What if America falls?

Originally posted by RSF77
reply to post by old_god

 

I reckon you will develop carpal tunnel from having your fingers crossed for rest of your life.

I don't cross my fingers, if I did I wouldn't be able to type on my keyboard

Originally posted by ariel bender

*snip*


The US Dollar was the settlement currency for world trade, as was agreed at the Bretton Woods treaty of 1947. When the US abandoned the treaty in 1971 by creating a Fiat currency ( petro dollar), it set the stage for todays banking crisis, which is connected but still separate from the US Dollar Crisis.

As was mentioned earlier, many nations are abandoning the US dollar and signing trade treaties settling in RMB, Ruble, Euro, GBP, and Yen. in the future we will probably see a basket of currencies as manner to settle trade, but either way the US dollar will continue to be decimated. The level of collapse will depend entirely on the US governments ability to manage its debt and deficit.

*snip*

Yes, this is exactly the same of what I've been saying here on ATS for 2 years now!

I very much agree with this analysis, and this is the first time I've read a post from another member who actually agree with me on this plausible scenario, so thanks for posting.

And IMO, the new currency basket and new "World Reserve" for world trade will probably be based on the IMF's SDR currency basket of today, but with some additional currencies of the BRIC countries as well.

China FX head proposes adding BRICS currencies to SDR - report

SHANGHAI, May 5 (Reuters) - The IMF should consider including currencies of the BRICS countries and other emerging economies when it next reviews its Special Drawing Right (SDR) system by 2015, the head of China's foreign exchange authority said in remarks published on Thursday.

The SDR, the IMF's internal accounting unit and reserve asset, comprises the U.S. dollar, British pound, euro and Japanese yen. Chinese officials have asserted that widening the basket to include currencies such as China's yuan , would heighten its profile as a potential reserve currency.

Meeting in the southern Chinese island of Hainan last month, leaders of the BRICS countries -- Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa -- called for a revamped global monetary system that relies less on the dollar.

my.news.yahoo.com...

IMF Board to Discuss Possible Expansion of SDR Role.

This year, Davos has been a-buzz with talk of expanding the currency basket that underlies the SDR, a notional currency that at present has only four constituents: the dollar, the euro, sterling and the yen.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev told the assembled guests in Davos earlier in the week that the currencies of the four largest emerging economies — Brazil, Russia, India and China — should all be included in the SDR basket, while French President Nicolas Sarkozy, this year’s chairman of the Group of 20 industrial and developing nations, repeated his argument that the Chinese renminbi, at the very least, should be included in the basket, reflecting the increasing weight of China in the world economy and weakening the dominance of the dollar.

blogs.wsj.com...

UN wants new global currency to replace dollar

The dollar should be replaced with a global currency, the United Nations has said, proposing the biggest overhaul of the world's monetary system since the Second World War.

In a radical report, the UN Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD) has said the system of currencies and capital rules which binds the world economy is not working properly, and was largely responsible for the financial and economic crises.

Although a number of countries, including China and Russia, have suggested replacing the dollar as the world's reserve currency, the UNCTAD report is the first time a major multinational institution has posited such a suggestion.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

IMF discusses plan to replace dollar as reserve currency - calls for dollar alternative

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- The International Monetary Fund issued a report Thursday on a possible replacement for the dollar as the world's reserve currency.

The IMF said Special Drawing Rights, or SDRs, could help stabilize the global financial system.

The goal is to have a reserve asset for central banks that better reflects the global economy since the dollar is vulnerable to swings in the domestic economy and changes in U.S. policy.

In addition to serving as a reserve currency, the IMF also proposed creating SDR-denominated bonds, which could reduce central banks' dependence on U.S. Treasuries. The Fund also suggested that certain assets, such as oil and gold, which are traded in U.S. dollars, could be priced using SDRs.

money.cnn.com...

reply to post by ExCommando


Ok, I love these debates...

First off bare with me a minute I am at work and have been only been able to read the first 4 pages or so, and if some of this has been brought up later, my appolgises. However I wanted to add my thoughts on this while I can.

1. The NAU
I remeber hearing about this back in high school and everyone thought I was nuts, and the first step of this was NAFTA and GAT, now they have been going full speed ahead trying to implement more and more unification of the three countries. The concept on paper is great, no borders, traiff free trades, sharing jobs across North America, uninterupted travel, and economic streangth for a unified currency, and a security corridor around all of North America... See sounds great on paper, but implementaion this would destroy the national identity of not only of th U.S., but of Canada and Mexico as well. Everyone has to agree that no matter where you are from, atleast in North America, love thier respected countries even if there are major problems there. You have to look no farther than the E.U. to see how these unions destroy any and all national idenity and sovereignty. No country should go through that, every country has mass amounts of history and culture, and deserves the right to exist and not to impose its will on others. Yes this includes the U.S. currently.

