The Free Land Act of 2011

Originally posted by Nosred
A society where everyone has to farm to feed themselves can not sustain itself. It is incredibly naive to say otherwise.

It wouldn't be able to sustain itself as the society it is today, but it would survive.

I think it would be more fun too.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Any one who has ever had a steady job where they do hard manual labor knows the benefits of working. They know the feeling of accomplishment and satisfaction and the improvement to their health and well-being that comes from doing work. It's like God's way of telling you you were meant to work. We have hands for a reason.

Working DOES make you happy.

Only words I can think of is brain washed. Wait weak minded also comes. That's what you need to feel accomplishment and satisfaction? I feel sorry for you.

We should be focusing on a society where most labor is done for us so we can actually enjoy our lives how WE want. If you wanna do hard labor, go for it, but most of us just want to live socially, see the world, and learn all we can. along with entertainment along the way. Your system goes backwards in almost every way.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

It wouldn't be able to sustain itself as the society it is today, but it would survive.

I think it would be more fun too.

Millions of people starving to death and living in poverty is "fun" to you? You have a very disturbed mind.

Originally posted by ohhwataloser

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Any one who has ever had a steady job where they do hard manual labor knows the benefits of working. They know the feeling of accomplishment and satisfaction and the improvement to their health and well-being that comes from doing work. It's like God's way of telling you you were meant to work. We have hands for a reason.

Working DOES make you happy.

Only words I can think of is brain washed. Wait weak minded also comes. That's what you need to feel accomplishment and satisfaction? I feel sorry for you.

We should be focusing on a society where most labor is done for us so we can actually enjoy our lives how WE want. If you wanna do hard labor, go for it, but most of us just want to live socially, see the world, and learn all we can. along with entertainment along the way. Your system goes backwards in almost every way.

If it weren't for work, you wouldn't have anything you enjoy today. This is the thought that brings about satisfaction. Only words I can think of is La Zy. What do you do for entertainment??? Play video games? Watch T.V. Yeah I can see how you get a sense of accomplishment when you get past level 8 on super mario. You sure did contribute to a realistic society there.

No son, when you do hard work, like construction, and you see a structure that you contributed to building, that's accomplishment. You came together with your peers to make something useful that someone can use to make their lives better. That's accomplishment AND comraderie. And you're damn right it feels good.

If you ever get to the point where all your work is done for you, let me know, so I can come in and take over your whole planet, cause you would have surely forgotten how to get things done on your own.

It is I who feel sorry for you. As I feel sorry for all the sheep. It's sheep like you that need a shepherd and that's why this would never work, because sheep like you are afraid to break away from the pack and claim your sovereignity. What a shame.

Originally posted by Nosred

Originally posted by smithjustinb

It wouldn't be able to sustain itself as the society it is today, but it would survive.

I think it would be more fun too.

Millions of people starving to death and living in poverty is "fun" to you? You have a very disturbed mind.

Is that what I said?

What I meant was:
Maybe we could all work together for the greater good of all without someone restricting our freedom for the greater good of the few. Maybe this land is your land this land is my land from california to the new york islands. Maybe that's just a song to get us to believe that we have it good here. Talk about brain-washing. This land was made for you and me, but unfortunately big government and big business have taken it over and have not been very fair with it. This is really all I'm saying.

I'm also saying it's possible to work out a system where we become freer than we've ever been which includes more free things. And I do not want you to attribute that to socialism. However, socialism is based on a positive vision it just get corrupted somewhere along the line.

Property lines are invisible, just like a lot of other things we believe in and attribute value to. Like the gold backing the dollar. It's invisible.

reply to post by smithjustinb


Careful now you are confusing the sheep and making them nervous, you are making too much sense here. S&F sometimes the solution is too simple. There are those who would not want to live on a small farm and that is fine but if we eliminated all the fraud mortgages the economy would surge back to life. And those who are saying they would fight this cause they like thier national parks think a little not everyone would take up every piece of dirt in the country.

The OP is on the right track we need to get the damn banksters out of our lives one way or another.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Also, some people say 3 acres isn't enough to have an adequate farm, but what's to stop me and my good neighbor from sharing land and having 6 acres?

It's not about ownership of land, it's about sharing land. There wouldn't be anything to legally stop me from planting crops on your 3 acres or letting my cattle graze in your field anyway, but why would anyone want to. It's for the benefit of all. You could even be entitled to my crops and livestock upon a reasonable agreement.

