Anders Behring Breivik and the hidden hate of ATS.

Well here we are once again folks.

I've been reading a lot of the threads here on ATS about the massacre in Norway of left-wing political activists. Usually, I'm on the left-wing side of the fence, and I'm quite happy to rant about scummy right-wing gits.

However, not this time.

A previous thread of mine highlighted my anger about what happened here. Consequently, a right-wing response to my thread and others appeared here.

I'm feeling sad about the response on ATS, including my own. We've all got riled up about the motivations of this Norwegian maniac, and whether or not he was motivated by fundamentalist Christianity, and extreme right-wing views. It's my view that he was in both cases, and that he is a shining example of everything I'm fighting against with religion and the right-wing. However, for the sake of this thread, I'm willing to forego partisan comments on this.

The problem I have is this.

ATS is NOT dealing with its' hatred. We all have it. I have it with my views about right-wing and religious people. Others have it towards me because I dare to challenge the right-wing and religious hegemony established here on ATS. I'm no 'big man', but I do want to be able to drop my harsh feelings towards the right and religious folks. But I don't know how - especially when people like Mr Breivik do their thing, and many on here either simply 'blame muslims' for his actions, or outright support him because he belongs to 'their camp'.

I want to be able to 'live and let live', without running the risk of right-wing or religious people imposing their views upon me because I stopped challenging them. We all know that's what would happen. In recent years, the Atheist movement has developed teeth, and has come out fighting - along with the Liberal movement which has really begun networking and spreading the idea that conservatism just isn't 'human'. I believe it is this resurgence which led Mr Breivik to feel his standpoint was threatened, and for him to go on a rampage. Lefties, Liberals and Atheists all like to argue and verbally attack on their views - apparently righties & fundy Christians like to shoot instead.

This is my fear, I desperately want to let go of my hatred, as it's beginning to get to me. But I can't - because what if one day another Breivik appears outside my door? I'm going to need every ounce of my hatred then. Where do we go from here?

Is the coming violence between right and left the only answer? Or can we find another more 'human' way of living with each others differences?

The Revenant.

reply to post by The Revenant




Excellent post

Originally posted by The Revenant
Well here we are once again folks.

I've been reading a lot of the threads here on ATS about the massacre in Norway of left-wing political activists. Usually, I'm on the left-wing side of the fence, and I'm quite happy to rant about scummy right-wing gits.

However, not this time.

A previous thread of mine highlighted my anger about what happened here. Consequently, a right-wing response to my thread and others appeared here.

I'm feeling sad about the response on ATS, including my own. We've all got riled up about the motivations of this Norwegian maniac, and whether or not he was motivated by fundamentalist Christianity, and extreme right-wing views. It's my view that he was in both cases, and that he is a shining example of everything I'm fighting against with religion and the right-wing. However, for the sake of this thread, I'm willing to forego partisan comments on this.

The problem I have is this.

ATS is NOT dealing with its' hatred. We all have it. I have it with my views about right-wing and religious people. Others have it towards me because I dare to challenge the right-wing and religious hegemony established here on ATS. I'm no 'big man', but I do want to be able to drop my harsh feelings towards the right and religious folks. But I don't know how - especially when people like Mr Breivik do their thing, and many on here either simply 'blame muslims' for his actions, or outright support him because he belongs to 'their camp'.

I want to be able to 'live and let live', without running the risk of right-wing or religious people imposing their views upon me because I stopped challenging them. We all know that's what would happen. In recent years, the Atheist movement has developed teeth, and has come out fighting - along with the Liberal movement which has really begun networking and spreading the idea that conservatism just isn't 'human'. I believe it is this resurgence which led Mr Breivik to feel his standpoint was threatened, and for him to go on a rampage. Lefties, Liberals and Atheists all like to argue and verbally attack on their views - apparently righties & fundy Christians like to shoot instead.

This is my fear, I desperately want to let go of my hatred, as it's beginning to get to me. But I can't - because what if one day another Breivik appears outside my door? I'm going to need every ounce of my hatred then. Where do we go from here?

Is the coming violence between right and left the only answer? Or can we find another more 'human' way of living with each others differences?

The Revenant.

Ive been on ATS a few years

trust me, the hate isnt as hidden as you may think.

