cost of living is lower, yet the standard of living is higher than the United States. Most importantly, research where the jobs are and try to pick up a second language. Or, if you have a decent nest egg, you can probably hire a translator/personal assistant at your destination country to help you get settled in. The first year will be the most expensive, after that it should drop off at least 50-60% if you do your research. It takes a good three years or so to really get settled in and comfortable in a foreign environment - like Eastern Europe. It's more difficult for a family.

My country holds the biggest concentration of Americans outside of North America. About a quarter of a million of them live here (not as tourists). Cost of living is still very low (1 grand a month gives you 3 or more maids, all the modern necessities, decent food, rent, etc) but the thing is, there are no jobs for them. And foreigners are not allowed to own land.

Originally posted by camaro68ss
I’m just sitting here shaking my head in disbelief and frustration.

Camaro:

I am shaking my head too. Un-freaking believeable!

I sort of predicted an economic collapse many years ago (around the time we first went into Iraq), and I also envisioned the next revolution - the "Financial Revolution". I told my wife and a few close friends. They all think I am crazy. I still hold on to my predictions and am watching them unfold, except now I just keep to myself.

I work in Property Management and it just plain stinks!!!!! Vacancies abound, rents are tumbling, delinquencies are plentiful, carrying costs increasing, fuel costs increasing, insurance costs increasing, etc. Profits are non-existent and losses have taken over.

I also see the home building/construction industry as I support a few companies that own plots of sub-divided land. These guys will sell you a lot or build a house for you, but no houses are presently being built, and none have moved in over a year. The carrying costs are enormous and there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

In yesterday's mail I received a notice from my state that I have to pay an interest assessment for my states unemployment fund. The state had to borrow from the Federal governemt and the interest is being passed onto all companies with payroll (unemployment accounts actually). I thought this to be 1000% wrong and was quite upset that I am footing the bill for our state and federal government's stupidity. They screw up and I pay for it!

I am still hot under the collar about it, but I realize there is very little I can do. The tab for me was about $100, but it's the principal that counts, not the amount. For others like my clients, it's in the thousands.

We hear all the non-action and fear mongering about the debit ceiling, but no one sees the solution. It is there in our faces, yet we are led to believe it is unatainable. Our governemt does not place these on the table as many will view it as political suicide. If one would put it on the table, I am sure the intelligent portion of the country's population (the ones that can see through the smoke and mirrors) would support it.

My personal view on the Solution:

-Immediately end our war in Iraq and get out. Stop funding them!!! (Why are we still there?)

-Immediately end the war in Afghanastan. Stop funding them too!!!! (Taliban did not cause 9/11.)

-Immediately end the war on Drugs (fictious war). Make pot legal and start taxing it. (Cha Ching!!!)

-Immediately stop payments to other countries. Why are we pissing away our money??? Are we a Charity Org?

-Immediately start looking inwards at solving our home land problems before we can look to the world again.

-Immediately raise tarriff's on all imports. No tarriff's on exports.

-Immediately abolish the TSA and all other ineffective "security controls". They don't work and cost a fortune.

The above are just some of the things I would do immediately to reverse the present 1,000 MPH nose-dive we are in.

Camaro, I am with you on this general topic. I used to take vacations twice a year. I have not been able to take a vacation since March 2008, and I am working like a dog seven days a week. Why? Because I am doing three people's job's. It is literally killing me, but the alternative would really kill me.

I feel like my wheels are spinning as fast as possible, yet I'm going NOWHERE.

This is NOT the American Dream anymore. It's the beginning of our fall. Similar to the Roman Empire falling.

Lastly, (this one just kills me) anyone that thinks the stock market is an indicator of the economy needs to seriously rethink that. I am tired of the news people and others that I know using the stock market as a gauge of the economy. They are so very mistaken!!! Yet some of these people are well educated. I think they may have lost sight of what the stock market really is, how it works and who the players are. In my mind, the Stock Market is no different from Las Vegas. Sometimes you win, but mostly you loose. It's a gamble at best! It is not like a bank where your principal is protected and guaranteed.

The real gauge of the economy is the local business owner! Why doesn't anyone see that? It all starts and ends with the small fish. When was the last time Obama went to buy bagels, or went grocery shopping, or filled up at a gas station?? He is delusional because he is removed from what the local people deal with daily! Absolutely infuriating!

Sorry for my multi-point rambling, but I do feel much better now.

Thank you for the thread. It is for a good cause!

-E2

reply to post by EyesII


Corporations have killed the small mom and pop stores. Local grocery stores have no chance against the Hy-vee's, Krogers and Publix. A small electronics/appliance store gets killed by Best Buy and Circuit City or Wal-Mart. and forget the once popular local record store...Tower Records, Virgin stores and again, Best Buy or Target have all but forced them out of the market. you can't even have a small convenience store without being affiliated with BP or Exxon.