I'm down with that.

Ever heard of the western "range wars" in the U.S.? sheep herders vs cattle ranchers?Both vying for the same grazing lands.?????????


"free land" is NOT a civil right. Repeatedly claiming such does not make it so; there was a famous book during the emergence of the self-sufficiency/homesteading ( moth earth news) movement Called:
"10 Acres enough"...
10acres was determined to be barely enough for highly-skilled "micro farmers" applying themselves under the best conditions..

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by civilchallenger
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

Here is an offer, and here is my challenge. I could find you 3 full acres of land to work next spring. I could also find you a plot of land for either free or really cheap (~$10,000) where you can build a small house and not pay property taxes. You're definitely single since you have all day to farm land and build houses, so you can build a very small house and you'd be fine. Are you ready to start next spring?

After getting all that stuff for free, you can help the next person build their house and purchase their plot of land. If you think you're idea is so great then pack up your bags and move immediately. I'll even give you 40 hours of free labor to get started with. I'm completely clueless about farming and construction but that doesn't seem to matter to you since you think everyone can grow their own food and build their own house, with enough time left over for a part-time job for stuff like flat-screen TVs and such.

If you think you're idea is really that great, you'll take me up on my offer. I expect an answer of "hell no!" because I don't think you've got one of those ideas that you think are the best in the world on the internet but when it gets down to real life you actually already know its a pie in the sky nonsense.

You really are a civil challenger aren't you.

Seriously though, I really believe in making the world a better place, and I am simply offering a solution that I see promising. Wouldn't it be great if it could work? Yes it would. So why don't you spend your energy here and tell me why you think it won't, and I'll argue with you and tell you why I think it will. Make sure you think your opinion throught before you put it on here, and be able to demonstrate effectively how it won't.

There are a million and one good ideas created every day. Ideas are not good enough. What counts is action. Your idea seems like a good idea, and maybe it can work using a pay-it-forward system where the people who carve out a successful plan put efforts into making it work for the next guy who wants to become a part of it.

I see lots of very grand plans announced on ATS but never once have I seen someone put their words into action. So, the reason I think your idea won't work is because I don't think you're willing to do what it takes to make it work. I'll give you a 50/50 chance of success if you actually try it out. Like I said... I can help you get cheap free acres of land + very cheap land where you can build a house.

I have lots of grand plans too. But I don't bother mentioning them on ATS because I'm just going to go ahead and try a few things... then let people know the results. If my plans work, then people will hop on the bandwagon. If this is something you actually plan to do then I'll give you all the feedback you could ever ask for on getting it working. But if not, then its not something that impresses me any.

I love offering people challenges on ATS and for some reason I can't imagine only once has anyone ever accepted the challenge. Both me and the person accepting the challenge learned a lot of interesting things as a result.

You are right to detect cynicism but its not cynicism of the idea. Its cynicism of people who spend their whole life dreaming up grand plans but never put the sweat, blood, and tears into executing any of them. Next weekend I'll be moving forward in execution of one of my "pie in the sky ideas". I'll be out and about doing what you could call "community activism" What will you be doing? Dreaming about your grand plan?

Originally posted by 46ACE

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Also, some people say 3 acres isn't enough to have an adequate farm, but what's to stop me and my good neighbor from sharing land and having 6 acres?

It's not about ownership of land, it's about sharing land. There wouldn't be anything to legally stop me from planting crops on your 3 acres or letting my cattle graze in your field anyway, but why would anyone want to. It's for the benefit of all. You could even be entitled to my crops and livestock upon a reasonable agreement.

I'm down with that.

Ever heard of the western "range wars" in the U.S.? sheep herders vs cattle ranchers?Both vying for the same grazing lands.?????????



"free land" is NOT a civil right. Repeatedly claiming such does not make it so there was afamous book during the emergence of the self-sufficiency/homesteading ( moth earth news movement) Called:
"10 Acres enough"...
10acres was determined to be barely enough for highly-skilled "micro farmers" applying themselves under the best conditions..

edit on 20-6-2011 by 46ACE because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-6-2011 by 46ACE because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-6-2011 by 46ACE because: (no reason given)

I mean I guess there are risks of violence in any society. Free fertile land fairly distributed and accommodations made for today's modern industrial/mass production society ARE a HUMAN or as you said "civil" right.

reply to post by smithjustinb


Actually there is a law called the desert land act where you can claim up to 360 acres of arrid land and if you develop like 10% of it for agriculture or cattle within 5 years then it is yours.

www.talewins.com...

