Is the Statue of Liberty Masonic?

You still don't get it. Similar symbolism or artists that just happen to be Masons, doesn't mean the art is Masonic. The food I make isn't Masonic because I'm a Mason. The papers I write, the designs I draw are not Masonic simply because I am a Mason. There must be intent. You have yet to establish that. You think simply that because we're Masons that our entire lives revolves around it. It doesn't. Is it a great aspect of my life. Sure, but it's not all consuming. If there is work or family, I'm there and not at a Masonic function.

You constantly use non-sequitur arguments so much that you degrade the value of the post (if any existed). You are so obsessed with blaming problems on us, it doesn't border obsession, it's obsession bordering fanaticism. You are so intolerant of those that don't live your view of what is proper and you don't like it. You want the world to live in your bubble and things you cannot understand (not from ignorance, but from hate) you seek to destroy. You are not here for truth, you are here to prove your side. You want your opinion to be considered truth and wish for opposition to be considered heretical for daring to disagree. Network Dude started this thread and still maintains the idea that he doesn't know if the Statue is Masonic or not. You use misguided and false sources for your "Masonic" knowledge and that combined with your already biased religious views shows that you cannot logically or rationally debate this issue or that you wish to.

I find it offensive that you think you can tell us what our symbols mean and what our organization is, and does, when you no truly nothing of Freemasonry. You have never experienced this. You have never gone through the rituals and do not know their context and intent. You sit as an outsider looking in. Such can be said for anything. I mean look at if someone didn't know anything about Christianity, but heard about this group who heard about the ritualistic cannibalism of those weird Christians.

I also find it offensive that you think you have the authority to define one's relationship with their Creator, with their God. Who are you to do such a thing?! You have no authority to do such a thing and to say otherwise is blasphemy as you are not God nor do you know his opinion of me.

Originally posted by KSigMason
You still don't get it. Similar symbolism or artists that just happen to be Masons, doesn't mean the art is Masonic.

It's masonic made by french masons, she holds a masonic plumb line, depicted along with father time.

The food I make isn't Masonic because I'm a Mason.

www.masonicjewelryblog.com...
The Significance of the Plumb Line in Freemasonry
Within the Degrees of Masonry there are found references to the plumb and plumb-line as instruments of particular significance to the Mason. One of the earliest and simplest instruments used in construction, the plumb and its line were an essential tool of the stone mason. As the level was to insure evenness of a surface, the plumb was to insure perpendicularity and right angles to that surface.

It's why it's depicted in art Sherlock, it is no longer used, but it is a masonic symbol.
What a coincidence that it is depicted with the Liberty lady(masonic icon)

Let's add to it, picture is called Liberty or death.

www.prices4antiques.com...
Powder Horn; Mcane (James), Liberty or Death, Masonic Icons, 1808.

The picture is a french masonic art.

You are not here for truth, you are here to prove your side. You want your opinion to be considered truth and wish for opposition to be considered heretical for daring to disagree. Network Dude started this thread and still maintains the idea that he doesn't know if the Statue is Masonic or not. You use misguided and false sources for your "Masonic" knowledge and that combined with your already biased religious views shows that you cannot logically or rationally debate this issue or that you wish to.

You can dream all you like, the statue is masonic from all points of view.

I also find it offensive that you think you have the authority to define one's relationship with their Creator, with their God. Who are you to do such a thing?! You have no authority to do such a thing and to say otherwise is blasphemy as you are not God nor do you know his opinion of me.

I don';t decide for anyone, did I tell you not to worship Satan ? that is your choice, so go worship Satan, no one decides for you, it's just people sayng you are Satanists, no one is telling you what to do, just telling you what you are, big difference.

reply to post by pepsi78

You really are ignorant. You completely missed the point of "just because we're Masons, doesn't make every action Masonic".

I don';t decide for anyone, did I tell you not to worship Satan ? that is your choice, so go worship Satan, no one decides for you, it's just people sayng you are Satanists, no one is telling you what to do, just telling you what you are, big difference.

Again, who are you to define my relationship with God? By telling me "who I am" you are defining the relationship, and its defamation.

