A Question (or two) for Atheists..

If non locality (see Bell's Theorem) and evolutionary theory must be accepted as facts, then how are we, the human being, as the furthermost creative expression or leading shoot of evolution's pursuit of and persistent drive towards ever higher (more complex) impressions and levels of consciousness (yes even a single cell could be thought of as an evolutionary expression of a rise towards consciousness) - how are we to find our true nature, our center, our source, and most importantly, our destiny, if we must begin with the fundamental presupposition that any such discovery cannot include a co-creative relationship, in mutuality, with God or the Godhead or a Supreme Being?

In other words, how are we to find God in eternity, as reflected through the eternally unfolding (evolving) present moment of the story of Life as intended by design (rise of consciousness) from "before the very foundations of the world" (in eternity), if we must BEGIN with the presumption that since no God exists "union" or communion with said God is never possible?

Why must we accept a purely materialist worldview and be left alone and set adrift in a senseless and meaningless absurdity, orphaned from our center and source and from a first/last cause, separated, not only from the phenomenal world at large, but also from our fellow man (and even from ourselves, from our true nature) - as a mere "thing" or at best an animal (intermediate phylos) who's sense of personality and of freedom is nothing but an illusion. Are we nothing but skin and bones, a machine, nothing more?

Is that really the extent of our "self" and our human experience? If not, then why would be choose such a paradigm or worldview anyway and in the process deny the very experience or "qualia" that makes us most human?

Why deny a heritage that includes the whole of all creation and an inheritance, in the fullness of time and history, perhaps of even greater value (transcendant)?

Why should we so belittle that which we truly are? I don't get it..

Of course I can understand why some might wish to try to grind the "no God" axe for reasons of anti-religious sentiment, but maybe, in the final analysis and in the grand scheme of things, mankind is in truth not a mere "thing", but instead a process, intrinsic to the very process of evolution, not just on earth, but Cosmologically and therefore even Universally (right across the entire breadth and depth of all being and becoming) - hurtling at last headlong into God-conscious realization and awareness (rediscovering a fundamental relationship with the creative source of all). Perhaps in truth, man contains the universe, perched as he is at the apex of an eternal creative evolutionary process (fresh, most recent ie: the last shall be first and the first, last) and that in truth, the invisible or the interior of reality and existence, the inner being, exceeds by many many orders of magnitude, the first impressioned outer, materialist reality of our apparent subjective experience.

Is it outside of the realm of possible (in eternity all things are possible) that the breadth and depth of the interior reality of the human being self realized or God-realized, contains, imbedded or enfolded within himself, by extension and proportion (see Phi Ratio or Golden Mean), the interior reality or the inner being, of the entire universe - that is if both non-locality and evolutionary theory must be accepted as fact?

Perhaps there really is much MUCH more going on, right before our eyes, than ordinarily or traditionally meets the eye at first glance and that "God" isn't the "God of the gaps" but God of the entire domain of consciousness already always present awaiting man as the mirror image of God's reflection as the creative intent (beginning as always with the end in mind), in mutual discovery, and all manner of shared, intimate, co-creative, participatory fun and enjoyment at ALL levels - the kingdom of heaven if you will, shared in koinonia.

And maybe OUR "goal" if we are to have one, is to become more fully and authentically self expressed, as people, so that in being more fully human we might also radiate ever moreso our true nature as divine, sacred beings, "made" or created and included in eternity, to contain nothing less than the same spirit of the universe already intrinsic to all life and already fully informed through an eternal, non-local, cosmic evolutionary process (see Akashic Field).

Why, if non locality and evolutionary theory must be adopted as fact, must we exclude, a priori, the most fundamental parent-child type relationship (Abba?) when in truth we as human beings are the manifest variable of the supreme value?

Why grind an axe which reduces the human being to a thing, and life itself to a meaningless absurdity without purpose or direction, and without an object of desire to drive our pursuit of continued advancement and evolutionary growth which, for the human being will occurs as much in the realm of the psyche ie: our spiritual nature, as if will in our physical morphology?

"God made our spirit with wings to fly in the spacious firmament of love and freedom. How pitiful it would be then, if we were to lop off our wings by our own hand, and suffer ourselves to crawl like vermine upon the earth!"

~ Khalil Gibran

P.S. There is I believe a "conspiracy" lurking at the heart of this issue, except that it's a flip side of what we might traditionally think of as a "religious conspiracy" - more on this as the discussion/debate ensues.

Best Regards,

NAM

Go Canucks Go!

This forum is not for the general discussion of religious topics

It is a Conspiracy fourm.
Please post to the correct thread.