The only local small store shops that barely hang on are local comic book shops and small liquor stores. Big business forced the small guy out of business and have their hooks deep in special interest groups in Washington. say good-bye to the middle class. soon it will only be the rich and the poor and the rich will continue to get richer while the poor will get poorer by being taxed to death to cover the financial short comings of our govt.

One of the biggest issues I see is that the more they cut, the more people will lose their jobs, considering the Government is the largest employer. The more people that lose their jobs, the more that will just get transferred to unemployment until those benefits dry up for them. Then they will be unemployed, and not spending. When people don't spend things don't get bought, they build up and surplus until corporations and manufacturing adjust, by reducing production and laying people off. The cycle continues at each step, as it is a problem that is feeding itself.

Interestingly, Corporations are not the real job creators, consumers are.

reply to post by camaro68ss


You are not alone in your feelings, there is a great deal to be worried about in the world today. However that being said you can control some of the negative messaging coming to you. When I feel like I am about to overwhelmed, my first order of business is to turn off the news for a few days. This is usally followed by a visit to the fail blog and engrish.com. A good round of hot steamy, up and down the stairs nookie also helps. Now mind you I'm not saying stick your head in the sand or anything but some laughs and loves remind you that most of the time the negativity is vastly overstated. As a business owner you are still doing better then many and you sound like you have a lot to be thankful for.

reply to post by camaro68ss


If "they" cut 1.6 trillion in spending -- especially from the bottom, where the money tends to recirculate back into the greater economy a few times -- the economy will constrict more. People will buy less, and there will be a marked decrease in demand for goods and services, from the bottom to the top.

I'm not sure how this can be stated in simpler terms. What you are demanding will destroy 20% or more of our GDP over the next year, put another 10%+ out of work, and send the US economy into a tailspin from which it cannot recover.

Jobs are not created because you think people should work more.

Jobs are created because there is an increase in demand for goods and services above and beyond the current capacity.

How can a manager at a construction company not understand this?

reply to post by DJM8507


Bingo. And the closer you are to the bottom, the more your money tends to circulate through the economy on its way up the ladder. Spot on.

Globalization, as what was disgustingly advertsied all over tv land through the early 2000's, is not a bad thing at all, bringing us all together. the problem is, we have learned it was for greedy profoits and control via the corporations, and governement here. it has failed and was a big lie, they wnated everyone to get on the bangwagon. now we see what bringing us all together realy means, to our leaders...slave wages, almsot everything taken away from you and control
had it been fair for all, yeah thats one thing. but being taxpayers and whats left of the soc alled middle class..its US that suffer not the corporations. they shuold be brought up on charges of theft, sneak thievery, lying and fraud. on a global scale*

reply to post by zatara


Zatara, your post could spin off a thread of its own! Is the money drain to fight a secret alien invasion? Is it so that the elite can terraform and remove themselves to their new planet since this one has been compromised? Is it the fruition of the New World Order Plans? I know that those sound grandiose, and I would only even propose them here, on a conspiracy site, but really, you are sooooo right. All those experts, and nobody saw this coming for the whole world? And nobody can fix it?

Ola US of A/OP....meaning 'hi' USA/OP.

Your country has been the beacon of liberty for many a century.

I say this with the greatest compassion, for you are on the verge of entering a very special time indeed. Your civil liberties are being removed until only the American/human-being is left. Only the person. Nothing else packaged around it to prevent it from seeing who and what it really is.

You are the most amazing nation and see in the "American" the greatest innovation and ability to 'market' ice to an Eskimo. On the planetary 'company' spaceship, meandering through space, the USA represents innovation and marketing to the rest of us.

You are the country of friendly people who say "Have a nice day" from the heart and that of long, slinky Cadillacs cruising the boulevard. You are that extreme of duality, that plays out before us, what it means when you take the above to its logical extreme.

For this I thank you.

You have been lied too though and within, the spirit of revolution re-ignited. Yet revolution is not the way to go as we have done that on this planet already. Revolution simply brings the ignorant to power they do not understand and exposed to forces they cannot control.

So revolution is not the way. Bearing arms is not the way when faced with an army of trained soldiers...your own people @ 20 000 of them (at present) deployed to 'watch' over you. Revolution will just bring another civil war and more bloodshed of your own brothers and sisters. You have done this before as we have done this in South Africa. To this their is no long-term benefit.

More war is not the answer yet doing nothing unacceptable..."Bad things happen when good men do nothing"-Author unknown to me.

You are stripped of everything you once held dear...the progress...the growth...the world domination and adulation of the "American Way" envied by so many until recently.

Yet in the recently recorded history of our dear planet your progress stands as our greatest civilisation. Recognised by one and all as the greatest in our history...where even the poor, below the bread-line apparently, has 2.x TV's in their house/trailer (according to my brother who lives in Denver, Colorado).