Again, who are you to define my relationship with God? By telling me "who I am" you are defining the relationship, and its defamation.

You are forbiting members on this forum to comment on masonry ? If you don't like it just pick up your toys and go, you can't force anyone to have another view, people are free to think whatever they please about your fraternity.
It's called having a personal opinion. Just like I have a personal opinion. Again no one is telling you what to do, just what you are.

Staff should see this, you should be impeached

reply to post by pepsi78


If we could get back to you claiming the statue is indeed masonic... You claimed that the statue was given to the US masons by the GOF (Grand Orient of France) and you claimed that made it masonic along with the fact that you think any woman depicted in artwork must be the same women depicted with father time carefully unfolding the ringlets of her hair. I proved that indeed the statue was given to the PEOPLE of the United States, by the PEOPLE of France. Nowhere did you convince anyone but yourself and your cheerleader that you are correct.

And just to be clear, in the artwork you showed, that is Death, or the Grim reaper, Father time is an old dude with white hair and a white beard. He does have a scythe, but he isn't a skeleton in a black hooded robe. You need to watch more horror movies.

The statue is not masonic in nature, context. or representation. It's all in your twisted little mind.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by pepsi78

 

If we could get back to you claiming the statue is indeed masonic... You claimed that the statue was given to the US masons by the GOF (Grand Orient of France) and you claimed that made it masonic along with the fact that you think any woman depicted in artwork must be the same women depicted with father time carefully unfolding the ringlets of her hair. I proved that indeed the statue was given to the PEOPLE of the United States, by the PEOPLE of France. Nowhere did you convince anyone but yourself and your cheerleader that you are correct.

1
It was given by gof, it even shows how they give it back to gof in a ceremony, but let's get back to the key points.
The scluptor was a member of gof, the work of the statue was analised in the lodge, please don't make me go back and search for the information, it's in this thread.

2
She is designed and built by masons, she is founded from a masonic union that is made by masons, ran by masons, and installed in a masonic ceremony at the end.

3
The same figure is built by other masons(the other statue on the capitol building)

4
Liberty Lady appears in masonic art work before the making of any statue.

5
The weeping virgin is the same figure I explained that. Virginia is Venus,aditionaly it's also depicted in masonic art as her and the riper (father time) "the pic I have provided"

And just to be clear, in the artwork you showed, that is Death, or the Grim reaper, Father time is an old dude with white hair and a white beard. He does have a scythe, but he isn't a skeleton in a black hooded robe. You need to watch more horror movies.

Father time is the riper, also see the image I posted. Father time and the virgin, Liberty and the riper. same o same o

www.astrologycom.com...
Astrologically the planetary Lord of Aquarius and Capricorn, Saturn, a harvest god, is known as the grim reaper

The statue is not masonic in nature, context. or representation. It's all in your twisted little mind.

I don't see how it's not.

reply to post by pepsi78


then I would assume the United States is masonic, the Constitution is masonic, the Declaration of Independence is masonic, The first thirteen colonies are masonic, and basically everything you see, hear, or taste is masonic. You should really reconsider your position. Ever eat a Wendy's hamburger? If so, they you are masonic. Resistance is futile.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by pepsi78

 

then I would assume the United States is masonic, the Constitution is masonic, the Declaration of Independence is masonic, The first thirteen colonies are masonic, and basically everything you see, hear, or taste is masonic. You should really reconsider your position. Ever eat a Wendy's hamburger? If so, they you are masonic. Resistance is futile.

Were talking about the statue of liberty, I don't eat hamburgers, I'm a vegan, (refuse to be a beast)
Instead of coming up with this short reply, why don't you debunk my points
There are many factors pointing to the same thing as oposed to what you have stated there.
Predominant would be the word, defines an object.

Resistance is futile.

Personal sacrificies can be made to avoid that, take your pitiful collective to someone else, I'm not a freaking robot.

reply to post by pepsi78

I'm not forbidding anything. I am just wondering under what authority do you think you have to define the relationship of the Almighty with one of his flock? Have I questioned your faith? Have I made assertions that you are a satanist?

Staff should see this, you should be impeached

Impeached? You've done that enough already.