2. Restoring the U.S.A. as an Economic Super Power.
Besides TARP, obscene taxation of anything the federal government can tax, as well as other entitlement programs, the easiest and simplist solutions to bring America back to being the economic superpower it was is really simple.

End The Federal Reserve:
Borrowing from a private non-govermental agency with intrest, when it is the sole responsibility of the Federal Government to produce the currency of the counrty, needs to be stopped, and return to either a gold or silver standard for the country.

End Free Trade
End free trade with othe countries. This is where the Federal Government was suppose to create revenue from primarily, traiffs on foriegn goods. This will make U.S. goods cheaper, and help create a balance in prices, allowing U.S. companies to produce better quality jobs and products.

Bring American Corporations Back to U.S. Soil
The past several decades have seen the rise in service based companies, this is due to the manurfacturing base being shipped overseas for the bennifit of cheaper labor.If a company wants to be sell its product in the U.S. and call itself a U.S. company, it needs to be IN the U.S..This will help create more jobs, increase our manufacturing base back to U.S. soil and increase the number of "Blue Collar" jobs that have been eviserated in he past few decades. If the companies wish to stay overseas and on foriegn soil you tax them as a with tariffs as you would another countries goods.

Create a Fair Tax System
A 10% straight tax for everyone, no matter of income level. This combined with the tariffs will give the Federal Government a decent budget for defense of the states, and the liberty of it's people. Not to mention the fact that this would free up and save millions on the federal payroll.

Abolish Non Needed Federal Government Agencies
EPA, DHS, Dept of Education, DOE, FDA, just to name a few. These agencies should be at the state level, and again would save several hundred billions of dollars.

End Foriegn Aid
End all foriegn aid. This is simple. This again will save hundred of billions of dollars.

Mine/Drill/ and Use Resources in the U.S.
The U.S. has the worlds largest coal reserves, as well as as oil. Utilizing these resources such as clean burning coal, etc until we can create effective renewable energfy sources. These should be American companies, no non American companies should be not allowed to drill or mine for these. This again will create hunderds of thousands of jobs, increasing the economic power of the U.S.

[B]Pull All American Forces Home
Close all bases across the world, end all current military engagments, and bring our forces home, again this will save trillions of dollars.

Return To Isolationism
Adopt our historic policy of isolationism, and not mettle in the affairs of the world. This however does not me taking the battle to who does something to us, we have the ability and means to take the fight to anyone in the world that strikes at the U.S., if they wish to fight us.

End Nation Building
Again several hundreds of billions saved.

More to come but work is calling.

Grim

P.S. S&F great post!

Originally posted by civilchallenger

Originally posted by watcher3339
reply to post by civilchallenger

 

I'm so glad you brought up China. When you mentioned their GDP was growing like wildfire, I couldn't help but think... gee... if China's GDP is doing that I'll bet their spending to GDP ratio is low. I looked it up and what do you know... it was one of the lowest on the list.
Source: anepigone.blogspot.com...

You live in polar opposite land! Free market economists have zero to do with pro-regulation economists. Its pro-regulation ideas that dominate corporations, the governments, and the news media. The pro-regulators are the ones calling the shots. And here you sit saying the studies are biased. Are you freakin' kidding me! Yeah, the studies are biased AGAINST the free market. Big business loves regulation because it keeps them on top and the little guys down. I welcome you to get together with me and study this issue. There is a lot I have not looked at. What do you think the corporate lobbyists are doing all day long? They are thinking up legislation that regulates the markets in a way that benefits their employer. And the reason they are paid big bucks is because their lobbying pays off.

Also, I don't see how you taking credit for things you didn't do is semantics. It isn't. Your use of "we" is a mind game developed by control freaks to manipulate people into accepting their ideas and their commands. "We" need to do this. "We need to eat lots of bran." Its not a semantics game, its a mind game... one used to control others against their will. When I notice people using that mind game they are unwillingly sucked into and adapt, I call it out.

