Torturing Children - God help this country

Originally posted by RealisticPatriot
Furthermore they are targeting the police stations, Iraqi police stations? Why would iraqis do that.. THEY WOULDNT they want to restore peace and tranquility to that region as badly as we do. Most of the attacks are geared at causing instability in Iraq so that US can look like idiots. The terrorists dont give a flying F*ck how many iraqi's they kill because they share no creed with them. The saddam loyalists think the iraqi commoner should die because they didnt back saddam when the US came. Im not saying that the Iraqi people love us, but im saying they arent the ones killing our soldiers.

I think you are ignoring a powerful aspect of this situation.
Mixed in with the will to get the American troops out is a will to fill the void once we are gone.
This war has civil war undertones.
The group that displaces the US will be in a prime position to take control of the country.

In any civil war, kin kill kin.

A little scenario for you. If the Soviet Union had somehow succesfully invaded the US, and many Americans started to collaborate with them, enrolling in militias and police brigades, taking their orders directly from the Soviets, do you think there would be no Americans who would kill their collaborating kin?

Aaaah.

U.

Clearly these colorful actions (e.g. children prisoners, car bombing civilians, using holy places as cover) are designed to elicit a particular reaction and achieve a particular goal; be it from a specific individual, the populace in general, or a government in particular.

However, the context within which these actions are being employed is not being fully taken into account. Otherwise we would not have attempts at overlaying civilian or religious norms upon this singularly unique, but unfortunately not uncommon, circumstance: war.

Clausewitz wrote that war is "an act of force to compel our enemy to do our will," and is conducted by and between "intelligent forces." That is, there is no war if only one side shows up; and all sides are thinking, feeling, and discerning beings. It seems that we have several �intelligent forces� showing up at the party in Iraq.

Furthermore, he considered the conduct of war to be neither a scientific process, nor an artistic process, but rather a process of human interaction. The process of war is much more akin to that of business, or legal proceedings, or politics. One side tries to compel the other to do its will; the other side uses its intellect to react and take independent actions of their own. War is an interaction among humans in which the final outcome is equally dependent on the dynamics of the interaction, as on the skills of the combatants.

Regardless of whether you do, or do not, support the U.S. military involvement in Iraq, if you want to influence the conduct of this war, if you want to impact the actions and reactions of this war, then become one of the �intelligent forces� participating in the process.

However, before you do, take a close look at what your own personal resources are supporting. You may already be an �intelligent force� participating in the Iraqi human interaction by profiting from, or (mis)using the resources acquired through, or enjoying the lifestyle provided by, this process (i.e. war).

A little scenario for you. If the Soviet Union had somehow succesfully invaded the US, and many Americans started to collaborate with them, enrolling in militias and police brigades, taking their orders directly from the Soviets, do you think there would be no Americans who would kill their collaborating kin?

Well if the masses were unhappy with the American rule and the soviets were going to put into palce a better government, would you kill people that, bottom line, were trying to make your country better? Those people who are killing their "collaborating kin" are saddam loyalists that WANT to see their country destroyed. Like hitler gave the order to TRASH germany when it was apparent he was loosing, theese people dont give a crap about their "kin" or their own country. All they care is that sadam is not in power and we were responsible for that and they want to drag us through the dirt for that, even if it means killing their own kin

Originally posted by bigtex007
Ya this is "operation iraqi freedom" at work....what a filthy disgrace

I second that. One of the many reasons Canada isn't at war with Iraq.

It continues to amaze me how quickly this 'whatdyamycallit' morphs from liberation to invasion, from invasion to terrorism, from terrorism to insurgency, from insurgency right back again to war.

And all the while the band marches to the pipers call.

Don�t try reversing the scenarios on them to try and give them some kind of perspective.

For that to work, it seems you actually have to give a feck for life outside of your own in the first place.

My apologies, I seem to have missed out the first time this was considered 'war' instead of liberation. Never mind, I'm sure it'll be fitted in somewhere.

EDIT: I spit on sarcasm smilies!!!