Impeach: To make an accusation against.

Although there is more to this word and also includes charging of improper conduct while in a public office. What public office do I hold?

Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by pepsi78

 

If we could get back to you claiming the statue is indeed masonic... You claimed that the statue was given to the US masons by the GOF (Grand Orient of France) and you claimed that made it masonic along with the fact that you think any woman depicted in artwork must be the same women depicted with father time carefully unfolding the ringlets of her hair. I proved that indeed the statue was given to the PEOPLE of the United States, by the PEOPLE of France. Nowhere did you convince anyone but yourself and your cheerleader that you are correct.

1
It was given by gof, it even shows how they give it back to gof in a ceremony, but let's get back to the key points.
The scluptor was a member of gof, the work of the statue was analised in the lodge, please don't make me go back and search for the information, it's in this thread.

NO, it was given by the people of France to the people of the US. If you want to see the plaque again, I will be happy to post it. Unless you have a copy of the minutes from the lodge meeting where it was "analised", I don't believe you. Proof on that.

2
She is designed and built by masons, she is founded from a masonic union that is made by masons, ran by masons, and installed in a masonic ceremony at the end.

Actually, you are partly correct. She was built by some men, some of whom happened to be masons, and the union that was formed to fund it was formed by two men who also happened to be masons, (same as the builders) but the ceremony to install, was for a cornerstone. I agree the cornerstone is masonic. No question. But that doesn't make any other part masonic by default.

3
The same figure is built by other masons(the other statue on the capitol building)

It's not the same figure. It's a woman, so yes, it's similar, but where is her torch, where is her book, where is her crown? Is any statue representing women automatically associated with Lady Liberty now?

4
Liberty Lady appears in masonic art work before the making of any statue.

No, she doesn't. Again, it's just a lady. What about all the art work showing the Virgin Mary? Is she supposed to represent the Statue of Liberty as well?

5
The weeping virgin is the same figure I explained that. Virginia is Venus,aditionaly it's also depicted in masonic art as her and the riper (father time) "the pic I have provided"

wrong on both counts. Not Liberty and not Father time. That is just your wild fantasy. No factual basis whatsoever.

And just to be clear, in the artwork you showed, that is Death, or the Grim reaper, Father time is an old dude with white hair and a white beard. He does have a scythe, but he isn't a skeleton in a black hooded robe. You need to watch more horror movies.

Father time is the riper, also see the image I posted. Father time and the virgin, Liberty and the riper. same o same o

The Grim Reaper or Death as he is called. is not Father time. Father Time is depicted as a living person, older man, with a white beard. He sometimes has a scythe.

www.astrologycom.com...
Astrologically the planetary Lord of Aquarius and Capricorn, Saturn, a harvest god, is known as the grim reaper

The statue is not masonic in nature, context. or representation. It's all in your twisted little mind.

I don't see how it's not.

edit on 25-6-2011 by pepsi78 because: (no reason given)

I don't see how it is.

But I think I understand your dilemma. Your brain is so starved for nutrition that is's manifesting crazy thoughts and images due to lack of steak. Just eat the burger.

NO, it was given by the people of France to the people of the US. If you want to see the plaque again, I will be happy to post it. Unless you have a copy of the minutes from the lodge meeting where it was "analised", I don't believe you. Proof on that.

It was given by Gof, there is a ceremony returning the statue, plus the scluptor him self was part of gof.

Actually, you are partly correct. She was built by some men, some of whom happened to be masons, and the union that was formed to fund it was formed by two men who also happened to be masons, (same as the builders) but the ceremony to install, was for a cornerstone. I agree the cornerstone is masonic. No question. But that doesn't make any other part masonic by default.

No she was built and designed by masons, rated and debated in the lodge by masons, the uninon was formed by masons, ran by masons. When there is predominance it's not "JUST SOME PEOPLE" Design, build, funding union, and ceremony.

It's not the same figure. It's a woman, so yes, it's similar, but where is her torch, where is her book, where is her crown? Is any statue representing women automatically associated with Lady Liberty now?

