May 21st, 2011 End of the World - Claim and Rebuttal

Originally posted by Konstantinos
reply to post by Duskangels

 

I can assure you that Matthew did not write his gospel in Greek, so there's your first mistake.

I've read some of the articles from various people making this claim, but I've also read articles giving equally convincing arguments to the contrary. I don't have time to get into the details on this, but the point is that this is hardly as cut-and-dried as some say. At the very least, since the oldest ms. we have are in Greek and they are not far extant from the originals, and since there is no irrefutable evidence that the originals were in another language, I think it's best to simply hold this as an opinion and not a fact.

Your second is your arrogance in thinking you have figured out God's plan.

Agree that many people are arrogant about their convictions, but that can apply to both sides of any debate. Just an observation. ;-)

Tell me, who would the Lord favour? He who preaches the dread of judgement and fear of going to hell? Or he who preaches tolerance, love, and acceptance of all life WITHOUT JUDGING OTHERS?

I agree that many have turned the "good news" into "bad news" and sold it like fire insurance. But at the same time, I disagree that it is mean or hateful to warn people about a danger up ahead. The difference, IMHO, is attitude: do they hate the people they are preaching to and hope they go to hell, or do they love the people and because of that they warn them? We're not all diplomats and we do our best, regardless of what it is we're preaching (religious or otherwise), so I'd be more cautious about declaring who the Lord might accept, as only God can see into the heart.

May I also point out the history of the Rapture comes from a Christian cult and not from biblical writings, or traditions?

This is a very common claim but one I strongly object to. I've only had time to take a brief look at the link you provided, and already in the first few paragraphs I see several cases of "poisoning the well" and other ad hominem argumentation, along with this common charge of "cult" roots for the Rapture. But in the end, the important thing is whether this teaching comes from scripture, not church history, so such articles are really irrelevant.

I DO NOT support Mr. Camping's views; his calculations and interpretations of scripture are contrived and nonsensical. Many Christians have already pointed out in various threads that we cannot know the exact day or hour, but that we must be alert at all times and recognize the general "season" or "signs of the times". So though by sheer blind luck he may be like the proverbial broken clock that's right twice a day, I'm treating this Sat. like any other day. My philosophy is to live each day like Jesus is coming back today, but plan for living out my normal lifespan; heart in heaven, feet on the ground.

(I have issues with Orthodox theology anyway, and of course the linked article is filtered through their views just as everyone else does. They are entitled to believe whatever makes sense to them, but not to belittle those who disagree. Mr. Camping may be a cult leader, but it is the fallacy of "guilt by association" to lump all who believe the pre-trib. rapture in with his ilk.)

There is no such thing as rapture. The main "proof" is based on one verse written by a guy in a LETTER he wrote to some other guys.

And this guy never met Jesus, preached just about everything Jesus prophesied would be preached by FALSE PROPHETS and based his "gospel" on a "vision" he had. Today, you have tons of guys like this on YouTube who claim to have "visions". And their preachings are just as vain as those from this guy.

If you throw out the claims from this guy, and recognize him for what he really was (the one Jesus warned about) you are left with only a small part of the New Testament where (since this guys influence on other writers would also be out) there is no mention of any rapture or anything of that kind. In fact, since this guy wrote BEFORE the other four guys who wrote the gospels - it is evident that those four based THEIR gospels on hearsay and the teachings of this guy.

When you filter all that junk out - you are left with "Q" - the sayings of Jesus, which was INDEED his Gospel - and his clear message of him being a Messenger of God sent to the Jews (not to the world, not to be "the saviour", not to be "the lamb", etc.).

He calls you to God and warns you about this guy.

Yet you chose this guy over Jesus.

Therefore you are in fact not christians. You are PAULIANS.

We have 24 hours left..........

.......what are you going to do in the final hours?

Originally posted by SaberTruth

I've read some of the articles from various people making this claim, but I've also read articles giving equally convincing arguments to the contrary. I don't have time to get into the details on this, but the point is that this is hardly as cut-and-dried as some say. At the very least, since the oldest ms. we have are in Greek and they are not far extant from the originals, and since there is no irrefutable evidence that the originals were in another language, I think it's best to simply hold this as an opinion and not a fact.

I too have read articles on both sides of the coin, except in my case I have come to agreement with the stance that Koine Greek was the first translation of the gospels, rather than the original language they were written in.

Agree that many people are arrogant about their convictions, but that can apply to both sides of any debate. Just an observation. ;-)

What I was trying to point out is the arrogance of those who look @ the bible and it's content and say "A-HA! Ok, now I know what God is planning!" instead of looking at it as a mystery.

