Rapture: Left Behind

First of all, I'm not at expert at any of this as you can probably tell. I'm just trying to make sense of it. I'm looking for people who are willing to answer a few questions. Both Rapture believers and non believers are welcome to answer.

Lets start with the definition of Rapture:

The Rapture is a reference to the being caught up referred to in the Biblical passage 1 Thess 4:17 when in the End Times the Christians will be gathered together in the air to meet Christ.

The primary passage used to support the idea of the Rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, in which Paul cites "the word of the Lord" about the return of Jesus to gather his saints. ... and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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There have been numerous predictions in the past:

1844 - William Miller predicted Christ would return between March 21, 1843 and March 21, 1844, then revised his prediction, claiming to have miscalculated Scripture, to October 22, 1844. The realization that the predictions were incorrect resulted in a Great Disappointment. Miller's theology gave rise to the Advent movement. The Baha'is believe that Christ did return as Miller predicted in 1844, with the advent of The Báb, and numerous Miller-like prophetic predictions from many religions are given in William Sears book, Thief in The Night.

1914, 1918, 1925, 1942 - Dates set for the end by the Jehovah's Witnesses

1981 - Chuck Smith predicted that Jesus would probably return by 1981.

1988 - Publication of 88 Reasons why the Rapture is in 1988, by Edgar C. Whisenant.

1989 - Publication of The final shout: Rapture report 1989, by Edgar Whisenant. More predictions by this author appeared for 1992, 1995, and other years.

1992 - Korean group "Mission for the Coming Days" predicted October 28, 1992 as the date for the rapture.

1993 - Seven years before the year 2000. The rapture would have to start to allow for seven years of the Tribulation before the Return in 2000. Multiple predictions.

1994 - Pastor John Hinkle of Christ Church in Los Angeles predicted June 9, 1994. Radio evangelist Harold Camping predicted September 6, 1994.

2011 - Harold Camping's revised prediction has May 21, 2011 as the date of the rapture.

2060 - Sir Isaac Newton proposed, based upon his calculations using figures from the book of Daniel, that the Apocalypse could happen no earlier than 2060.

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Of course, I'm interested in the prediction for this Saturday, as told by Harold Camping (Who also predicted the Rapture to happen in 1994)

He talks about the creation, Noah and other important biblical events and says he's found a way to accurately predict the Rapture and the End of Times (which, according to him, is going to be in October of this year, five months after the Rapture) using a mathematical formula of some sort. I'm not getting into that because after reading through it several times, I still can't understand how he makes the connections, maybe someone here can simplify it for me but until then I'll just skip the formula.

The Holy Bible gives several additional astounding proofs that May 21, 2011 is very accurate as the time for the Day of Judgment.

There's people who believe him and have been putting up signs and billboards to let everyone know what's going to happen:

To get the word out, they're using billboards and bus stop benches, traveling caravans of RVs and volunteers passing out pamphlets on street corners. Cities from Bridgeport, Conn. to Little Rock, Ark., now have billboards with the ominous message, and mission groups are traveling in countries from Latin America to Africa to spread the news outside the U.S.

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A man named Robert Fitzpatrick spent $140.000 dollars on an ad campaign and insists Mr. Camping has the date right.
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Now, what made me create this thread was reading what a woman named Allison Warden said (she is one of the people responsible of spreading the word):

If May 21 passes and I'm still here, that means I wasn't saved. Does that mean God's word is inaccurate or untrue? Not at all

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She thinks that if nothing happens for her on Saturday, it means she wasn't saved. Not that Mr. Camping was wrong about his prediction, not that God was wrong or that she herself was the one who got it wrong by believing a man who claims he can decipher God's "code" in the Bible.

I would like to hear your opinions and answers to these questions, if you have a minute to post a reply.

If you are one of the people who believes Mr, Camping:
-What makes you so sure he's right?
-What would you do or say if nothing happens? Would you consider yourself one of the people left behind?
-Would you believe another prediction, by him or another person, in the future? Why or why not?