Originally posted by Question Fate
Ive been on ATS a few years

trust me, the hate isnt as hidden as you may think.

Whilst you're probably right, for the sake of this thread, we'll say it is eh? Because I don't think everyone recognises it for what it is - as such to them, it is hidden.

I just hope there's a future for us all, because if ATS is anything to go by, we're heading for another big conflict between the far-right and the left. I hoped I'd never see it.

The Revenant.

reply to post by The Revenant

Is the coming violence between right and left the only answer?

The thing is, that extremists want to rile up people to fight each other. People who are pretty much in the same social-economic position. Why? Because they themselves have been duped by hate-ridden ideologies.

Or can we find another more 'human' way of living with each others differences?

People already do this. The majority of people do this. It's these little twerps with god complexes who are in governments or positions of relative power that are messing it up for the rest of us, regular people.

You should also understand that a lot of the talk is internet bravado on ATS. No way these people would utter their hate filled words outside or to an actual group they are hating; because they know they'd get smacked into the concrete. However, I have seen some disturbing posts after the Norway terrorist incident that agreed with the ideology of the nutcase who committed the atrocity. I would vote for a hunting party to hunt these folks down, but hey, that's just me; wanting to prevent more bloodshed.

Originally posted by Zamini
The thing is, that extremists want to rile up people to fight each other. People who are pretty much in the same social-economic position. Why? Because they themselves have been duped by hate-ridden ideologies.

Yes I agree with this - 'duping' is indeed the word. With our hatreds and our visceral reactions, we are all being duped into not seeing the real enemies. The Monetary System. The Market System. Faith over Science. Fiction over Fact.

But how do we intercept the war? How do we stop the escalation that people are 'braying' for after Breivik's massacre? I don't want to fight. I'm a lover not a fighter!

But I can't 'stand idly by'.

The Revenant.

reply to post by The Revenant

With our hatreds and our visceral reactions, we are all being duped into not seeing the real enemies.

Exactly, and for that very reason when I find myself at odds with an otherwise reasonable poster I remind them our differences are ideological and not physical - therefore we are not enemies.

But how do we intercept the war?

Information. This is how people have been duped for so long. But thanks to the internet we can have access to all kinds of information, amongst which, the truth.

How do we stop the escalation that people are 'braying' for after Breivik's massacre?

Sometimes these things work themselves out. Since the guys who would perpetrate these acts of terrorism are not doing it alone but are being egged on and supplied by a specific organization it will become clear sooner than later and they will be apprehended.

I don't want to fight. I'm a lover not a fighter!

Then spread the love so that you won't need to fight!

I'm disillusioned with ATS - I can cope with people holding opinions which are far removed from my own. The 'hate' is another matter however. For the first time last week I had to alert moderators to what was an obvious incitement to racial hatred - and guess what? It's still there.

I enjoy the 'breaking news' which pops up here and many times it does so before the MSM gets hold of it - so I hang around - but in all honesty I have very little respect for those who would present this as a bastion of freedom and truth. It's more a cesspool of hatred. The only way to deal with it is hate back or stay quiet, both of which defeat the purpose of being here...

Oz

reply to post by Ozscot

For the first time last week I had to alert moderators to what was an obvious incitement to racial hatred - and guess what? It's still there.

Yes, this is something disturbing that I've spotted as well. The real hateful comments are not removed, even worse, more puppet posters prop up the opinions of these imbeciles. Now watch this post be removed because of the word imbecile but posts pushing people to racism and discrimination are left alone.

reply to post by Zamini


Yes, this is frustrating as hell. I often feel the moderating team is totally out of touch with what is reasonable and fair when it comes to the left right issue, and especially the issue of hate speech, with which most goes unrecognised and non-perceived.

The Revenant.

reply to post by The Revenant


I couldn't agree more. Some threads and comments relating to the worm who killed all the young people are as sick as the worm's head! I could not stomach reading such crap.

ATS is full of all agendas really, lovers and haters.

Good to see you are a lover, me too!

I think that people should ditch the right/left bollocks, and all the other political ideologies which fall inside and outside these categories.

People should just form their own opinions on every relevant political subject, without the need to label themselves or ''fall in line'' with the other elements of a political ideology which they choose to identify with.

Adopting a particular political wing/philosophy stifles critical and creative thinking on important issues.

