The Growth of Atheism and What it Means for Our Future

Originally posted by SaturnFXbecause we are more than the parts and the memories...there is a identity that exists outside of it all..

What makes you think this?

The transporter could never happen. I like Star Trek becasue it talks about Socialism and atheism, while in a world of things that could not nor should not occur.

reply to post by timepolarity

Originally posted by timepolarity

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Atheism is a lack of belief in gods, not a belief in a lack.

...

Atheism is not a faith, it is an absence of faith. I have no faith in deities. I do not believe in deities. I cannot make with epistemological certainty the claim that no deity exists, though I can make fairly reasonable claims about specific instances.

So you say: I believe there is no God.
I say: I believe there is a God.

I just listed off a string of expletives out loud about how silly this is. I clearly said that this is not what my claim is! I said "I do not believe in any god" I've even repeatedly and openly stated that "I believe there is no god" is not my position!

They are both beliefs, chosen by the believer based on the evidence presented.  To say you simply choose not to have any beliefs is merely a semantic argument, and doesn't change the nature of your position.  You believe one thing to be true, I believe another.

Except that you're not addressing my claim here, so this is really pointless. I do not claim to know, I merely do not assert as existing that which has not been demonstrated.

If you truly lacked ANY belief, then you wouldn't have an argument against Christianity, because you would believe neither that it was true nor false.

I feel that certain aspects of Christianity are false on their own accord. I don't have any belief on matters where the question is unassailable...

You're just...why are so many people fractally wrong here? I can zoom in on any bit of an argument and it's just as wrong as the argument as a whole!

reply to post by ShakaDoodle


Wow, that''s not offensive at all.

Hey, newsflash: I'm reasonable! I can be reasoned with. If you were to provide me with ample evidence and reasonable connection of that evidence to your deity, I would totally accept its existence.

reply to post by nicolee123nd


old religion out. new religion in. that will be a good market.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
reply to post by gentledissident

 

Yeah, I should have qualified my statement with an: I don't know if I actually believe that morality and atheism do go hand in hand. However, its at least an interesting thought and would be nice to see if we could somehow prove one way or the other.

Google: Secular countrys and crime rates.

Your answer awaits..with suprising results no doubt.

Interesting. However, these are all wealthier countries that don't have the same issues with poverty, drugs, and racism as we do in the US. What portions of criminals in the US were actively following and practicing a religion at the time of committing the crimes?

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


Reductive reasoning? Black is actually the name we give to a relative lack of color. We cannot produce it properly chemically, so what we refer to as 'black' is as close as we can get.

Seriously, really bad argument to use when there's a film major atheist in the thread who is quite obsessed with aesthetics.

Originally posted by acmpnsfal
Are you suggesting that country 2 would have more donations at the lower income levels because it would be christian? I know a lot of low income christians personally that barely pay their tithes much less donate to a charity.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

Sorry, did not see that. And yes i am suggesting that.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul If you were to provide me with ample evidence and reasonable connection of that evidence to your deity, I would totally accept its existence.

I think I speak for most atheists when I say, we won't deny proof of a God. We just haven't been given any.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by kallisti36
Atheism taken to it's logical conclusion is nihilism. If there is no God, no universal spirit, or individual soul then there is no point, no plot, and no reason.

Although it was a really nice post, thought provoking, I disagree with the premise.

Atheism leads to nihilism...sure, a understanding of the pointlessness of existance, however, that doesn't then immediately turn it into destructive or obscure behavioral patterns by nature.

Consider a actual real world pointless example.

Bowling...yep, bowling.
Totally pointless. you take a ball, toss it at some pins, they fall down, a machine picks them back up, you grab another ball, and whip it at the pins, etc etc etc
no point beyond "hit the pins". This doesn't prepare you for a greater life, this doesn't allow you to understand your soul better, or somehow make you a better person.
Some minor points...a good score, perhaps an award over time, but otherwise, it is absolutely pointless.

By the philosophy of nihilism (all things pointless turns to destruction and/or are abandoned) bowling shouldn't exist (along with a ton of other pointless things we enjoy doing)...yet we do them, and do it happily.

Life can be just like bowling. Pointless actions, however done happily and enjoying the round as it were. the hippies you point out had an issue. they went from a society mostly innundated with fanatical religious roots, they explored this new philosophy of differences and pointlessness and without reference, explored many things...some being various human centric systems of beliefs (asian exotic religions and cults), anger, etc...it was a birth of a new mindset, and it has hiccups because its new and without clearcut examples and references.

We have matured a bit since then, refined the understanding, and are able to put perspective on it. Western society is past the suicidally depressed or insane aspects that come from a new idea...its not accepted, and in some areas, preferred in order to have a fulfilling life.

Many atheists of today have stopped asking "what is the point of life", and instead are asking the better question, "what point do I want to make with my life".