To the people who don't believe the rapture will happen this Saturday:
-What do you think makes people believe these types of predictions and spend all their money or sell their houses and quit their jobs?
-What kind of proof would you need to believe an End of the World prediction?
-If the Rapture does occur, what would you say or do?

Thanks for reading and for taking a minute to reply.

yeah yeah, but it says on the ad

"The Bible guarantees it" and there is a seal of satisfaction, they can't be wrong

What exactly is so great about earthquakes anyway? Supposedly this one going to be the greatest. You would think they could find a better descriptions for their earthquake. There should be a thread with all that have gone missing and possibly raptured, I'm guessing it would be a very short list....I wonder if the milk box adds are going to change from Missing to Raptured?

or a thread with those that thought they were going to be rapture and photos of their face on May 22 when they 're still here

What do you think makes people believe these types of predictions and spend all their money or sell their houses and quit their jobs?

These are the same types of people that follow cults. Something in their mindset that makes them gullible/weakminded I guess, I've never really understood the whole follow blindly concept.


-What kind of proof would you need to believe an End of the World prediction?
I'm afraid there is no proof that would make me believe an End of World Prediction


-If the Rapture does occur, what would you say or do?
"Well F***! Guess I better get out my warm weather clothes!"

How many chances do you get when predicting the end of the world, is it like three strikes and your out or do you just spend a few years in the penalty box and get to come out later swinging.

Originally posted by chiefsmom
What do you think makes people believe these types of predictions and spend all their money or sell their houses and quit their jobs?

These are the same types of people that follow cults. Something in their mindset that makes them gullible/weakminded I guess, I've never really understood the whole follow blindly concept.

Yes, that's my opinion too. I wonder if these are the same people who believed him when he said the Rapture was going to be in 1994.

They aren't talking about the rapture are they... I thought they were talking about raptors...



no?

reply to post by Casandra



as someone who chooses to stay on earth...

I think people really dont want to take responsabilty for their own sins and would rather but their trust in jesus to save them, so thats why they belive in the rapture,
As for beleiving that its going to happen on a certain day based on a prediction, well even the bible says that no one will know when its going to happen, many people have pointed this out in other threads.
I dont need proof to belive an end of world prediction, I dont care if or when it comes..
I worry about the here and now, not tommorow.

If the rapture did occur, i would be happy , Because when we get to the great after party when the universe is all said and done, and all these people are wearing their "I went with jesus" t shirts, well i can proudly wear my "end of the world?...been there done that" t shirt.. i know which one i want to wear..

if all the good people go before the end of the world, whos going to be here to see it and report back to god?
whos going to man the gates and be the last one out...whos going to do the musical direction and sound effects??? if everyone left it would be a mighty boring finale to the planet..

This worlds too much fun to run from. im here for the long haul, and besides if you belive in reincarnation and multiverses, well the rapture is just not something to worry about..
to put it this way, if everyone started saying oh dear eating those burgers is going to kill us all unless we belive in the fairy godfather.. well ill just say that ok i never ate the burger anyway..
Im not making light of christians by the way, i respect them, but i dont want to go down that road to get to where im going.. its not the destination for me (heaven) its the journey..

reply to post by Casandra
Hello friend.

To the people who don't believe the rapture will happen this Saturday:
-What do you think makes people believe these types of predictions and spend all their money or sell their houses and quit their jobs?

Charismatic people expounding such beliefs, numberical mumbo-jumbo, and the desire to believe, all coupled with the lack of a solid foundation in the background details of their faith as well as a lack of discernment.

In other words, some people are easily snookered even with the best of intentions at times. Lots of people believe all sorts of things...looking into the whole penis theft as well as fan death outbreaks in Thailand (I believe) and asian countries, as well as the leader worship in North Korea.

Cognitive dissonnance also plays a big part in most things, in my opinion.

-What kind of proof would you need to believe an End of the World prediction?

Well, I do personally believe in an end of the world prediction, as given in the recognized bible.