I thought about doing this and even getting about five families together and claim land back to back so we could share expenses and equipment in getting the land up to speed. I talked to some folks at the BLM but they referred me to another guy who knows more about it but I haven't talked to him on it yet. They say it cost millions to do but I think it could be done a pretty cheap. They are talking about paying for agricultural wells to be dug and clearing and grading for pasture and fields etc. with big scrapers and stuff. But if you build rain water cisterns and left the natural contour mostly and just cleared brush you could do that with a medium size dozer. Use permaculture techniques etc. it could be done for a song.

The only thing that makes me leery is you are at the mercy of a government bureaucrat on whether you have met the requirements or not at five years and you never know what politics are involved so I'd hate to put a bunch of work into a place and have them deny your claim after 5 years. However I was thinking you could buy a couple acres backed up to your claim and build your house and stuff on that, that way if they denied it you would not loose your house and out buildings etc.

Anyway thought I would mention it here. Would be a possible way to start a self sufficient community for a model of the future.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by Nosred

Originally posted by smithjustinb

It wouldn't be able to sustain itself as the society it is today, but it would survive.

I think it would be more fun too.

Millions of people starving to death and living in poverty is "fun" to you? You have a very disturbed mind.

Is that what I said?

What I meant was:
Maybe we could all work together for the greater good of all without someone restricting our freedom for the greater good of the few. Maybe this land is your land this land is my land from california to the new york islands. Maybe that's just a song to get us to believe that we have it good here. Talk about brain-washing. This land was made for you and me, but unfortunately big government and big business have taken it over and have not been very fair with it. This is really all I'm saying.

I'm also saying it's possible to work out a system where we become freer than we've ever been which includes more free things. And I do not want you to attribute that to socialism. However, socialism is based on a positive vision it just get corrupted somewhere along the line.

Property lines are invisible, just like a lot of other things we believe in and attribute value to. Like the gold backing the dollar. It's invisible.

What about the disabled and those unable to farm their land? Where's all this water for farming going to come from? What if I started hunting near the land you built your house on and killed some of your animals? Since obviously nobody "owns" anything why don't I just move into your house? How about I take your animals away, or better yet your kids since you don't "own" them. All that food you spent all year growing? Yeah, I think I want some of that. Those trees you just cut down? Yeah, I think they'd look better in the house I'm building, they're mine too now.

Don't you see that the system you're proposing is incredibly naive and foolish? You say you don't like big government and big business being "unfair" yet at the same time you're asking them to take away land from people who have worked hard to get that land. Keep drinking deeper into the Bolshevik poison, it won't get you very far.

Originally posted by civilchallenger

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by civilchallenger
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

Here is an offer, and here is my challenge. I could find you 3 full acres of land to work next spring. I could also find you a plot of land for either free or really cheap (~$10,000) where you can build a small house and not pay property taxes. You're definitely single since you have all day to farm land and build houses, so you can build a very small house and you'd be fine. Are you ready to start next spring?

After getting all that stuff for free, you can help the next person build their house and purchase their plot of land. If you think you're idea is so great then pack up your bags and move immediately. I'll even give you 40 hours of free labor to get started with. I'm completely clueless about farming and construction but that doesn't seem to matter to you since you think everyone can grow their own food and build their own house, with enough time left over for a part-time job for stuff like flat-screen TVs and such.

If you think you're idea is really that great, you'll take me up on my offer. I expect an answer of "hell no!" because I don't think you've got one of those ideas that you think are the best in the world on the internet but when it gets down to real life you actually already know its a pie in the sky nonsense.

You really are a civil challenger aren't you.

Seriously though, I really believe in making the world a better place, and I am simply offering a solution that I see promising. Wouldn't it be great if it could work? Yes it would. So why don't you spend your energy here and tell me why you think it won't, and I'll argue with you and tell you why I think it will. Make sure you think your opinion throught before you put it on here, and be able to demonstrate effectively how it won't.

