Comfort or conflict: Earlier Down syndrome test

reply to post by Adamanteus


I'm strictly anit-abortion. Until the law changes though, I'll have to settle for living in a society that deems it appropriate.
When a person gets an abortion, performs an abortion, or endorses an abortion, the ultimate responsibility will lie with them. Then again, I believe in a soul. So there ya go.

reply to post by beezzer

When my fiancée was pregnant with our now 2 1/2yr old son she had some preliminary tests done and got sent for more tests. These involved a high def ultrasound and the results were that she had a 1 in 4 chance of having an at risk birth. They had told us about Down Syndrome and Velo-Cardio-Facial Syndrome as well as others.

I grew up in a broken home and lived with my maternal grandparents most of my childhood. During this time I was around my Uncle Frank who had down syndrome and to me was like any other. He was well loved in town and had a great heart and because of him I look at people so much differently than most.

When he was born the doctor said he would be lucky to live a couple years as he also had a congenital heart. My Grandmother and her mother would give him some native american thing along with a shot of whiskey everyday (why the whiskey I don't know). He died at the age of 39 from the onset of cancer through his whole body but this man would smile everyday no matter how much he was hurting.

Needless to say neither of us gave it a second thought about having our son and even if we knew he would of had something wrong we still would of given him a fighting chance to live!

reply to post by IncognitoGhostman


Beautiful. I have such a strong protective connection over my sister. I am a better person for knowing her.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Adamanteus

 

I'm strictly anit-abortion. Until the law changes though, I'll have to settle for living in a society that deems it appropriate.
When a person gets an abortion, performs an abortion, or endorses an abortion, the ultimate responsibility will lie with them. Then again, I believe in a soul. So there ya go.

Then you must also realize that a soul never dies, and the body is simply a shell. And the soul will do what the soul wants to do (if you believe in a soul) so it will find another way of experiencing this existence.

Just a thought.

reply to post by IncognitoGhostman


Beautiful story. Thanks for sharing.

We don't know when or how lives will be touched by our children. It could happen in a day, a week, a decade.

To take that potential joy away from us and others is something that will hurt the human condition.

Originally posted by seeker11

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Adamanteus

 

I'm strictly anit-abortion. Until the law changes though, I'll have to settle for living in a society that deems it appropriate.
When a person gets an abortion, performs an abortion, or endorses an abortion, the ultimate responsibility will lie with them. Then again, I believe in a soul. So there ya go.

Then you must also realize that a soul never dies, and the body is simply a shell. And the soul will do what the soul wants to do (if you believe in a soul) so it will find another way of experiencing this existence.

Just a thought.

True. But are humans worthy of determining the souls path? Is society?

reply to post by seeker11


As does my fiancee over her sister who has VFCS and is another reason we both didn't care what the tests said. We just knew that we were going to get some nice ultra sound pics of him.

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by seeker11

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Adamanteus

 

I'm strictly anit-abortion. Until the law changes though, I'll have to settle for living in a society that deems it appropriate.
When a person gets an abortion, performs an abortion, or endorses an abortion, the ultimate responsibility will lie with them. Then again, I believe in a soul. So there ya go.

Then you must also realize that a soul never dies, and the body is simply a shell. And the soul will do what the soul wants to do (if you believe in a soul) so it will find another way of experiencing this existence.

Just a thought.

True. But are humans worthy of determining the souls path? Is society?

Is my soul my own? Or somebody elses? Does a body determine the souls ultimate path? Would I have been upset if my mother had aborted me? Perhaps I would not even know and would have just taken the next closest path available. I do not think this life is some product of a fairy tale golden age where to not live it would be depriving a 'soul' of greatness, but that's not to say I do not think it could be amazing as well. The bottom line is I just don't know. I don't. One day I'm hoping it will all make sense, but until then I will not judge a person or a mother for making the choice she feels is best. What if a mother knows she does not have the capacity to raise a child like that let a lone any child at all? Should she still be forced to do this? Knowing that she will be a bad mother and cause even more harm to the already disadvantaged child in the long run? I don't know the answers, I just know that the questions are there.

Originally posted by IncognitoGhostman
reply to post by seeker11

 

As does my fiancee over her sister who has VFCS and is another reason we both didn't care what the tests said. We just knew that we were going to get some nice ultra sound pics of him.

Yes I went in for the ultrasound (amazing wonderful experience!!) but chose not to do the amnio. Besides needles...especially that sort of invasive needle gives me the chills.

reply to post by seeker11


My stance on abortion has not waivered. But my condemnation of those that support it has. I hav no right to judge others that, in my mind, take a life. That judgement will be reserved for a higher authority.

And if there isn't a higher authority, then its a fait accompli.

Originally posted by seeker11

Originally posted by IncognitoGhostman
reply to post by seeker11

 

As does my fiancee over her sister who has VFCS and is another reason we both didn't care what the tests said. We just knew that we were going to get some nice ultra sound pics of him.

Yes I went in for the ultrasound (amazing wonderful experience!!) but chose not to do the amnio. Besides needles...especially that sort of invasive needle gives me the chills.

We didn't get the amnio done as well. Yes the ultrasound from they did produced some amazing pictures.

I know that I am a much better person because of my uncle as well and hate to think of how I would be without having been touched by him.

On a side note he was a lot smarter than people think or he would let on to most. I swear he could read as he loved cars and always had a hot rod magazine with him. He would go through these magazines and show you cars in there and name off all the specs on the engines and what-not about the cars.

I truly believe that himself and others like him were put on this earth to teach people that life is simple. All you need to do is love and show compassion and that all the material things don;t matter at all.

reply to post by beezzer

True. But are humans worthy of determining the souls path? Is society?

Are Humans worthy? by the very act of a parent teaching a child what "they" think is right is molding their soul.