The timeframe is the tricky bit, but we've been seeing a lot of the signs for quite awhile, and even just looking at the state of the world in general, I don't see us making any of the necessary EXTREME changes to turn things around. First off, the world itself SEEMS to be getting more chaotic, nature-wise, and we're got ongoing collapse of pollinating species; rampant water pollution by assorted toxins and hormones messing with human reproduction and other aspects of life; oceanic food chains on the brink of collapse due to overfishing, pollution, and various other factors; new drug-resistant and other apparently BAD new diseases cropping up in various areas; global food crisis with already ongoing starvation as well as crazy increases in food prices, and so forth...quite a few indicators here that need serious addressing very soon, which I don't see taking place for various reasons.

I've heard it said that we are either going to be the last generation to die, or the first to live forever (per recent scientific advances). I hope it's the latter, but don't realistically see it.

-If the Rapture does occur, what would you say or do?

Either die or live forever - the pre-tribulation rapture espoused recently is in error as I read it. The verses in Thessalonians you provided state: Christ will descend from heaven to the trumpet of God with the voice of an archangel, the dead will raise, and the living believers will be transmuted to be with him forever.

Revelation ch. 20 states:

4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

This says AFTER the tribulation, the dead in Christ will be resurrected to rule during the millenia, in the first resurrection - not subject to the second death (please note this is also one of the verses that leads me to disagree with the typical christian view of 'hell'). The 'rapture' does not occur until after the tribulation period - which we are yet to enter in full force.

So, I'd imagine on the 22nd, I will be dreading a return to work next week. Be well.

Originally posted by boncho
They aren't talking about the rapture are they... I thought they were talking about raptors...



no?

thats the wrong raptor, thats the antiraptor...
this is the raptor you were looking for...

She believes she wasn't saved if she's still here on May 22nd... what about when all of her friends from church are still here? and Mr. Camping? ... of course he could just take all the money he collected and run .. then everyone would think he was taken to heaven

reply to post by sprocket2cog


The velocirapture!

Good idea, bad execution. They should have used the Rapture mashine. Trailer with brightly lit entrance and sighn- come in to see jesus/god, witch would turn believers into dog food or fertilizer. No customer remorse on 22 guarantied:@)

To the people who don't believe the rapture will happen this Saturday:
-What do you think makes people believe these types of predictions and spend all their money or sell their houses and quit their jobs?
I think people have an emptiness in their lives and fall prey to other charismatic people who want to take advantage of them. Heck, I'll take care of all your finances post-Rapture for any pets, family members who are doomed etc, just send me all your $
-What kind of proof would you need to believe an End of the World prediction?
I'm Orthodox, the teachings I was raised with proclaim that all of humanity will know the time within their hearts and minds when it happens. Therefore if all of a sudden all of us stop what we're doing and are drawn somewhere, I would start to believe
-If the Rapture does occur, what would you say or do?
I'm fairly certain it won't, but if it does, I would pray for forgiveness and guidance, and for courage to protect me and my family from the hardness to come.... not that I don't do that already! LOL

reply to post by mileslong54

Originally posted by mileslong54
What exactly is so great about earthquakes anyway? Supposedly this one going to be the greatest.

It's supposed to unearth all of the dead so that they, too, are raptured.

I have read the entire Bible cover-to-cover and have read much of it numerous times, and I do believe there is ample evidence in both the OT and the NT for a pre-trib rapture. I DO NOT believe that belief in the rapture is a prerequisite for salvation. Whether or not one believes in the rapture had nothing to do with their salvation.

That said, I also fully believe that the Lord made it abundantly clear that the rapture will not be subject to happening on a particular date. There have been date-setting attempts based on "blood moons", harvests, numerology, Bible codes, etc. and one thing they all have in common is they've all been wrong. There were prophecies that had to be fulfilled before the rapture could take place, but those prophecies have already been fulfilled, the most notable being the reestablishment of Israel as a nation. So the rapture can happen at any time, and will come without warning. When people like Camping date-set, they are doing more harm than good. Because every single date that's ever been set for the rapture has been WRONG. This makes believers weak-in-the-faith start questioning their faith, and it makes unbelievers think Christians are a bunch of googly-eyed fools that are just waiting around to be zapped out of the world. We need to bring the message of salvation to people and quit these silly date-setting attempts that are just destined for failure.