Worse still, someone who adheres to a political ideology or belongs to a political group usually conflates the ideology/group with their ego, which leads to the person reacting angrily or hatefully when their group is attacked, because - now the person has merged their beliefs with their ego - the attack is now felt and interpreted as an affront and challenge to the actual person, rather than the views they hold.

In addition to the above problems, joining a group leads to the inevitable human tribal behaviour of wanting or needing to assert dominance over those who are perceived as enemies of the group. Someone who proudly declares himself to be a ''right-winger'', for example, isn't usually just content to hold his views and get along with things, he also feels the need to belittle and ridicule threats to his group, such as ''left-wingers'' - and vice versa.

The funny thing on ATS is that many on the left bleat on about the site supposedly becoming a bastion for the right, whereas many on the right whinge about the site being taken over by the left !

In reality, of course, these erroneous perceptions are the result of biased analysis, which is yet another negative side-effect of adopting a political ideology and another example of that ideology seamlessly becoming part of one's ego.

The problem with internet discussion, is that it ends up polarizing people and pushing people further into their ideological entrapments. Most, me included, look for articles and news pieces that support our own view of the world and are probably too quick to shout down, what we perceive as our political enemies. I dont think I had ever been aware of such a left/right divide before I came to ATS. I have always been surrounded by pretty much liberal or left leaning people all my life, so ATS was a bit of a wake up call.

The thing is there are some fantastic ATS members who are on the right and I have learned a great deal from them.
Many have challenged my own beliefs about liberalism and socialism, even going so far as making me buy and read an Ayn Rand book.
Yet my favorite rightwing posters on ATS never post any hatred and are more concerned with economics and civil liberty issues. I guess it is the right Libertarians on ATS that I have a lot of time for . I may not agree with them, but can be sure the debates wont be reduced to personal attacks and ignorance.

But there seems to another element of the right that is caught up in the politics of hate. The ones who are obsessed with race/sexuality and opposing religious beliefs that cause the most damage to ATS. The ones that actually align themselves with much of the manifesto of Anders Breivik are the ones who concern me the most.

reply to post by Ozscot


Are you from Oz ...if so , that would be the reason you are feeling dissallusioned about the bigotry hatred by some members here . You have to remember the majority members are American and Ozzies do not really live on the same page as they

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Wow! You live up to your screen name, excellent observations! Stars to you!

I have to admit that I have been getting more and more disillusioned by ATS and think I need a long long break.. this is my second time of being on here, and it was the same the first time around some years ago now, tho I think things are nastier now..

I do however see the recent events as confirmation (in my mind) that we are verging on recreating the split and hatred the existed in society in the 1930s...

I can not see how the hatred displayed on either side is healthy, appropriate or even solves anything.. all I see and feel is hatred feeding on hatred and I dread to think where this is going..

I myself (tho with extensive American family) am getting more and more anti-American in my views, which is strange as in real life I really enjoy working alongside my Americans colleagues.

So personally I have decided it might be best, before I turn into a rabid hater to back away from ATS.. I am not blaming ATS, but rather my weak will not get pulled into haters debates..

But I do think we (as a species) are risking recreating another great war to vent this hatred on each other.. which is sad as the real cause of the hatred lies elsewhere.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Great post Penfold. As I posted before I am guilty of falling for the left right bollocks, I think a lot of it is down defining yourself by what you are not, rather than what you perceive yourself to be. I think the vast majority of people are moderates, not too left and not too right. Most people just want to live in peace with a good job and good public services. No one wants Communism in the same way no one wants Fascism and in that sense sometimes its good to have left and right represented in a democracy because they act as checks and balances on each other.

reply to post by The Revenant

Do not take offense to this statement...it is in no way an attack.
BUT:
All I can say to your post is that you better get off your left wing and fly on your own.
You sound well programmed.

To truly be aware of what is taking place, one must put aside all the MSM rhetoric.
Which is exactly where I see you are getting your description of your "side" or view...

So keep falling for the lingo.
Keep on your side of the fence.
Don't dare question your party or affiliation.
Or where the name actually originated from.
Or the roots of "left-wing" ideals.
Because you might be very shocked what you find.
Democrats from the 1800's would hang/tar/feather democrats of today.
Just for using the language to describe their party.

And both sides are actually making the same mistakes.
Almost as if on purpose.