[edit on 11-8-2004 by kegs]

My opinions:
Killing kids who pose a threat(shooting at soldiers, potential suicide bomber,etc.) is fine sodomizing them for "intelligence" is not. I dont care what anyone says there are no justifiable reasons to sodomize or sexually humiliate someone.
Torture of any kind is not something I want even vaguely associated with my country. Call me naive but America in my opinion is supposed to be an model of freedom and justice to the rest of the world. Maybe the reason American popularity is so low lately is because we havent been living up to our own image.
The reason many liberals view conservatives as evil is because many conservatives seem to willing to sacrifice freedom and justice for expediency. There is no better example of this then "the outrage over the outrage" people express regarding Abu Ghraib. The excuse given is that this a warzone and its only being done because we have no other way of protecting our troops and our nation. Well call me liberal but I for one would rather die and be remembered as a just righteous man then live and be viewed as corrupt and wicked. .

Originally posted by boogyman
Well call me liberal but I for one would rather die and be remembered as a just righteous man then live and be viewed as corrupt and wicked. .

... and I, by your side.

U.

Originally posted by RealisticPatriot

A little scenario for you. If the Soviet Union had somehow succesfully invaded the US, and many Americans started to collaborate with them, enrolling in militias and police brigades, taking their orders directly from the Soviets, do you think there would be no Americans who would kill their collaborating kin?

Well if the masses were unhappy with the American rule and the soviets were going to put into palce a better government, would you kill people that, bottom line, were trying to make your country better? Those people who are killing their "collaborating kin" are saddam loyalists that WANT to see their country destroyed. Like hitler gave the order to TRASH germany when it was apparent he was loosing, theese people dont give a crap about their "kin" or their own country. All they care is that sadam is not in power and we were responsible for that and they want to drag us through the dirt for that, even if it means killing their own kin

My point was that the insurgency certainly is a popular movement, regardless of the many outsiders who have come to further their terrorist agendas, and regardless of the loyalists.

The article posted with the interview of the biology student proves this, as if it needed proving. Iraqis who have nothing to do with Saddam (who hated him), and who have nothing to do with terrorism, have picked up arms to fight our troops.

War is war: once you have picked up arms, if you are faced by one of your kin whose American-given orders are to shoot you, you either shoot him or get killed.

You can say that the foreigners who have come to fight in Iraq might not care so much about Iraq, but to say that of all insurgents is nonsense. When you understand that your perception of our 'beneficial' presence is not shared by these insurgents, you will be able to understand that they do care about their country. Until then, you will always perceive this as us=good, anyone-who-fights-us=bad.

U.



[edit on 11-8-2004 by upuaut]

These are the results of America's first-ever pre-emptive war, war without immediate threat from our enemy. The very thought that an impoverished country 8,000 miles from US territory that posesses no WMDs or delivery systems, and never showed or stated hostility to our country, is a threat to us, is absolutely ridiculous. The idea of attacking that country is sickening. The results are putrid.

This makes me sick.

The US at this point is no better than facist Italy invading Ethiopia. We invaded a country that doesn't even have an air force.

Then, the weapons were never found. So the rationale was switched to 'liberating the country.' One of the tortures we were liberating them from were the much-touted state-sponsored 'rape rooms.' Well, we're not sure if they existed during Saddam's reign, but here we have photographic and video evidence that they exist under our reign.

And all these deplorable acts, only deplorable because they were unfortunate enough to be photographed, were conducted by 'a few bad apples.'

Uh huh.

There's an axiom. It comes from Russia, I believe: The fish rots from the head. The wild excess of national guardsmen from West Virginia and their not-so-photogenic military intelligence buddies started at the very head of this country, who pushed for a quick, undermanned war and for 'intelligence' from any source, including torture.

Photos of Iraqis being tortured like this... If I went abroad to another country right now I'd say I'm Canadian. Previously I've always been proud to say I'm an American no matter where I went. The US is turning inside out and I feel like a foreigner in my own country.

Operation Iraqi Freedom. What a crock.

[edit on 12-8-2004 by taibunsuu]

Well shame on you - I am proud to be British and a key ally of the USA.

What shames me are those who posses UK pasports but are not "British" in any way - Muslims who support our enemies and left wingers who want the downfall of the government becuase it wanted to rid the world of the mass murderer Saddam and rmeove the Taliban from Afganistan.

Seems like the US has it's share of those kind of people too!