And at that no one gives a damn if blady blady bla exsits because everyones
busy getting on with their lives and living how they want so no problem with
anyone. No one needs to enforce themselves with ridiculous rules religion
has to offer.
Eye for eye tooth for tooth, you take mine I take yours simple as that.

Yawn yawn yawn. Please get a life. You believe in God fine, carry on, if it makes you happy. I HAVE NEVER NEEDED TO "ASK A BELIEVER" TO JUSTIFY THEMSELVES. Why do you do the same for atheists? Is your faith that weak?

Stop posting provocative threads to try and make yourself feel better in your misguided brainwashed beliefs. If folks like you stopped posting this nonsense folks like me would not reply NOR (VERY IMPORTANT) question your belief here!!!!

Full stop, I don't care. I'm sure you will feel the need to rant sorry reply back but I won't.......because I'm stronger than you.

Then again there is no drive to evolve to a higher state - and it is just chance. Simple, effective, follows good science, doesn't require a suspension of disbelief, or a component of magic. I am absolutely 100% ok with that. You can worry and dissect that all you want, I don't have to, I have a life to live. In the end we will both be dead -- no regrets, no hell, no heaven, actually no nothing.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


No God - No evolution.
Understand God, don't reject it.

there is god sure
i know
atheist will go to hell
im sure
i know
stop trying to save these morons thye deserve whats coming to them

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I am an agnostic theist, and I honestly agree with the sentiment of these questions. Why, indeed, should we totally shut out the possibility of God, denying the possibility of fully understanding the true nature of the universe? Atheists will likely challenge this question saying that any belief in God limits ones ability to understand the universe, that understanding can only possibly come from science. All I can say to them is try to have an open mind, and consider this analogy:

You are a single moving part in a great machine, and you know what you are doing but you don't know why. To know why you perform your motions, you would have to see the whole machine, but you cannot as you are too small. Instead of trying to imagine what this machine might be, you deny its even exists. You see yourself as a single moving part in a chaotic mass of moving parts, each doing something for no reason. You might study the other moving parts, gaining a small understanding of how they work, but you still don't know what its all for. All you can do then is enjoy the repetitive actions you are performing, never understanding why.

Originally posted by malcr
Yawn yawn yawn. Please get a life. You believe in God fine, carry on, if it makes you happy. I HAVE NEVER NEEDED TO "ASK A BELIEVER" TO JUSTIFY THEMSELVES. Why do you do the same for atheists? Is your faith that weak?

Stop posting provocative threads to try and make yourself feel better in your misguided brainwashed beliefs. If folks like you stopped posting this nonsense folks like me would not reply NOR (VERY IMPORTANT) question your belief here!!!!

Full stop, I don't care. I'm sure you will feel the need to rant sorry reply back but I won't.......because I'm stronger than you.

If you don't care, why did you even open the thread? No one is forcing you to read it. The whole point of a forum is discussion. If you don't like the thread topic, simply ignore it.

some of us dont need a blanket to get to sleep at night, most of us just dont believe in bs

Originally posted by Glass

I am an agnostic theist, and I honestly agree with the sentiment of these questions. Why, indeed, should we totally shut out the possibility of God, denying the possibility of fully understanding the true nature of the universe?

Because, God is a man made myth.

You could equally argue, "Why should we deny the possibility of Zeus".

There is no more evidence of God existing than there is of all of Zeus's family existing.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
How are we to find our true nature, our center, our source, and most importantly, our destiny, if we must begin with the fundamental presupposition that any such discovery cannot include a co-creative relationship, in mutuality, with God or the Godhead or a Supreme Being?

"true nature, our center, our source, and most importantly, our destiny"

You're personally defining these to include a god figure. I found my "true nature", for myself as a person in myself and my connections with others. You're taking intangible concepts and involving god in you're own personal spin on them. None of those require god to exist, nor do they really need to exist in the first place.

In other words, how are we to find God in eternity, as reflected through the eternally unfolding (evolving) present moment of the story of Life as intended by design (rise of consciousness) from "before the very foundations of the world" (in eternity), if we must BEGIN with the presumption that since no God exists "union" or communion with said God is never possible?

How does this affect anything? How are you suppose to tap into you're inner wizard without acknowledging that you aren't of muggle blood? How are you suppose to make contact with you're ancestral aliens when you deny their existence?

And most people don't begin with a presumption that no god exists, and I don't support people who do, most reach it by using their logic and the evidence at hand. So if god was actually findable, there would be many less atheists in existence.