I like the bowling analogy, it furthers my point, because it is a rejection of nihilism. It's only pointless when you take away the subjective esoteric nature of "the game". Nihilism takes the subjective esoteric nature out of everything: life, love, and God. Life is chemical reactions and the will to survival and power, love is chemical reactions to make us reproduce, and God is a bearded man in the sky that mankind imagined because death was scary and they were sick of looking at dirt. The Judeo-Christian concept of God is most certainly not a bearded man in the sky, which is why the Jews and Early (and to this day Eastern) Christians NEVER depicted the Father. To materialize the subjective is to dissect it and kill it which is the end result of Atheist and ultimately Nihilist thought if you carry the implications to their end. It goes like this:
1. There is no God
2. Matter has always existed
3.Our existence is material observation of the material
4. Anything subjective is a result of our material imaginations (emotions, love, sentiment)
5. There is no "thing" in of itself
6. Silence and death

Do we find meaning in matter or that which is subjective (or immaterial)? God is all things immaterial and created the material to hold the immaterial and give it shape. Since the fall there has been a great separation between divine and man. The word of God took on flesh to redeem matter and to keep our immaterial souls until the apocalypse, the resurrection, and the apocatastasis: the redemption of matter and the end of the distinction between subject and object. This is the Faith of the Fathers.

I dont see any problem if someone doesn't believe in God.

As long as they still believe in GOOD, Its all dandy.

Originally posted by Ricola
I dont see any problem if someone doesn't believe in God.

As long as they still believe in GOOD, Its all dandy.

Show them what is good with tangible evidence that establishes it as Good and that's when they'll believe in it.

Sorry double post somehow

Originally posted by kallisti36 Do we find meaning in matter or that which is subjective (or immaterial)? God is all things immaterial and created the material to hold the immaterial and give it shape. Since the fall there has been a great separation between divine and man. The word of God took on flesh to redeem matter and to keep our immaterial souls until the apocalypse, the resurrection, and the apocatastasis: the redemption of matter and the end of the distinction between subject and object. This is the Faith of the Fathers.

Here is more of making wild assertions to cover up the truth. Yea, it was kerosene.

reply to post by Ryanp5555


Thank you for your honest and heart felt answer. In turn - I will give you mine.

I still considered myself a believer up until about 5 years ago. I am 65.

I had paranormal experiences as a kid - - so I believed strongly in something beyond what I could touch and see. In one OBE a tall man in a long white robe and beard came to me. He told me it was confusing me living in two worlds (the spirit world and the physical world). He grounded me from entering that world again for a long time. But never lost that memory.

My grandmother tried to raise me Catholic. I remember sitting in church as a 5 year old - - looked at her and said: "Does God need all this?" (the ornateness - the rituals - etc). I was envisioning sitting with a group of people outside under a tree listening to Jesus speak to us. Does God really need more then that?

My mom believed everyone has to find their own path. I got up on Sunday's and went to church - - with whoever was willing to take me. Sometimes my mom - gramma - or neighbors. I was searching for my path - - my God truth.

I had many different church/congregation experiences. As an adult I was Mormon for 5 years. Really enjoyed that. If there was an organization run like that - - minus the religion I'd go.

So I read a lot - - and searched beliefs - - etc. You know there also seminary students that search for the truth and end up Atheist - - not necessarily by what they find - - but by what they don't find.

Anyway - - wrapping up 60+ years in one post - - can't cover every thing. It is not that I stopped believing - - its that I found what I do believe.

I believe everything is energy. Nothing really exists in the way we know it - - - but is a projection or creation of thought energy.

Some people will try to label this as a God belief. But it is my belief and I do not label it as a God belief.

I see it as science. Like a Petri dish. Certain substances come together and reactionary developments happen.

Atheist means lack of belief in a Deity. That would be me. I definitely do not believe in a Deity.

There is what is called "Hard Atheist" - they would be those that require factual proof and probably do not believe in an after life.

I do believe along the lines of the Terra Papers - - that "off planet beings" have been on this planet. They may even have had something to do with human development. But still they came from the same Petri dish.

I suppose some would call me a Spiritual Atheist - - - but that really depends on the definition of what a Spirit is.

I can't deny the paranormal (for lack of a better word) experiences I've had. I suppose it could just be brain signals creating an illusion. I don't know.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by polit
There is one thing I know. Most of the atheists/ people who identify as such are some of the most condescending, obnoxious and arrogant people when it comes to dealing with the "poor deluded deists." It seems like they think the only way they can "beat" the Christians is by jumping even further down people's throats.

Just the other day I was chilling on the beach with a bunch of friends and these two little girls came up, like under 10 years old. They asked if any of our group wanted a free bible, one of the religious girls said yes, but some of the others heard what was going on and started getting all angry and talking some seriously rude b/s. I was offended on the religious people's behalf.

Why are parents sending -10 year old girls out on a beach to push their religious belief? That is all kinds of wrong.

I was standing on the corner next to a church. Now mind you I'm definitely senior. A bunch of teenagers were standing around saying "F" this and "F" that - - then they walked into the church.