I agree that many have turned the "good news" into "bad news" and sold it like fire insurance. But at the same time, I disagree that it is mean or hateful to warn people about a danger up ahead. The difference, IMHO, is attitude: do they hate the people they are preaching to and hope they go to hell, or do they love the people and because of that they warn them? We're not all diplomats and we do our best, regardless of what it is we're preaching (religious or otherwise), so I'd be more cautious about declaring who the Lord might accept, as only God can see into the heart.

Respectfully, you're assuming that I'm categorizing the "fire-insurance" ones as hateful. I did not, I only meant that they are doom-sayers. To warn someone of a danger ahead is to play on their fears. Personally I believe salvation would stem from daily acts of kindness out of the desire to be kind. Not based on the fear that "I might go to hell if I don't do this, this and this". My original question about the Lord's acceptance was meant as a tool of self reflection and not judgement, and I apologize if it was not clear in that manner. From a personal level I'm just tired of Christian fear-mongering. Being a Christian myself, I prefer to just focus on living life to the best of each of our abilities, treating others fairly and respectfully, instead of warning of them of the "fires and brimstone" of hell... really? What's the point of dwelling on possible damnation?

This is a very common claim but one I strongly object to. I've only had time to take a brief look at the link you provided, and already in the first few paragraphs I see several cases of "poisoning the well" and other ad hominem argumentation, along with this common charge of "cult" roots for the Rapture. But in the end, the important thing is whether this teaching comes from scripture, not church history, so such articles are really irrelevant.

Well, the article may be irrelevant to you but may not be to others who still respect the opinion of those who have studied theology for the better part of their lives. Since you've already made your point about having issues with Orthodox theology, would a Catholic article be more convincing for you?
To summarize what I've been taught in the Orthodox faith (and I certainly do not claim any theological credentials) is that the rapture would occur post-tribulation, so the hardship in Revelations will be something all (faithful and non-faithful) will have to go through... there's no eject button to skip out of tribulation.

I DO NOT support Mr. Camping's views; his calculations and interpretations of scripture are contrived and nonsensical. Many Christians have already pointed out in various threads that we cannot know the exact day or hour, but that we must be alert at all times and recognize the general "season" or "signs of the times". So though by sheer blind luck he may be like the proverbial broken clock that's right twice a day, I'm treating this Sat. like any other day. My philosophy is to live each day like Jesus is coming back today, but plan for living out my normal lifespan; heart in heaven, feet on the ground.

Of this, we are both in agreement!

Originally posted by Konstantinos
I too have read articles on both sides of the coin, except in my case I have come to agreement with the stance that Koine Greek was the first translation of the gospels, rather than the original language they were written in.

Point being that we both allow that the other side may be right.

What I was trying to point out is the arrogance of those who look @ the bible and it's content and say "A-HA! Ok, now I know what God is planning!" instead of looking at it as a mystery.

One can only call it arrogance if one first presumes that it's a mystery; this is circular reasoning. As textual criticism goes, the Greek NT we have is at least as well-attested as anything else, and I'm convinced that it's reliable. So since we have a very good idea of what the original words were (or the totality of ancient documents are all fiction), then God has clearly told us what he is planning, and it is not arrogant to say so. What I call arrogant is when people take all disagreement as hate or lies or forgeries.

Respectfully, you're assuming that I'm categorizing the "fire-insurance" ones as hateful. I did not, I only meant that they are doom-sayers. To warn someone of a danger ahead is to play on their fears. Personally I believe salvation would stem from daily acts of kindness out of the desire to be kind. Not based on the fear that "I might go to hell if I don't do this, this and this". My original question about the Lord's acceptabce was meant as a tool od self reflection and not judgemtn, and I apologize if it was not clear in that manner. From a personal level I'm just tired of Christian fear-mongering. Being a Christian myself, I prefer to just focus on living life to the best of each of our abilities, treating others fairly and respectfully, instead of warning of them of the fires and brimstone of hell... really? What's the point of dwelling on possible damnation?.

So if there's a tornado coming and I warn you, I'm playing on your fears????

Then every time the government tells us there's a terrorist threat, a natural disaster, a flu epidemic coming, they are fearmongering, right?

What's the point of saying we love people if we never warn them of impending doom? Why tell children not to play in the street, lest we make them afraid?

I'm sorry, but this line of reasoning is something I'll never accept, because I care too much about others to fail to warn them of danger.