There are a million and one good ideas created every day. Ideas are not good enough. What counts is action. Your idea seems like a good idea, and maybe it can work using a pay-it-forward system where the people who carve out a successful plan put efforts into making it work for the next guy who wants to become a part of it.

I see lots of very grand plans announced on ATS but never once have I seen someone put their words into action. So, the reason I think your idea won't work is because I don't think you're willing to do what it takes to make it work. I'll give you a 50/50 chance of success if you actually try it out. Like I said... I can help you get cheap free acres of land + very cheap land where you can build a house.

I have lots of grand plans too. But I don't bother mentioning them on ATS because I'm just going to go ahead and try a few things... then let people know the results. If my plans work, then people will hop on the bandwagon. If this is something you actually plan to do then I'll give you all the feedback you could ever ask for on getting it working. But if not, then its not something that impresses me any.

I love offering people challenges on ATS and for some reason I can't imagine only once has anyone ever accepted the challenge. Both me and the person accepting the challenge learned a lot of interesting things as a result.

You are right to detect cynicism but its not cynicism of the idea. Its cynicism of people who spend their whole life dreaming up grand plans but never put the sweat, blood, and tears into executing any of them. Next weekend I'll be moving forward in execution of one of my "pie in the sky ideas". I'll be out and about doing what you could call "community activism" What will you be doing? Dreaming about your grand plan?

Fair enough. I don't think I would know where to start or who to write to to get this passed. Nor is my plan that well thought out. That's why I presented it here, to get some constructive criticism so I could learn what additions or subtractions I need to add to or subtract from the plan to present it to the right people.

Personally, I do try to set a good example by just being me. I go out of my way sometimes to do things for other people.

Honestly, I don't have that much faith my plan being something that would ever be seriously considered by the people who have the power to make it so. This is because the people who have the power to make it so enjoy their power and this kind of thinking is a threat to their power. So all I can really do is plant the idea and hope it grows and reaches places that I can't. Hopefully someone who agrees with something I say is good friends with a congressman or something. Other than that, I am leading by example. I plant some of my own food and I work in construction, so at least I'm coming from a place that when I say it is possible to be that kind of person who does these things to survive, you might believe it.

Originally posted by Nosred

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by Nosred

Originally posted by smithjustinb

It wouldn't be able to sustain itself as the society it is today, but it would survive.

I think it would be more fun too.

Millions of people starving to death and living in poverty is "fun" to you? You have a very disturbed mind.

Is that what I said?

What I meant was:
Maybe we could all work together for the greater good of all without someone restricting our freedom for the greater good of the few. Maybe this land is your land this land is my land from california to the new york islands. Maybe that's just a song to get us to believe that we have it good here. Talk about brain-washing. This land was made for you and me, but unfortunately big government and big business have taken it over and have not been very fair with it. This is really all I'm saying.

I'm also saying it's possible to work out a system where we become freer than we've ever been which includes more free things. And I do not want you to attribute that to socialism. However, socialism is based on a positive vision it just get corrupted somewhere along the line.

Property lines are invisible, just like a lot of other things we believe in and attribute value to. Like the gold backing the dollar. It's invisible.

What about the disabled and those unable to farm their land? Where's all this water for farming going to come from? What if I started hunting near the land you built your house on and killed some of your animals? Since obviously nobody "owns" anything why don't I just move into your house? How about I take your animals away, or better yet your kids since you don't "own" them. All that food you spent all year growing? Yeah, I think I want some of that. Those trees you just cut down? Yeah, I think they'd look better in the house I'm building, they're mine too now.

Don't you see that the system you're proposing is incredibly naive and foolish? You say you don't like big government and big business being "unfair" yet at the same time you're asking them to take away land from people who have worked hard to get that land. Keep drinking deeper into the Bolshevik poison, it won't get you very far.

Perhaps somewhat naive, but not foolish at all. I think you are being a little extreme. I just said you don't own land, not my kids, and not my house.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
I say it is possible to be that kind of person who does these things to survive, you might believe it.

Alright then I propose a challenge, go buy three acres of land, build your own house there using only the materials on that land, eat only what you produce yourself, and buy nothing from any kind of store. If you can do all these things for say, a year then your plan might hold some weight. Until you do that though you can't argue in favor of your plan, you kind of have to practice what you preach.

Originally posted by Nosred

Originally posted by smithjustinb
I say it is possible to be that kind of person who does these things to survive, you might believe it.