Wow...in my country the poor lives in shacks of zink and plastic sheeting and a radio would be considered a luxury. This reply not in comparison though...simply in recognition of your value to us all.

So you stand at a precipice and need to make a decision on how you are going to handle this going forward. You know already the existing power-bases serve another agenda and the 'People', the essence of "Have a nice day" have long since been forgotten and replaced with the concept of "Citizen X".

Thus similar to the Phoenix, rising from the ashes, it is imperative that you seek within to find that resolution that brings about a new dispensation and structure of governance. For we are but hive 'ants' that function in closely guarded confinement and obey the rule of human 'law'...that of the Hive. The Hive I speak of here is not the one in the US, but the planetary one of which the US forms a significant part of.

With respect, I refer to us as insects/ants, as for from space, our cities and tar roads, look exactly like an ant hill/hive. We build structures to live within, some under-ground and drive on roads made of the by-product (read- pheromones) of the fuel our vehicles consume. Have a look at how ants do their thing and you will see yourselves/ourselves.

We function together, have always, will always.

Yet we speak continuously of what the 'government' should do yet we know that very structure is now obsolete. It cannot function in the state that it is in and like Rome, rot has set from within. Like anything...power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

So the current way is not in our tool-set to be used and a new way is required. But what is that?

Yes...the only place is where charity starts. Charity starts at home....home is where the heart is...the heart is where? In your chest...in you. Charity starts with you dear OP. It starts with this feeling of great compassion you are telling us about. That sense of suffering you wish to alleviate upon the people you are dismissing. Yes YOU are dismissing. No matter the heart you do it in...the one you are dismissing remembers you as the dismissive authority. You are doing it to them. It is not happening out of thin air...no...an actual act is required and you stand for the implementation and existence of that act.

So you breathe on this and tomorrow you rise again and continue with the hope that hope floats and that tomorrow brings another day with new opportunities. Yet tomorrow is of fractal design that springs forth from today. And thus beckons the actuality that your today was filled with dismissals that feeds the creation of tomorrow.

So current action and heartfelt hurt for what you are doing cannot remedy the situation. How can the dismissal of one be a good thing? Perhaps it is as it frees the one construction hand to perhaps endeavour upon a road of creationary brilliance and rise as the Phoenix from his/her ashes to become that amazing something you look towards and realise you formed the catalytic converter to enable such brilliance.

Thus your heartache is not what is needed and simply brings sorrow to the family you return to at night whom will never be the same and normality never their environment for your heart is heavy in your attack on financial freedom impacting said employees of the company that you serve. The company YOU serve.

Thus even the dismissals not the concern at hand.

Ghandi said "Be the change you wish to see in the world". BE...the change. Not talk about it, reminisce about it...write poems about it...no...BE it...BEING it.

The 'beingness' I refer to here is whatever you decide can bring a positive, constructive next step to this seemingly dark situation. You are an American citizen...you have innovation and great courage in your bloodlines...you have come across the mad Atlantic to find a new home for your dreams. You have such great courage that I urge you to remember your brilliance...your courage, your reason for beingness in the first place.

Do you really think you are just here to exist? To be? No...you need to express your beingness into the dreams you hold for your children. Only in the beingness can you be any example to your children. They do not learn from your stern words, only from your actions...so too the employees you face every day. How can you face them tomorrow with the worry that perhaps you need to dismiss them? How can you take into your heart today and sleep upon your beautiful dreams and have 'dismissals' at your very core.

No...you can do more...Yes you Can...indeed Obama has said it and more than ever the American people need to see that he speaks symbolically to each of you...that within you lies the possibility of your future and that of our planet. Can you fathom that you are laying the groundwork to our planet and my small country here in South Africa? Can you fathom the use of the Dollar world-wide and wonder of your consequence to us all no matter the address?

Your dismissal of another is the world-wide dismissal of people. Every act is symbolic...nothing is left to chance.

Thus breathe...for within your breath...that which you draw 'within' you, lies the next moment of creation. No matter your consideration of the smallness of your contribution...tomorrow when you go back to your construction company take a sense of constructive positivity with you...find it...I urge you to find it on behalf of us all.

-Regards,

BBoldBUrself

I too am getting an uneasy feeling about the debt situation. I don't think it's too far fetched to see chaos in the streets. If it comes to that I just hope i can weather the storm.

I manage a retail store and I am afraid of what is going to happen this fall.

I think August and September are going to see huge drops in spending.

People don't have the money and what they do have they are to nervous to spend.

reply to post by camaro68ss


I think maybe you spend too much time in places like this reading over this BS.. Its about like the war on terror, in the end its not going to be so bad. But hey, if FOX "News" can keep you afraid of it, they will.