If you are not proud to be from the country of citizenship/Birth you should leave it - why not try and live in one of the Islamic theoc-crazies? you will soon learn what REAL oppression is all about!

Originally posted by crmanager
Koka, YES... the coalition are kind understanding heros sent to liberate an oppressed country.

There is no attempt to steal oil. There is no imperialism. But I am wasting my breath. You want to hate Bush and America and nothing will change your mind. Bush could cure cancer and you would say he took too long.

And no I am in Ohio. Nice and safe. I was in another conflict. Panama. You remember? The other imperialist invasion?

Then maybe they should act responsibly, if they want to lead Iraq into a democracy and not hypocrisy, you do it by setting an example.

As for hating Bush and America, well, it's actually the administration and supporters of, that I hate, and thats not really a strong enough word. In fact on occasion even some of the supporters can show that they are in touch with some form of reality.

I assumed that when you said you'd kill anyone that threatened your country, you must have been in either Iraq or Saudi Arabia, unless you were just giving it the biggun'.

[edit on 12-8-2004 by Koka]

Originally posted by taibunsuu

Photos of Iraqis being tortured like this... If I went abroad to another country right now I'd say I'm Canadian. Previously I've always been proud to say I'm an American no matter where I went. The US is turning inside out and I feel like a foreigner in my own country.

Operation Iraqi Freedom. What a crock.

[edit on 12-8-2004 by taibunsuu]

I hear you, Tai.
Your ability to voice this spells hope that the US will once again be a nation to be proud of in the future.

U.

[edit on 12-8-2004 by upuaut]

Originally posted by crossfire
Well shame on you - I am proud to be British and a key ally of the USA.

What shames me are those who posses UK pasports but are not "British" in any way - Muslims who support our enemies and left wingers who want the downfall of the government becuase it wanted to rid the world of the mass murderer Saddam and rmeove the Taliban from Afganistan.

Seems like the US has it's share of those kind of people too!

If you are not proud to be from the country of citizenship/Birth you should leave it - why not try and live in one of the Islamic theoc-crazies? you will soon learn what REAL oppression is all about!

Are you proud of everything the UK does? Are you proud of everything your lord and mast... sorry, I meant the USA... does ?

If so, the shame is on you. Blind loyalty is blindness.

U.

crossfire,

One thing is to be proud of the country in wish you were born or raised and another been proud of what your country does.

It is a fine line there, I am very proud to be an American but I am not proud of how our present administration is doing in America, does that make me a traitor?

No, I think no, it only prove that I have the choice to approved or disapproved what my elected officials are doing in the name of my nation and me as a citizen of this nation.

I know you did not refer to me but I wanted to said this.

Originally posted by crossfire
Well shame on you - I am proud to be British and a key ally of the USA.

What shames me are those who posses UK pasports but are not "British" in any way - Muslims who support our enemies and left wingers who want the downfall of the government becuase it wanted to rid the world of the mass murderer Saddam and rmeove the Taliban from Afganistan.

Seems like the US has it's share of those kind of people too!

If you are not proud to be from the country of citizenship/Birth you should leave it - why not try and live in one of the Islamic theoc-crazies? you will soon learn what REAL oppression is all about!

If you always pledge allegience to your country, right or wrong, guess what, your country will eventually do wrong because no one says different.

I served in the USMC for many years, and guess what, my allegience is to the American Dream - not the actions of a crazy guy dry drunk who can barely speak who I didn't vote for. I pay taxes and am a citizen and sometimes my country does the wrong thing and I call it. Saving Europe from Nazis is American - so-called 'pre-emptive warfare' is not American and I'm not afraid to point that out. Why be proud of your country if it's doing the absolute worst thing? That'd be insane.

Originally posted by crossfire
Well shame on you - I am proud to be British and a key ally of the USA.

What shames me are those who posses UK pasports but are not "British" in any way - Muslims who support our enemies and left wingers who want the downfall of the government becuase it wanted to rid the world of the mass murderer Saddam and rmeove the Taliban from Afganistan.

Seems like the US has it's share of those kind of people too!

If you are not proud to be from the country of citizenship/Birth you should leave it - why not try and live in one of the Islamic theoc-crazies? you will soon learn what REAL oppression is all about!