It's the same figure in a diferent posture, Ishtar, Liberas had many clothing , many postures.
She is declared official as Libertas, second I have showerd you she is Libertas.
By doing this, you deny the official declaration of the statue, and second her description has been documented, she is libertas.(same o same o)

No, she doesn't. Again, it's just a lady. What about all the art work showing the Virgin Mary? Is she supposed to represent the Statue of Liberty as well?

No it's liberty lady, you should see the red liberty cap she is holding in her hand, see, you are wrong.
See different postures same figure, just like freedom lady(same figure Liberas)
Second of all the picture is called Liberty or death. You are out of luck here also.


Here she is with the LIBERTY cap in her hand along with father time.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/34b3d04407a7.jpg[/atsimg]

wrong on both counts. Not Liberty and not Father time. That is just your wild fantasy. No factual basis whatsoever.

Review my posts.

And just to be clear, in the artwork you showed, that is Death, or the Grim reaper, Father time is an old dude with white hair and a white beard. He does have a scythe, but he isn't a skeleton in a black hooded robe. You need to watch more horror movies.

Review what I have posted, father time is the riper.

An aditional source for you where the notion of the riper came from.

oxford-astrologer.blogspot.com...
Traditionally, Saturn was often pictured as the Grim Reaper, Death itself harvesting the souls of the living. Saturn was the god of the harvest, symbolic of the saying: "You reap what you sow."Bin Laden's death is the result of 9/11. He's reaping the death he sowed. It took a long time coming - very Saturnian - but here it is at last.

Another source.

www.askdeb.com...
Saturn was the Roman god of time. He was the son of Uranus and the father of Jupiter, Neptune, and Pluto. Saturn ruled the Roman gods before Jupiter. His weapon that he is commonly depicted holding is a scythe, which is where we get the scythe image for the grim reaper. Saturn was even known as Old Father Time.

The statue is not masonic in nature, context. or representation. It's all in your twisted little mind.

I don't see how it's not.

She is masonic from all points of view.

reply to post by pepsi78


That's not father time. You do know that there is a difference between the grim reaper ( death personified ) and father time ( personification of time) ?

And there is your problem pepsi.


Saturn being Latin for Father Time, has other names in different periods:
www.theoi.com...

Ancient Greece depicts Death as a bearded and winged man (no scythe) :
en.wikipedia.org...


Specifically in ancient Greece as the god of death (nonviolent) Thanatos:
en.wikipedia.org...
www.theoi.com...

Male being death while female being life. However, sometimes in different cultures, death is female.

It wasn't until the 15th century death was depicted as skull and bones with a scythe.
en.wikipedia.org...

That's not father time. You do know that there is a difference between the grim reaper ( death personified ) and father time ( personification of time) ?

It's where it comes from, what do you mean it's not ?

Saturn being Latin for Father Time, has other names in different periods:
www.theoi.com...

I know that father time is kronos, the same agricultural deity. How does that change things ?

Ancient Greece depicts Death as a bearded and winged man (no scythe) :
en.wikipedia.org...

We are talking about the grim reaper and where it came from, it is not depicted with a sicle because it was not yet the grim reaper, we are talking about the grim reaper, and not something else.

To add to your quoting father time has bear and wings, it's really the same persona.
Early depiction of death is really the same thing from Saturn, until it became "the grim reaper" with the sicle. They added a sicle to fully depict him. Here he is, it's really the same person, this is your description of bearded and winged man.



After that he was called the grim reaper, full depiction of father time, so they added the sicle.
Here let me show you.

en.wikipedia.org...
Father Time is usually depicted as an elderly bearded man, somewhat worse for wear, dressed in a robe, carrying a scythe and an hourglass or other timekeeping device (which represents time's constant one-way movement, and more generally and abstractly, entropy). This image derives from several sources, including the Grim Reaper and Chronos, the Greek god Lord of time in Greek mythology.

www.urbandictionary.com...
The personification of Time and the more friendly version of the Grim Reaper. Typically pictured as an old man with a white beard doning a cloak and oft times carrying a scythe and hourglass. In ancient times he was known as Chronus or Saturn.