Bad and rude behavior is bad and rude behavior - - - it is not "Atheist" behavior.

I don't know their motivations, maybe they are innocent little kids who thinks it is great fun to teach people about something they are passionate about. Don't know? Could also be that this was the first time in the past month they were allowed out of their prayer cage and if they don't get at least two more heathens converted by the end of the day they are going to have to go back in for another month with only the body and blood of christ to sustain them.

And why are you arguing with me? What is your point? They did it, so we can do it too. I never said it was strictly the atheists being rude. I guess in my typing of the above post I did not include my introductory point which was "_within the past few years_ it seems that I have seen more and more atheists come out on the offensive, usually in an extremely rude and condescending manner, in what I attribute to be an effort to combat their perception of the growing influence of Christians on society in the US - mainly after the semi-recent evolution/ creation being taught in schools business."

I am not religious in any way, but the extremely vitrolic and immature attacks on religion and religious people that I have seen lately make me not want to identify with atheism at all. I don't want to be lumped in with those assholes, that's for sure!

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


I should have specified that I was speaking of materialist atheism that is if you are a darwinist (and most atheists are) without any pantheist leanings.

We are in a society of growing moral relativism. This is a part of nihilism that many are ensnared in.

Enough with the religious wars straw men and rhetoric. I will accept claims of misogyny and a weak stance on slavery directed at Christianity, but to say it advocates violence is wrong.

reply to post by gentledissident


How was your materialist outlook on things any less of a wild assertion?

Originally posted by Annee
reply to post by Ryanp5555

 

Thank you for your honest and heart felt answer. In turn - I will give you mine.

I still considered myself a believer up until about 5 years ago. I am 65.

I had paranormal experiences as a kid - - so I believed strongly in something beyond what I could touch and see. In one OBE a tall man in a long white robe and beard came to me. He told me it was confusing me living in two worlds (the spirit world and the physical world). He grounded me from entering that world again for a long time. But never lost that memory.

My grandmother tried to raise me Catholic. I remember sitting in church as a 5 year old - - looked at her and said: "Does God need all this?" (the ornateness - the rituals - etc). I was envisioning sitting with a group of people outside under a tree listening to Jesus speak to us. Does God really need more then that?

My mom believed everyone has to find their own path. I got up on Sunday's and went to church - - with whoever was willing to take me. Sometimes my mom - gramma - or neighbors. I was searching for my path - - my God truth.

I had many different church/congregation experiences. As an adult I was Mormon for 5 years. Really enjoyed that. If there was an organization run like that - - minus the religion I'd go.

So I read a lot - - and searched beliefs - - etc. You know there also seminary students that search for the truth and end up Atheist - - not necessarily by what they find - - but by what they don't find.

Anyway - - wrapping up 60+ years in one post - - can't cover every thing. It is not that I stopped believing - - its that I found what I do believe.

I believe everything is energy. Nothing really exists in the way we know it - - - but is a projection or creation of thought energy.

Some people will try to label this as a God belief. But it is my belief and I do not label it as a God belief.

I see it as science. Like a Petri dish. Certain substances come together and reactionary developments happen.

Atheist means lack of belief in a Deity. That would be me. I definitely do not believe in a Deity.

There is what is called "Hard Atheist" - they would be those that require factual proof and probably do not believe in an after life.

I do believe along the lines of the Terra Papers - - that "off planet beings" have been on this planet. They may even have had something to do with human development. But still they came from the same Petri dish.

I suppose some would call me a Spiritual Atheist - - - but that really depends on the definition of what a Spirit is.

I can't deny the paranormal (for lack of a better word) experiences I've had. I suppose it could just be brain signals creating an illusion. I don't know.

Interesting indeed. I too have had paranormal experiences. I nearly drownt when I was a kid. My face had turned bluish gray. I was in the ER for a bit afterwards. Experiences that I've had that I consider paranormal also helped shaped my beliefs. I whole heartedly agree that the paranormal, once you experience it, makes it really hard to say that there isn't some sort of something that happens to humans after death. Whether it be that they are converted back into energy or there is a heaven or whatever.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


I just read your response. Empathy is a good origin of value. You value yourself, so you value others. So, where does empathy come from? Does everyone have empathy? If you don't value yourself, can you value others?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by kallisti36

 

The lack of a deity provides us with the opportunity to create meaning, instead of being forced into a role that we didn't choose. We have our own reasons for living. Mine? Well, those are personal. Or living is its own reward, there's that too.

Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

You can't alter reality, you can't create anything by the law of thermodynamics. It reminds me of the joke about the scientist who told God he could make a better world than him, God said, "Go ahead start" and the scientist picked up a handful of dirt and God said, "Hey! Get your own dirt". Let's also forget that you proved that you at least adhere to soft nihilism when you claimed that "we can create meaning". To create is to make where there was not something before, so you posit that there is no meaning unless you make it. Who is delusional now?