Why must we accept a purely materialist worldview and be left alone and set adrift in a senseless and meaningless absurdity, orphaned from our center and source and from a first/last cause, separated, not only from the phenomenal world at large, but also from our fellow man (and even from ourselves, from our true nature) - as a mere "thing" or at best an animal (intermediate phylos) who's sense of personality and of freedom is nothing but an illusion. Are we nothing but skin and bones, a machine, nothing more?

Is that really the extent of our "self" and our human experience? If not, then why would be choose such a paradigm or worldview anyway and in the process deny the very experience or "qualia" that makes us most human?

A life without god is meaningless, one of the worst misconceptions out there. For one, it has no merit as to the existence of god, just whether or not you'd want to believe(and want is a horrible reason to believe something). Also, I can make the most out of my life and experiance true happiness knowing that it will come to an eventual end, that doesn't change anything.

Why deny a heritage that includes the whole of all creation and an inheritance, in the fullness of time and history, perhaps of even greater value (transcendant)?

Why deny the cool things we could do after learning to manipulate the matrix(fly, dodge bullet, ect)? Why not experience the wonders of the Astral relm via Astral Projection?

If something's not real and isn't gonna do you any good, you have many reason to 'deny' it.

Why should we so belittle that which we truly are? I don't get it..

Why not believe we're all immortal gods? That'll really make us seem better than we really are.

Every single point you've mentioned thus far is only relevant if the bible(or other various dogma) is true, so if it isn't, you have no point. Leading an atheist to believe you have no point.

Of course I can understand why some might wish to try to grind the "no God" axe for reasons of anti-religious sentiment,

But you can't understand not believing in something do to an utter lack of evidence?

Is it outside of the realm of possible (in eternity all things are possible) that the breadth and depth of the interior reality of the human being self realized or God-realized, contains, imbedded or enfolded within himself, by extension and proportion (see Phi Ratio or Golden Mean), the interior reality or the inner being, of the entire universe - that is if both non-locality and evolutionary theory must be accepted as fact?

Is Russels Teapot outside the realm of possible? No, not really. Just because something's not impossible doesn't mean it's true. "A wizard did it", "It was all Zeus", "The world was born last tuesday", we can't disprove these, why believe them because of that?

Evolution, is scientifically accepted as fact. It's evolution by natural selection that's a theory, because we don't know all the details. Similar as to how Gravity is a theory because we don't know exactly what causes it to work.

Why grind an axe which reduces the human being to a thing, and life itself to a meaningless absurdity without purpose or direction, and without an object of desire to drive our pursuit of continued advancement and evolutionary growth which, for the human being will occurs as much in the realm of the psyche ie: our spiritual nature, as if will in our physical morphology?

If I go to an amusement park, and no one's in the parking lot and nothings going on in there, I'm going to assume it's closed. Even if it sucks. I'm not "grinding an axe" by believing such. I'm not gonna believe it's still open because I want it to be.

So if you say stuff sucks form an atheist standpoint, that doesn't make a difference. Even if things are worse from such a standpoint, that doesn't mean the standpoint is wrong.

-
Also,

Originally posted by icecold7 there is god sure i know atheist will go to hell im sure i know stop trying to save these morons thye deserve whats coming to them

Thank you. If I believe you'll spend eternity being annoyed from those 2 unicorns in charlie the unicorn, does that make it so too? I have about as much proof you'll have to deal with that as you do I'll be burning.

That is also probably the least Christian quote I've ever heard. I'm sure God's proud of you, but is he automatically proud of you if you believe he is?

-
To sum it up, not a single question poised in this thread was relevant to a world without god, therefore people who see no god aren't going to feel any relevance coming from here. These are questions, this is preaching essentially with question marks at the end.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

If non locality (see Bell's Theorem) and evolutionary theory must be accepted as facts, then how are we, the human being, as the furthermost creative expression or leading shoot of evolution's pursuit of and persistent drive towards ever higher (more complex) impressions and levels of consciousness (yes even a single cell could be thought of as an evolutionary expression of a rise towards consciousness) - how are we to find our true nature, our center, our source, and most importantly, our destiny, if we must begin with the fundamental presupposition that any such discovery cannot include a co-creative relationship, in mutuality, with God or the Godhead or a Supreme Being?

Why should I look to something that I have no belief in to find my true nature, center, source, or destiny?

In other words, how are we to find God in eternity, as reflected through the eternally unfolding (evolving) present moment of the story of Life as intended by design (rise of consciousness) from "before the very foundations of the world" (in eternity), if we must BEGIN with the presumption that since no God exists "union" or communion with said God is never possible?