To answer your questions, the grim reaper came from father time, chronos, saturn, it is also why it has a sicle.
The grim reaper is based on the same agricultural and time notion, because it sprang from father time.
You were addresing other charecters anyway and not the grim reaper, predating the grim reaper witch come from the same place anyway.



It's simple. Father time =grim reaper.
Your avatar makes my point, father time and her, liberty gal.

Male being death while female being life. However, sometimes in different cultures, death is female.

Well if that is you opinion then ok. I'm just telling you to research a bit more and not be so confident of what you state there.

Just because one male god ate his babies and got personificated with death does not mean it makes the rules on who is who. That is just Saturn. The begining is the light and it ends with the omega.

Originally posted by pepsi78
No it's liberty lady, you should see the red liberty cap she is holding in her hand, see, you are wrong.
See different postures same figure, just like freedom lady(same figure Liberas)
Second of all the picture is called Liberty or death. You are out of luck here also.


Here she is with the LIBERTY cap in her hand along with father time.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/34b3d04407a7.jpg[/atsimg]

NOPE. But thanks for proving my point for me. I don't know if I could have done a better job.
Liberty or Death. Not Liberty or Father Time.

how can you say it's not?

Admit it sport. You make this up as you go along and hope your cheerleader will follow your posts.
Give him fresh pom poms and a cute skirt.

NOPE. But thanks for proving my point for me. I don't know if I could have done a better job.
Liberty or Death. Not Liberty or Father Time.

how can you say it's not?

Father time is the grim reaper, all I see in that picture is the grim reaper and lady liberty.

Admit it sport. You make this up as you go along and hope your cheerleader will follow your posts.
Give him fresh pom poms and a cute skirt.

It is obvius she is liberty lady with the liberty cap. As for father time and grim reaper we have been over this.

Originally posted by pepsi78

NOPE. But thanks for proving my point for me. I don't know if I could have done a better job.
Liberty or Death. Not Liberty or Father Time.

how can you say it's not?

Father time is the grim reaper, all I see in that picture is the grim reaper and lady liberty.

Then why is the picture titles Liberty or Death and not Liberty or Father time?
You seriously cannot keep this up. You make this stuff up, throw everything you have against the wall, and hope some little turd you produced will stick. Not this time lettuce muncher.

Admit it sport. You make this up as you go along and hope your cheerleader will follow your posts.
Give him fresh pom poms and a cute skirt.

It is obvius she is liberty lady with the liberty cap. As for father time and grim reaper we have been over this.

We have been over this. You were wrong then and you are still wrong now. Repetition does not make it true, just irritating.

NOPE. But thanks for proving my point for me. I don't know if I could have done a better job.
Liberty or Death. Not Liberty or Father Time.

how can you say it's not?

It is obvius the name Liberty is depicting the Liberty lady, with her holding the liberty cap in her hand.

About death, it is the grim reaper, father time with a sicle. Can't you see who is in the picture ? It is the grim reaper.

We have been over this. You were wrong then and you are still wrong now. Repetition does not make it true, just irritating.

How can I be wrong when I provided facts, sources. I don't see how.


I do not like repeating my self, I only do it when someone else repeats the same thing.
You have not come with any new arguments, you repeat them so it's why I repeat them as a reminder to you that you are wrong.

Originally posted by pepsi78
About death, it is the grim reaper, father time with a sicle. Can't you see who is in the picture ? It is the grim reaper.

your words. read them, study them, understand them, then accept them. Anyone depicted with a scythe is not father time. Carl Childers wasn't father time. Death, is not father time, only father time is father time. Go back to school and pay attention this time. And have a steak. it will stimulate the mind.

Originally posted by pepsi78

NO, it was given by the people of France to the people of the US. If you want to see the plaque again, I will be happy to post it. Unless you have a copy of the minutes from the lodge meeting where it was "analised", I don't believe you. Proof on that.

It was given by Gof, there is a ceremony returning the statue, plus the scluptor him self was part of gof.

and just to be crystal clear, the event you are referring to was when a picture of lady liberty was presented to the Grand Orient of France by US masons as a gift. It was symbolic. Study that moment in history so you don't embarrass yourself further.