Well, the article may be irrelevant to you but may not be to others who still respect the opinion of those who have studied theology for the better part of their lives. Since you've already made your point about having issues with Orthodox Theology, would a Catholic article be more convincing for you?
To summarize what I've been taught in the Orthodox faith (and I certainly do not claim any theological credentials) is that the rapture would occur post-tribulation, so the hardship in Revelations will be something all (faithful and non-faithful) will have to go through... there's no eject button to skip out of tribulation..

It's irrelevant because of its appeal to church history, not simply because it's Orthodox. What's relevant is what scripture says, which includes "I will keep you out of the hour of trial that is to come upon the world" (Rev. 3:10).

It is now 12:41 AM here on the Pacific Rim.

I can report that I was not raptured.

Since I am alone in this apartment, however, I can't speak for the rest of this timezone

Somehow I am not too worried about this, at least not today.

Originally posted by SaberTruth
It's irrelevant because of its appeal to church history, not simply because it's Orthodox. What's relevant is what scripture says, which includes "I will keep you out of the hour of trial that is to come upon the world" (Rev. 3:10).

Well put responses, and I can respect your stance. I suppose I'm more of a supporter of spreading Christianity via kindness, harmony and respect instead of warnings of damnation if one does not heed Christian faith. I'm not saying your position is wrong, I just don't agree with it as a recruitment tool for the masses.

I'd like to focus on your mentioning of Rev 3:10 as I think the translation can be taken in different ways.
The original that I have here is
"ὅτι ἐτήρησας τὸν λόγον τῆς ὑπομονῆς μου, κἀγώ σε τηρήσω ἐκ τῆς ὥρας τοῦ πειρασμοῦ τῆς μελλούσης ἔρχεσθαι ἐπὶ τῆς οἰκουμένης ὅλης, πειράσαι τοὺς κατοικοῦντας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς."

"I will keep you out of the hour of trial" = "κἀγώ σε τηρήσω ἐκ τῆς ὥρας τοῦ πειρασμοῦ"
τηρήσω means both "Keep you/protect" but also "watch over" and "observe"

"time (not necessarily hour) of trial that is to come upon the earth" which is "πειράσαι τοὺς κατοικοῦντας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς."
The trasnlation of "πειράσαι" is not necessarily "Trial" but also of "temptation".

As you can see, another translation can be, "I will observe/watch over you during the time of temptation that is to come over the earth" which may not mean a physical rapture. But a spiritual protection for the faithful over the temptations and hardship of the tribulation.

Originally posted by Konstantinos
Well put responses, and I can respect your stance.

Thank you. :-)

I suppose I'm more of a supporter of spreading Christianity via kindness, harmony and respect instead of warnings of damnation if one does not heed Christian faith. I'm not saying your position is wrong, I just don't agree with it as a recruitment tool for the masses.

You've never been to my blog. ;-) I rant often about how badly most people mangle the "good news". The reality of hell is our motivation to spread the gospel, but the gospel we are to spread is that Jesus rose from the dead and that whoever puts their trust/faith in him will be reconciled to God. But this logically leads to the question, "What happens if we don't reconcile to God?", or, "Why do you feel so compelled to convert me?" We must be ready with an answer, and of course to do so out of genuine love and concern instead of condemnation. Yes there are zealous but misguided Christians who preach "fire and brimstone" or "fire insurance" as I call it, but the other extreme of denying the reality of what eternity apart from God will be like is just as bad. Check my signature for a link to my books, and then select Reconciled. This is where I focus on what I believe following Jesus and spreading the gospel is all about.

I'd like to focus on your mentioning of Rev 3:10 as I think the translation can be taken in different ways.

Yes, it can. But there are many instances where δια is used to convey the idea of being led safely through a trial (I view temptation as a subset of trials in general). For example, in 1 Cor. 3 Paul gives the illustration of people's good deeds being tested as by fire, and in v. 15 he says "ει τινος το εργον κατακαησεται ζημιωθησεται αυτος δε σωθησεται οὑτως δε ὡς δια πυρος" (if anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss yet he shall be saved thus, yet as through fire). Also, according to Wallace, when εκ is used with the genitive as in Rev. 3:10, it means "from, out of, away from, of, because of, by". In addition, since the bulk of the NT is all about the Spirit walking with us and sustaining us through the normal trials of life, this promise of Jesus is redundant if it only means he will still sustain us during that coming trial. For all these reasons I take it to mean being kept out and away from, not to go through safely. And of course this isn't the only passage on the end times in the NT, so I take those into consideration as well.