Deception, divide and conquer, whatever you want to call it.
If we the people don't start standing on our own two feet...
Rather than believing everything the television tells us (MSM, CONgress) to believe...
We are going to have another Civil War.
Which is not necessary.

But that is, IMO, the plan.

United we stand, Divided we fall.
Truly means just that.

Originally posted by havok
reply to post by The Revenant

 

Do not take offense to this statement...it is in no way an attack.
BUT:
All I can say to your post is that you better get off your left wing and fly on your own.
You sound well programmed.

To truly be aware of what is taking place, one must put aside all the MSM rhetoric.
Which is exactly where I see you are getting your description of your "side" or view...

So keep falling for the lingo.
Keep on your side of the fence.
Don't dare question your party or affiliation.
Or where the name actually originated from.
Or the roots of "left-wing" ideals.
Because you might be very shocked what you find.
Democrats from the 1800's would hang/tar/feather democrats of today.
Just for using the language to describe their party.

And both sides are actually making the same mistakes.
Almost as if on purpose.

Deception, divide and conquer, whatever you want to call it.
If we the people don't start standing on our own two feet...
Rather than believing everything the television tells us (MSM, CONgress) to believe...
We are going to have another Civil War.
Which is not necessary.

But that is, IMO, the plan.

United we stand, Divided we fall.
Truly means just that.

LOL And there we have an illustration of the problem - Modern Day 'Left Wing' politics began with an American Founding Father and his publication 'The Rights of Man' although prior to this he had also written 'The Crisis' - Thomas Paine.

A man whom Marx, Engels and a whole host of other 'Socialist' thinkers trace their roots back to. Paine was so popular that George Washington insisted his 'Crisis' was read aloud to soldiers before engaging in battle.

So who is it needs to rethink where they are coming from?

Honestly, from across two oceans I'm beginning to think that Americans really don't understand the evolution of political philosophy and I don't mean that as a slight - it's just an observation. Where on earth do you get all these ideas about 'socialism'?

Oz

Originally posted by The Revenant
ATS is NOT dealing with its' hatred.

If ATS wanted it to be different, it would be. That's my conclusion after much thought.

Hatred, division, fear and extremism are what feed and run this country and they are what keeps ATS thriving. It's become a hotbed of fear and hatred. When it was a group of people talking about conspiracy theories, there was no room for the hatred I see here now (and will not tolerate in my life).

There are Muslim hate threads all through the Politics and Social Issues forums, but start a thread about a supposed Christian terrorist act, and show frustration and fear about Christianity... and it goes into the RANT forum in BTS, supporting the idea that it's acceptable and understandable to hate Muslims, but if you hate Christians, you're just ranting.

This is my fear, I desperately want to let go of my hatred, as it's beginning to get to me. But I can't - because what if one day another Breivik appears outside my door? I'm going to need every ounce of my hatred then.

You want to hold onto hatred so that, should some unknown monster show up outside your door in the future, you'll have hatred handy? It sounds like you're addicted to the division just like a lot of other people. This paragraph shows me that you fear letting go of hate... I wish you wouldn't buy into that. There is NO good reason to hold onto hatred and keep it close to your heart. If you need it, it will be there, trust me. Human beings are quite able to drum up hatred at a moment's notice.

The way to let go of hatred is simply to stop immersing yourself in it. Speaking only for myself (but I suspect I speak for more) that's why I am staying away from ATS for the most part right now. I don't want the fear and hatred to be a part of my life. It's consuming and detrimental to the spirit. I hope this is just a phase at ATS. I hope the administration eventually decides that they don't want this kind of site. But it's their choice and I will do what's right for me.

You can't stop hatred, any more than you can stop terrorism. But you can stop participating in it, adding to it, feeding it, arguing with it. Imagine a bunch of haters on a forum with no one to argue with... I will no longer feed the hatred by trying to eradicate it. That just makes it stronger and more powerful.

Where do we go from here?

I'm choosing to give my power to more positive things... like love, acceptance, peace and charity, instead of arguing with haters on the Internet. You'd be surprised how many things you can do in your community to feed these positive concepts, thus helping them grow, instead of arguing with haters, feeding (and therefore growing) the hatred.

We all have the choice. No one can serve two masters. Which master will you serve?

Thanks for listening.