Is society? Worthy? NO! but society by it's very definition does determine the path ones soul takes because in order to be a member of society You (and Your soul) are forced to take the path that society deems is correct or else be evicted from said society (imprisoned/put to death)

Originally posted by Adamanteus
reply to post by beezzer

 

True. But are humans worthy of determining the souls path? Is society?

Are Humans worthy? by the very act of a parent teaching a child what "they" think is right is molding their soul.

Is society? Worthy? NO! but society by it's very definition does determine the path ones soul takes because in order to be a member of society You (and Your soul) are forced to take the path that society deems is correct or else be evicted from said society (imprisoned/put to death)

My point. And society is right, how much of the time? 400 years ago, society told us to burn witches, the earth was flat. Now? Society tells us that abortion is okay. Who's to say that it won't change a decade from now?

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by beezzer

 

And im sure youd happily trade lives with that babie that just suffocated alive trying to take its first breath because of a genetic deformity of a lung.

It nice to think up wild and rediculous ways in which darth vader could make everyone be born with a shorter right leg, but in the end stuff like this gives a human conciousness that grows up in our society a functional and healthy body. Go make yourself retarded and see how much better that is than your normal brain where you could feed and clothe yourself.

So you would deny that it is better to have loved and lost, than to never have loved at all?
My Sister in law knew her baby would be born with downs and greatfully welcomed her into this world with open arms.
She lived for a little over 8 months before carelessness and 13 cross contamination infections on the part of UCDavis killed her.
Who is to say what could have happened had she have lived?

reply to post by beezzer


It very well may change in 10 years but the only recourse we have now is to go with what society deems acceptable or else remove ourselves from society.

I shall tell you a story about my "Friends".

While having an ultrasound, the operator noticed an certain anomaly. Being over 35yo my "Friend" was advised to have an Amnio, it was her choice, but strongly advised.
The amnio had shown that the growing baby, a girl, was found to be Trisomy 21 (Downs Syndrome), with possible complications of congenital heart disease etc.
The Medical Staff were very empathizing of the gravity of the situation, and gave my "Friends" the various scenarios that could be played out, with one of the options being a termination at 24 weeks (i think). But my "Friends" were NOT forced into a decision, and were allowed to discuss the pros and cons with various "Experts", and would be supported with any decision that was made. It was told to them that the child would "Possibly" need heart surgery soon after birth. That there were various states of Downs etc etc.
My "Friends" made the decision to terminate.
So the baby was induced, born naturally one Friday afternoon, the midwife was crying, the Mother was crying, the Father was crying, everyone was crying...the still alive little girl, who looked like a normal baby...(my "friends" said), was held by those present for a few minutes each.....with the expected sorrys and sadness and guilt and loss that one would feel at this time. She was named, yes she had a birth certificate, and she was taken away, where she stopped breathing after a few minutes.
Subsequent examination had show that she indeed had a heart condition, plus some additional problems, but her future life, will never be known.
My "Friends" gave their little girl a private funeral, in a Childs cemetery with 100s of others, with a memorial brass plaque, along with the 100s of others.
Almost 12 mths after this sad occasion, my "Friends" gave birth to 2 healthy, albeit premature twins. One boy @ 3lb and one girl @ 2.5lb. And the saga of Premi Bubs and the 3 months in Intensive Neonatal care and the many other follow ups ensued .
That was 14 years ago.......
My "Friends" now have two healthy normal teenagers, a 6' boy and a midsize girl, who are at junior High School, and starting their long journey into adulthood.
But,.... my "Friends" have made there children, well aware that they had an Older Sister, who died at birth...........and whos grave and plaque they occasionally attend, to drop some flowers off, wash the dirt off and to say hello, I love you.
Shall my "Friends" ever tell there twins the absolute truth?? The truth that if their older sister was'nt "let go" by their parents. That they would, probably, have never been born? What a cunundrum to be in, one that cannot be dwelt of too often, without fear of loosing one's mind with guilt.
The saga of life is a strange one, fate comes in many forms. One day we can be here, one day not.
You just live your life, the best you can ............So say my "Friends".

reply to post by beezzer


Although Eugenics is looked down upon by most, to certain extent...Nature also plays a part in this. Consider that humans in the past did not have the same technology or medical advances that we do now. Not everyone had the same opportunities to live a full life and reproduce. It could be that they were predisposed to certain conditions or ailments. Nature weeds out the weak. So it's not really anything 'evil' if a parent does not want to have a child that is predisposed to some genetic disorder.

IMHO...however...as conscious and sentient beings we should attempt to bring about compassion for all living things.
I'd say most humans are able to intelligenly assess whether they have the means to bring a child to the world or not...So far...I see most people do not even think about it. They act on impulse and breed recklessly...

reply to post by gort51


Another beautiful, yet sad story.
Thank you for sharing it.

Originally posted by laiguana

IMHO...however...as conscious and sentient beings we should attempt to bring about compassion for all living things.
I'd say most humans are able to intelligenly assess whether they have the means to bring a child to the world or not...So far...I see most people do not even think about it. They act on impulse and breed recklessly...

Don't we, as conscious and sentient beings, also have the responsibility to encourage life when we can?

there are very many shades of grey around this topic. personally, i don't think the parents have the right to end their unborn child's life. before a woman misses her first period, the baby already has its own heart and closed circulatory system with a blood type that is different from the mother. unborn children are, by all accounts, a separate person.

but on the other side of things...this world is fallen, and it is horrible that people are born into damaged shells. "to keep or kill your child?" that is a question that should never have to be asked. if i had to choose between death at birth, or down syndrome for life, i would choose death. but that is my opinion, and one i wouldn't be able to convey at the time.

keep your children so they can decide for themselves.