Now, specific to Camping, I read most of his book about this particular 05-21 date. He takes legitimate scriptural passages and combines them with his own bizarre numerology to try and lead people to believe that his "math" is somehow scriptural (it isn't). He takes various numbers and tries to assign them significance based on the number of times they appear in scripture, then he multiplies them together to come up with a number of days, then he attempts to assign a specific date to Christ's crucifixion (also based on fuzzy math) and he adds the number to that date and comes up with 05-21-11. It's all completely bogus, and I seriously question whether he even believes it himself, or if perhaps he has another motive.

Now to answer your specific questions, obviously I don't believe Camping so I'll skip the first batch:

Originally posted by Casandra
To the people who don't believe the rapture will happen this Saturday:
-What do you think makes people believe these types of predictions and spend all their money or sell their houses and quit their jobs?

People want so desperately to escape their earthly lives and go to Heaven that they're willing to embrace outlandish theories at face value without bothering to investigate it themselves. If one has spent any time with the Bible and bothers to read Camping's book then they'll see the gaping flaws in his date-setting.

Originally posted by Casandra
-What kind of proof would you need to believe an End of the World prediction?

Do you mean a date-setting prediction? The proof would have to be scriptural substantiation for me to believe, and while the Bible is clear on the indications of the end times (and I firmly believe we are seeing those indications now) it is also clear that we will not know the exact day, but should instead be ever-prepared.

Originally posted by Casandra
-If the Rapture does occur, what would you say or do?

Well, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8), so whether I go to Him via the rapture or via death, you can bet I will be giving thanks to Him

People make these predictions because they want to live in heaven and get away from earthly issues. I'm religious but I dotn believe the rapture is going to happen anytime soon and I dont want it too. I still have far too much to do while I'm here.

Originally posted by miniatus
She believes she wasn't saved if she's still here on May 22nd... what about when all of her friends from church are still here? and Mr. Camping? ... of course he could just take all the money he collected and run .. then everyone would think he was taken to heaven

I'm VERY curious to see what Camping does on 05-22, I really wonder if he'll go into hiding so that his followers think that he did get raptured. What it boils down to is whether or not he believes this date he's pushing. If he believes it, he'll still be around on the 22nd and will no doubt make some sorry excuse about how he made a computational error. But if this is deliberate deception, he may very well go into hiding to try and lend credence to it.

The only reason I'm even interested in this topic is because of a dream I had about it and posted here a while back. (yeah, i know... it's just a dream.) At the time I had this dream, I knew there was some guy who predicted the rapture would happen around the 20th or so of May. That was all I knew about this subject at that time and certainly didn't give it any thought

then I went and had the dream that scared the hell out of me, it had details in it about the rapture and some huge worldwide earthquake. And now i'm hearing there is supposed to be some great earthquake.... oh nice, wonderful, as if living near the new madrid and having the biggest flood in american history down the road from me isn't enough.... all during a time when fema and the military are doing their infamous new madrid drill........ats, your killing me here! i'm just waiting for this weekend to be over so I can stop thinking about that awful dream. Seriously thinking about taking a trip this weekend..............

Originally posted by SavedOne

Originally posted by miniatus
She believes she wasn't saved if she's still here on May 22nd... what about when all of her friends from church are still here? and Mr. Camping? ... of course he could just take all the money he collected and run .. then everyone would think he was taken to heaven

But if this is deliberate deception, he may very well go into hiding to try and lend credence to it.

edit on 18-5-2011 by SavedOne because: typo

I wonder if all his newly made money will go into hiding with him?

I think that woman who says she'll believe she was left behind will be the minority. I think those who sold everything they own and are left to deal with that realization are going to be pretty pissed, either at Camping himself, or at God for leaving them behind with nothing.