Thats the problem, the world is not Black and White, which is how you seem to have simplified your thoughts, I guess it's easier if you can categorise people into 2 groups rather than the thousands that actually exist.

I too was happy to see Saddam go, but if you really believe thats the reason we went there, then you've been hoodwinked. The US does not go into conflict unless it gains economically, and Iraq was ripe for the picking.

Being a Left Winger, surely I should be happy to have the government that we do, but how can I be proud of my country when the ruling government does not represent my ideals.

As for leaving the country in which I was born, and to have all those that oppose the government disappear to some far off land, well I'm sure this would suit their aims, but I have a responsibility to ensure that corrupt governments and officials answer for their actions.

I'm proud to be the individual that I am.

Not liking government policy (it's a democracy) and supporting the enemies of your country. Adopting positions that gives succor to people who would happily kill you, your family, your friends and their families and all Americans (if they could).

I am sure there are plenty of valid reasons not to like The President and the Government. However, supporting the enemy is NOT valid in any circumstances.

crossfire:

I have no doubt that most of these "kids" are proto-criminals and future suicide bombers - perhaps America is saving lives in the future by being tough in the present.

So, what are you saying? May as well rape and torture and kill these kids anyway, because they MAY turn out to be ANTI-AMERICAN? Wow, I pray to God you never have kids.

There is a big difference between.....

Not liking government policy (it's a democracy) and supporting the enemies of your country. Adopting positions that gives succor to people who would happily kill you, your family, your friends and their families and all Americans (if they could).

I am sure there are plenty of valid reasons not to like The President and the Government. However, supporting the enemy is NOT valid in any circumstances.

I totally disagree. I don't like US governmental policy and I AGREE with most of the Iraqi gripes.

It's their country, their land, their oil, and nobody ever asked the US to invade and occupy their country. Nobody.

If your argument is "Well, terrible things happen in war, and this is just further evidence of that", then let me remind you something.

The Bush Adminstration started this fiasco, they STARTED the war, they dropped the first bombs, so it is 100% the United States' fault and your responsibilty for every single death that occurs because of it, on both sides.


And you know what, these people whom I identify with (the Iraqi people, not any fanatical suicide bomber) are NOT the enemy. I support them, morally. (Not financially or in any other way, just because I wouldn't donate to an aid organization for Iraqis unless I was 100% positive how the money would be used)

What would you do if your country was invaded by another country with a hugely different culture, and your country was occupied for more than a year by troops who accidentally kill members of your family and who have absolutely no respect for your culture, language and history? A country that brings in its own companies to take away your businesses.

Would you just lie down and take it? Sit around and drink tea while waiting for it to get better?

Tell you what I'd do. I'd do what I could to pressure these troops to get the hell out of my country. If it didn't work by public pressure or by peaceful means, I'd see what I could do to join some underground movement and disrupt the occupation.

And if any of those foreign, occupying troops die, better them than MY people.

Now, is that an unreasonable thing to say? Didn't the Poles in Warsaw do the exact thing in WWII? The Vietnamese?

If the US was invaded and occupied, wouldn't the same thing be happening?

You like to think of yourselves as the good guys, but that's all it is. You THINKING you're the good guys.

The rest of the world knows better, just from PAYING ATTENTION to what the USA has done to other countries for its' own benefit. Like the entire Abu Ghraib fiasco.

How many got fired? How much "justice" was done? It was only 6 people on their own? Pffft, nobody believes that, and the scandal was totally glossed over in the US media, but not elsewhere. More is coming out about it every day.

But stay tuned for more news on Laci Peterson and Kobe Bryant on CNN.







[edit on 12-8-2004 by Jakomo]

Originally posted by crossfire
Not liking government policy (it's a democracy) and supporting the enemies of your country. Adopting positions that gives succor to people who would happily kill you, your family, your friends and their families and all Americans (if they could).

I am sure there are plenty of valid reasons not to like The President and the Government. However, supporting the enemy is NOT valid in any circumstances.

A misconception the pro-war brigade tend to have, is that if you oppose the actions of the government, you automatically condone the actions of those they are at war with. A point better shown in the above post.

A prime example being "You are either with us or against us"

I reiterate, the world is not Black and White, it's just easier for those that can't be bothered, to break the world down into simplified categories.

[edit on 12-8-2004 by Koka]