You say you could think of isolationist policies that would benefit people inside the US borders. Please don't hold back. Much in the same way I anticipate a free energy machine that will give us free infinite wealth, I anticipate you providing me with a system of isolationism that benefits the US general public in any way. And as I said, the studies are stacked in a bias against free market economics and for isolationism because most economists think they can come up with a series of convenient knobs and dials that regulate an economy to prosperity.

edit on 9-5-2011 by civilchallenger because: missing "for" in "for isolationism"

edit on 9-5-2011 by civilchallenger because: replaced "keynesian" with "pro-regulation"

edit on 9-5-2011 by civilchallenger because: (no reason given)

I agree with you entirely that the studies are not free market, they are corporate politics. Globalism works for the big corporations. I am just tired of the pretense that American Branded Corporations and Products are "American". If they aren't made here they aren't American. Perhaps their board of directors is American but I don't go for Amercan branding if it doesn't equate to American jobs.

I still disagree with you about the semantics issue.
You seem to speak as if the United States of America as an entity has ceased to exist. To address the idea of the U.S. as a whole is by its nature a singular plural...it requires a group pronoun, hence "we" as in "We the people". And, We do feed the world. We can build shelter. We can exist in fair isolation from the rest of the world. If you would like me to capitalize it to better reference the We of "We the people of these united states" I will be happy do so and even conceed it as a clarification.

Regarding isolation.
It's not that I don't understand where you are coming from, but I think that position is played out. Isolation that could work?
Bring home the troops. It costs a lot of money, tears, and bad PR with the rest of the world to have them out and about. In another post someone equated them to a dog on a leash. That imagery resonated with me and I feel the best way to break the leash is to bring them home.

Build and buy American! Yes, it will be more expensive for goods, but that is coming anyway. China is raising wages following suicides and strikes and in recognition that the One Child policy has left them short of the seemingly endless supply of workers that allowed for their non inflationary policies. Inflation is coming from all sorts of markets. We are going to have to pay more anyway. Let's pay it for products that provide jobs here.

Stop sending matter of fact political aid. Billions of it. All to get the powers that be in countries that don't really like us to say that they like us. It doesn't change a whole lot of what they actually do. There was a time (Cold War) where buying influence made more sense. Now, we are paying but we aren't getting a whole lot. People need to learn to either be our friend because they want to be our friend or just admit that they aren't. Are we really so desperate for "friends" that we have to pay them? I know we are trying to control the world and make it "better for us" with that money but it seems like better for us really means better for the American "branded" companies mentioned above. And oil. Can't forget about the oil...

As far as what China is spending? Are you talking about their lack of social programs? I agree that there is a lot of waste in our social programs, but I would like to change the bath water without tossing the baby. I believe that there is a place for a safety net in civilized society. I recognize that not everyone agrees with me. However, I do think that the safety net and the relative prosperity of the Middle Class in the U.S. and elsewhere is what kept Marxism from spreading globally. If the have and have nots get far enough apart, there will be issues. I am by no means a Marxist but I will credit his powers of observation on that one. I expect to see increased social programs in China across the next fifty years. And decreases in Europe. The U.S. should get rid of the fraud and abuse and then stay about the same.

SO, despite our areas of disagreement, I suspect that neither of us owns multiple million dollar mansions and that both of us would like to see an improved or at least static standard of living in the U.S. This reply is already pretty long so I will just ask you, since you too clearly think about things, what would you suggest. If it was your game? If you had final say. You are dictator for two years and can make anything the way you want it in terms of policy. What would you do?

edit on 10-5-2011 by watcher3339 because: My whole response is stuck in quote block. And it still is. Sorry about that!

Originally posted by watcher3339
Regarding isolation.
It's not that I don't understand where you are coming from, but I think that position is played out. Isolation that could work?
Bring home the troops. It costs a lot of money, tears, and bad PR with the rest of the world to have them out and about. In another post someone equated them to a dog on a leash. That imagery resonated with me and I feel the best way to break the leash is to bring them home.

Build and buy American! Yes, it will be more expensive for goods, but that is coming anyway. China is raising wages following suicides and strikes and in recognition that the One Child policy has left them short of the seemingly endless supply of workers that allowed for their non inflationary policies. Inflation is coming from all sorts of markets. We are going to have to pay more anyway. Let's pay it for products that provide jobs here.

Stop sending matter of fact political aid. Billions of it. All to get the powers that be in countries that don't really like us to say that they like us. It doesn't change a whole lot of what they actually do. There was a time (Cold War) where buying influence made more sense. Now, we are paying but we aren't getting a whole lot. People need to learn to either be our friend because they want to be our friend or just admit that they aren't. Are we really so desperate for "friends" that we have to pay them? I know we are trying to control the world and make it "better for us" with that money but it seems like better for us really means better for the American "branded" companies mentioned above. And oil. Can't forget about the oil...