Nice to "get Greeky" for a change. :-P Thanks.

reply to post by SaberTruth


Interesting interpretaion of Rev 3:10, I see how you come to your conclusion that the passage speaks of physical protection rather than spiritual. I don't necessarily agree, but I can see your point.

As for getting Greeky, I can't help it, I am one! LOL
Translations I get are from my own knowledge of Koine Greek, not a complete knowledge regretfully, but enough that I can read the scriptures and than painstakingly translate into modern Greek, and then English.

I'm checking out your blog, thank you for the invite, I'm already intrigued with many of your writings

Originally posted by Konstantinos
As for getting Greeky, I can't help it, I am one! LOL

::gulp:: Now I have to be really, really careful. O.O I'm still an utter n00b at koine Greek and would love to take actual classes someday. I'm learning as I go along in making a free, online study NT and would greatly value any input (the link's in my sig but seems to be getting cut off now; it's bible.fether.net...)

Are you familiar with the work of Dr. Ann Nyland?

I'm checking out your blog, thank you for the invite, I'm already intrigued with many of your writings

I'm honored, thanks!

Originally posted by SaberTruth

::gulp:: Now I have to be really, really careful. O.O I'm still an utter n00b at koine Greek and would love to take actual classes someday. I'm learning as I go along in making a free, online study NT and would greatly value any input (the link's in my sig but seems to be getting cut off now; it's bible.fether.net...)

No no my friend, there is no reason to be "really" careful, my knowledge of Koine Greek is limited, most of it is at a Greek high-school level which does not delve too deep into the meanings of every single word, but I casually continue to study points of interest. I will check out your link over the long weekend perhaps (currently slacking @ work, shhhhhhhh!)

Are you familiar with the work of Dr. Ann Nyland?

Only very little, just that she has composed many translations, I believe her father was Greek as well? As I said, my Koine Greek studies were in modern Greek so many of the english translators were somewhat overlooked.
biblos.com... linked with strongsnumbers.com... does a pretty good job of translating on most verses.

reply to post by Realtruth


Glad to see you took care of those idiots..........you can think you can combat some of these 'Israel controls the world' useful idiots, shills, agents, etc.?

Originally posted by Konstantinos (currently slacking @ work, shhhhhhhh!)

Not to worry... it is Friday after all, and I have Dilbert cartoons on my RSS feed.

Only very little, just that she has composed many translations, I believe her father was Greek as well? As I said, my Koine Greek studies were in modern Greek so many of the english translators were somewhat overlooked.

biblos.com... linked with strongsnumbers.com... does a pretty good job of translating on most verses.

The biblos site is my current fav for quick searches.

I think you're right about Nyland's father. And she is a scholar in both koine and classical Greek, so I respect her research and greatly value the extensive notes in her The Source NT. I don't agree with her on some interpretations and there may be a few spots that other scholars contest, but too many people ignore her just because she's a woman. Which reminds me of another overlooked female scholar of the past, Katharine Bushnell, who is best known for her book God's Word to Women. She focused more on the Hebrew and exposed a lot of bad translation issues.

Originally posted by Realtruth
We have 24 hours left..........

.......what are you going to do in the final hours?

Well, at this precise moment I'm listening to the Street Preacher shout down the crowd shouting back at him, while both are being drowned out by the band playing in the park... It's not an end of the world thing though, this happens all the time (especially on sunny days) around here... Ah, it's kinda like the "unofficial" start of Summer!

Originally posted by LadySkadi

Originally posted by Realtruth
We have 24 hours left..........

.......what are you going to do in the final hours?

Well, at this precise moment I'm listening to the Street Preacher shout down the crowd shouting back at him, while both are being drowned out by the band playing in the park... It's not an end of the world thing though, this happens all the time (especially on sunny days) around here... Ah, it's kinda like the "unofficial" start of Summer!

At least the world'll move on while Camping & company go crazy with disbelief..........amirite? LOL.

RT will be enjoying his entire weekend.

And is wishing everyone here on ATS a wonderful and happy weekend, enjoy!

Well at 6 tonight...well see.

Harold should have stuck with Civil Engineering years ago, he would have help more people that way.

Chapter in Harold Camping final saga is closed for good.

Originally posted by Realtruth

Chapter in Harold Camping final saga is closed for good.

Until the IRS catches up to him...

Anyone remember this thread?


A great test if someone thinks the end is coming have them give you all their worldly goods, cause they don't need them, Right?


Peace out,

RT