Alright then I propose a challenge, go buy three acres of land, build your own house there using only the materials on that land, eat only what you produce yourself, and buy nothing from any kind of store. If you can do all these things for say, a year then your plan might hold some weight. Until you do that though you can't argue in favor of your plan, you kind of have to practice what you preach.

I would be wasting my time. I already have a house and a garden. Maybe if I was homeless and all I could afford was 3 acres of land, I would accept your challenge, but your doubt in my plan is leading you to post unrealistic scenarios, so if you think my plan is unrealistic, how are you helping make a good plan by posting more unrealistic things here?

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Perhaps somewhat naive, but not foolish at all. I think you are being a little extreme. I just said you don't own land, not my kids, and not my house.

How can nobody own land, but own the things built on that land? If you build a house on land you don't own, then nothings stopping me from moving into your house. If you grow crops on land you don't own, nothings stopping me from picking those crops and eating them myself.

Not to mention that a society where everyone is a farmer can't sustain itself, even the communists knew that.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
I would be wasting my time. I already have a house and a garden. Maybe if I was homeless and all I could afford was 3 acres of land, I would accept your challenge, but your doubt in my plan is leading you to post unrealistic scenarios, so if you think my plan is unrealistic, how are you helping make a good plan by posting more unrealistic things here?

Until you do all the things you're talking about, your plan is stupid. You can't say "everyone should live off the land and grow their own food and build their own houses and make their own clothes and have no form of infrastructure or currency" if don't do all those things yourself. It's just hypocritical, and it's hypocritical to call people greedy for wanting to be able to own land.

"Just as man can’t exist without his body, so no rights can exist without the right to translate one’s rights into reality—to think, to work and to keep the results—which means: the right of property. The modern mystics of muscle who offer you the fraudulent alternative of “human rights” versus “property rights,” as if one could exist without the other, are making a last, grotesque attempt to revive the doctrine of soul versus body. Only a ghost can exist without material property; only a slave can work with no right to the product of his effort. The doctrine that “human rights” are superior to “property rights” simply means that some human beings have the right to make property out of others; since the competent have nothing to gain from the incompetent, it means the right of the incompetent to own their betters and to use them as productive cattle. Whoever regards this as human and right, has no right to the title of “human.”

The source of property rights is the law of causality. All property and all forms of wealth are produced by man’s mind and labor. As you cannot have effects without causes, so you cannot have wealth without its source: without intelligence. You cannot force intelligence to work: those who’re able to think, will not work under compulsion; those who will, won’t produce much more than the price of the whip needed to keep them enslaved. You cannot obtain the products of a mind except on the owner’s terms, by trade and by volitional consent. Any other policy of men toward man’s property is the policy of criminals, no matter what their numbers. Criminals are savages who play it short-range and starve when their prey runs out—just as you’re starving today, you who believed that crime could be “practical” if your government decreed that robbery was legal and resistance to robbery illegal." - Ayn Rand

reply to post by smithjustinb


That was Thomas Jefferson's ideal Agrarian nation. It's an ideal America. But many would sell their land for a bigger house in a smaller plot of land and use their wealth to have others do the farm work for them. Come to think of it, that's how slavery started in the south.

Originally posted by civilchallenger
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

Here is an offer, and here is my challenge. I could find you 3 full acres of land to work next spring. I could also find you a plot of land for either free or really cheap (~$10,000) where you can build a small house and not pay property taxes. You're definitely single since you have all day to farm land and build houses, so you can build a very small house and you'd be fine. Are you ready to start next spring?

After getting all that stuff for free, you can help the next person build their house and purchase their plot of land. If you think you're idea is so great then pack up your bags and move immediately. I'll even give you 40 hours of free labor to get started with. I'm completely clueless about farming and construction but that doesn't seem to matter to you since you think everyone can grow their own food and build their own house, with enough time left over for a part-time job for stuff like flat-screen TVs and such.

If you think you're idea is really that great, you'll take me up on my offer. I expect an answer of "hell no!" because I don't think you've got one of those ideas that you think are the best in the world on the internet but when it gets down to real life you actually already know its a pie in the sky nonsense.

Where is this land?
I will take you up on this.... Give me that land,,, and if you want you don't even have to wait til next spring. I will go right now. I think I could do well as long as there are No Restrictions on it.