Isolationism means that you discourage interaction with other countries. Bringing our troops home encourages more interaction with other countries. Therefore, its not an isolationist policy to do that but actually the exact opposite.

I do agree that sending political aid to other countries would be a good idea, and in some sense that could be called isolationist. So you've sold me on at least that point.

Buying local products is a good idea when the prices are comparable. However, if prices are not comparable then buying local is shooting yourself and therefore your economy in the foot. Overpaying for products isn't a way to get rich or help others get less poor. I personally take steps to help fellow men in need by doing things like giving food to them, helping them find a job, etc. That helps solves the problem... rather than just create a perpetual dependency and complete lack of problem solving done by government organizations.

SO, despite our areas of disagreement, I suspect that neither of us owns multiple million dollar mansions and that both of us would like to see an improved or at least static standard of living in the U.S. This reply is already pretty long so I will just ask you, since you too clearly think about things, what would you suggest. If it was your game? If you had final say. You are dictator for two years and can make anything the way you want it in terms of policy. What would you do?

A multi-million dollar mansion wouldn't be a game changer, because there are billions of poor in the world. Even Bill Gates can't single-handedly make a huge difference. Therefore, a dictator would be hard-pressed to solve the problem much better than you or I. Dictators are politicians, and politicians are worthless. So the first thing I would do as dictator is resign. Here is what would do as ME. As ME, I would help encourage the free marketplace to work its magic like in Hong Kong. I would for example join the Free State Project and help set an example of how a body of free people actually become economically successful and are then able to help others in need.

Right now I'm doing my part to help poor people people get the food they need, and as dictator I could only make things worse because I'd be operating on the assumption that forcing people to do things against their will is a step that helps people "for their own good". Its a self contradiction. If you are forcing someone to do something against their will, then its obviously not "for their own good" (if they have a half-decent IQ). People who tax me are taxing me are doing that for their own good, not my own good.

As far as what China is spending? Are you talking about their lack of social programs? I agree that there is a lot of waste in our social programs, but I would like to change the bath water without tossing the baby. I believe that there is a place for a safety net in civilized society. I recognize that not everyone agrees with me. However, I do think that the safety net and the relative prosperity of the Middle Class in the U.S. and elsewhere is what kept Marxism from spreading globally. If the have and have nots get far enough apart, there will be issues. I am by no means a Marxist but I will credit his powers of observation on that one. I expect to see increased social programs in China across the next fifty years. And decreases in Europe. The U.S. should get rid of the fraud and abuse and then stay about the same.

China apparently has low government spending. Therefore, it can be predicted that their middle class is growing... people in poverty are moving out of poverty in China. Over the next 50 years China can be predicted to increase their social programs, and therefore China may as well forget about shrinking their poverty class and may as well assume their middle class won't be doing any more growing. Thats how economics works. When a country moves to spend more money on social programs, then their economy stops growing because the money is spent on social programs instead of being spent on creating productive jobs that allow people to feed them self.

It's democracy in action! So if the U.S. falls, it falls. The resluting chaos in the world economy will be enough to kick off a full-blown scramble to produce a new "power base" for other world governments to form around, and then everyone one on the planet will be ecstatic because the U.S. will have finally gotten what it deserves! and then the U.S. will get up and dust itself off, and will get on with life. And will remember who was kicking us when we were down! The analogy that the U.S. is a lot like the Roman Empire is good, but it's not the U.S. that is like the Roman Empire, that would be the E.U. Anyway, the U.S. has it's problems, in fact, according to 99.9%of the people that live on this planet, we are the ONLY problem. It must be nice to live in one of those other Utopian countries, you know, like China, Iran, Canada. Anyway, when it happens, it happens! I can't say it's gonna be good for me, but as far as what it does to the rest of the world, I could care less !!!!!!!!!!! The U.S.A. is here to stay. Believe it. Plus, we still have lots and lots of nukes ! ! ! ! ! !

reply to post by CosmosKid


We are democratic republic not a democracy... Big difference, democracy is nothing more tha mob rule.

Grim

Originally posted by Grimmley
reply to post by CosmosKid

 

We are democratic republic not a democracy... Big difference, democracy is nothing more tha mob rule.

Grim

Democracy is rule by the people. A Republic is supposedly rule by the people. So, a republic is a FORM of democracy, where people vote for Representatives that will do their bidding. That is a theoretic type of rule by the people. What we have in America is mob rule transformed into corporate rule.