Why is communion with said God the be all and end all of your existence? When I read a book, I don't have an ending in mind that the story must get to - I let the story unfold and enjoy the journey. When I perform a scientific experiment, I don't have a conclusion in mind that the data must reflect - I let the data unfold and try to understand it.

Why must we accept a purely materialist worldview and be left alone and set adrift in a senseless and meaningless absurdity, orphaned from our center and source and from a first/last cause, separated, not only from the phenomenal world at large, but also from our fellow man (and even from ourselves, from our true nature) - as a mere "thing" or at best an animal (intermediate phylos) who's sense of personality and of freedom is nothing but an illusion. Are we nothing but skin and bones, a machine, nothing more?

Why must I accept a God in order to have meaning in my life?

I've read the rest of your post and, honestly, I'm too bored by it to continue replying. All you're really getting at, albeit in an incredibly polite and incredibly verbose way, is that you don't think atheists can possibly value anything because all value comes from the quest to understand or know God.

Maybe if more theists talked a little less and listened a little more, they'd realize that "atheist" isn't equivalent to "nihilist".

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
how are we to find our true nature, our center, our source, and most importantly, our destiny, if we must begin with the fundamental presupposition that any such discovery cannot include a co-creative relationship, in mutuality, with God or the Godhead or a Supreme Being?

You ask how we can find our true nature without a God.
I ask why do you assume a god is necessary for such a task?

Your post is full of assumptions:
That there is a God
That we need him to find our true nature
That there is an intention behind our design
That union or communion with "God" is possible
That all atheists have a purely materialist worldview
That our existence is a 'senseless and meaningless absurdity'

In fact, your questions all assume a God. Asking atheists questions that assume the existence of God is really confusing to me.

Why should we so belittle that which we truly are? I don't get it..

You really don't.

The threat of going to hell is only good if there is a hell. It is a pity to waste a life preparing for something that is non existent. When all is done I will have a had a very full and rewarding life -- you will have your bags packed ready to move on to something better.. We will both be just dead.

Why is it believers have so much trouble understanding the concept of non-belief. It's amazing that it such a problem -- it is really quite simple. Life is what it is or what you make of it. No more no less. Some people have better lives than others. Praying or believing does not change things even one tiny iota. I actually believe that the supernatural belief thing is some primal survival mechanism that hasn't quite evolved itself away yet; until that happens I wish you guys would stay away from politics.

I have far more important things to worry about than whether or not my life and actions will bring me closer to meeting some supernatural entity when i die.

You might as well spend your life working towards the goal of riding the giant teapot in the sky to the mystical land of the fairies!

Seriously, if you need some imaginary super being to feel worthy then fine, believe all you want.
Personally I find self worth in bringing up my kids, and having fun with those i love.....if that isn't enough of a goal for a believer then i pity you all!

(apologies if i offended anyone who believes in fairies)

Originally posted by Logical one

Originally posted by Glass

I am an agnostic theist, and I honestly agree with the sentiment of these questions. Why, indeed, should we totally shut out the possibility of God, denying the possibility of fully understanding the true nature of the universe?

Because, God is a man made myth.

You could equally argue, "Why should we deny the possibility of Zeus".

There is no more evidence of God existing than there is of all of Zeus's family existing.

edit on 15-6-2011 by Logical one because: (no reason given)

I assume that you're assuming that when I say God I mean Yahweh/Allah, the God of the major religions of today. If I'm correct, then I would agree with you; God is a myth. In fact, these belief systems not only do little to advance humanity's spiritual growth, they actively inhibit it, by telling you not to ask questions, to just accept that God loves you and you are doing what is needed. It does not help us reach an understanding of any divine power in the universe.

Neither Religion nor Atheism should stop us from speculating, asking questions, seeking the truth.

Interesting replies, thank you all.

But I'm not sure you're understanding the premise here in terms of the context and frame of reference. No time right now, but I'll come back and try to clarify what I was trying to get at.

Best Regards,

NAM

reply to post by foreshadower99

Given time I could have shown the conspiracy inherent in the topic at hand. Thanks for your support, and the "eye for an eye" worldview. Very helpful.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


You are presenting 'gnostic atheism' as your shadow sparring-partner, and your arguments demonstrate your own inclination towards 'gnostic theism'.

By ignoring the much more common 'agnostic atheism', you have orchestrated a scenario, where you (badly disguised) can rehash 'intelligent design' and other theist oddities.

But I'll join you in your cosmetic 'maybes' and say: "MAYBE it was the flying spaghetti monster what did it"