Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

Bin Laden Raid May Have Exposed Stealth helicopter

page: 2
15
<< 1    3  4 >>

log in

join

posted on May, 4 2011 @ 05:51 PM
link   
More on the possible design at defensetech. Definitely Black-Project stuff seeing this tail-boom is the only sole example of its existance in the fleet (that's known of.) I'd go along with the copied Chinese model for similarities however the fuselage section doesn't look as sleek given the artistic renderings are going of.
Perhaps new material such as stealth composites than relying on the design capability itself is what's beginning to replace these designs, I know they have specialised paints for such tasks from the B2a project. Flying under the cover of darkness with the 'dampeners' over the rotors would have aided things further.

To me I'm starting to think they actually did get OBL, given the US wouldn't risk flying in a multi-billion dollar black-project craft into the hands of not only the Pakistani Government & Intelligence. But to OBL had the mission failed.

defensetech.org...




posted on May, 4 2011 @ 10:25 PM
link   

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
There's some better photos of the "surviving" bits on the Daily Mail

Looks like a UH-60 tail section with a highly modified rotor.



Yes, that looks like a highly modified UH-60 Tail rotor with very cool looking blade assembly.


Originally posted by roguetechie



Here you go guys here's a picture of the aft section of what appears to be the helo's fuselage!

Now to my eye I notice a couple things:

1: This beast is mostly composite: Here's why i think this if it had a metallic skin you would see "crumpling" where some of the pieces are folded under the main body that should be sitting vertically.

2. Whatever helo this was looks like it has a tail ramp: This sorta precludes a blackhawk as I don't know of any blackhawks that have tail ramps to my knowledge the only three helo's I can think of with tail ramps are the CH 46 Ch 47 ch 53. Out of all these the only one with a conventional tail assembly instead of dual rotors is the ch 53. Now another point to consider is special operations do in fact in make pretty heavy use of MH 53 pave hawk and other variants of this chopper. And if I was going to build a stealthy socom chopper i think I'd rather start with an Mh-53 instead of a blackhawk simply for the cargo capacity alone, mh 53's can fit small jeep type trucks inside in some configs.


THIS...is indeed part of the fuselage and the Main Rotor Assembly...NOT the tail boom and rotor as a later posted said.
And trying to say that this Rotor Assembly and fuselage in the picture is a modified UH-60 is like saying the AH-1Z Supercobra is a modified version of the original U-H1 Huey. Yes, in a technical and design sense...yes you can kind of say that...but really they are two very separate helicopters.

reply to post by RUDDD
 


Rudd...that is a great link and although not quite accurate to the picture of the Main Rotor assembly posted above...its probably not too far off.

------------
Really awesome topic, in the fact that once again we see evidence that military and technology are way above what the public knows about and certain areas of the government REALLY can keep a secret. Now we see why they really shut down the Comanche project...because they folded into a deeper or existing upgrade project.


This one just got away from them.



posted on May, 4 2011 @ 11:51 PM
link   
Has the 160th been hiding this ? Assuming it's the U.S. Army's If not; must belong to the company and Leon must be mad as hornet for this photo getting out.

Anyway, I flew the UH-60 L and M versions, but never seen anything like what's in the photo. I bet flying that craft handles like a dream, then again maybe not. I think this may have been some soft of field test for this craft, to see how it handles in an actual combat situation; looks like it didn't go so well.

Interesting design though never seen a tail rotor like that, except only from Boeing aircraft concept designs. Could this be a Stealth version of Sikorsky's? Maybe a new Boeing military transport helicopter design? The Sikorsky 60-M version has this new two-gigabyte PCMCIA to upload the flight information. So I guess with this new stealth version I can plug in my Iphone and upload the flight information now. I wonder if I can download the IVHMS data to the Iphone? I guess I'm just dreaming again. ('
')

So, was this shot down? Malfunction ? what the deal with this craft? how come it's not in a million pieces? who forgot to do there job here? The company is going to be P*****! if it's theirs wondering why it's not smoking with a million pieces laying around.

My educated guess why this craft crashed.(Settling with Power error) Hard to do in fully loaded BlackHawk. I myself almost lost it once fully loaded. thank god for the extra HP the 60-M has. saved my butt and everyone on board.

So no photos of OBL, but this stealth craft gets out. Someone needs to get their photo priority's straight here.


So, this is what i found so far. Here is a good illustration of what the entire craft might look like. scroll down to center of page.

BlackHawk Variant
edit on 5-5-2011 by SJE98 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 12:18 AM
link   
reply to post by Flatfish
 


Yup, The Comanche program has been canceled . last time I heard there was only three of them in inventory.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 01:38 AM
link   
Certainly looks like we've caught a glimpse of an operational project here, however, one thing that I have been thinking is that if it were truly more secret than secret, why arent US operatives over there recovering the intact peices, rather than letting them find themselves into a shipping container marked for Beijing.

It's well known that the Pakistani Miltiary and Intelligence agencies have close ties with the Chinese.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 08:06 AM
link   
reply to post by XKrossX
 



THIS...is indeed part of the fuselage and the Main Rotor Assembly...NOT the tail boom and rotor as a later posted said. And trying to say that this Rotor Assembly and fuselage in the picture is a modified UH-60 is like saying the AH-1Z Supercobra is a modified version of the original U-H1 Huey. Yes, in a technical and design sense...yes you can kind of say that...but really they are two very separate helicopters.


A star for that!

I have the same opinion about this new chopper. I think that the 7 billion dollars that was ostensibly used for the Comanche stealth helicopter was funneled into a (secret) project that actually produced a production model combat aircraft.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 08:28 AM
link   
On the news this morning (CNN or FOX...I can't remember) they had an "expert" who said this helicopter was a modified blackhawk with stealth technology.....

Anyway, I'm not here to argue over what type of helicopter it is, as I'm no expert; rather, I'm wondering what the US is going to do to retrieve the parts (which allegedly contain stealth technologies) that survived the demolition before it can be back engineered or sold to the highest bidder. Will we demand that Pakistan give it back or else lose the billions in aid we give them? Will we send in a special ops to retrieve it? Will the place where it is stored mysteriously blow up? Or is it just lost forever?



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 08:51 AM
link   
Now that I've seen some of the photos, I stand corrected, this is something new and it's definitely not a Comanche.

During the lead-up to the Iraq war, as part of the rapid deployment exercises carried out in the Port Of Corpus Christi we loaded, hundreds if not thousands, of military helicopters of every make and model and I've never seen this one before.

I'm not convinced that this helicopter has "radar stealth" capabilities because the tail rotor doesn't appear to be shrouded like that of the Comanche. I also noticed that there weren't any visible exhaust vents in the tail boom like those on the Comanche that are designed to disperse the heat signature of the craft so I doubt that it was stealthy in that respect either. I've heard of helicopters like the Apache Longbow that had a "Whisper" mode capability but these photos don't look like an Apache. On the other hand, this could definitely be some sort of a new "super quiet" Blackhawk designed for special forces.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 09:46 AM
link   

Originally posted by Aggie Man
On the news this morning (CNN or FOX...I can't remember) they had an "expert" who said this helicopter was a modified blackhawk with stealth technology.....

Anyway, I'm not here to argue over what type of helicopter it is, as I'm no expert; rather, I'm wondering what the US is going to do to retrieve the parts (which allegedly contain stealth technologies) that survived the demolition before it can be back engineered or sold to the highest bidder. Will we demand that Pakistan give it back or else lose the billions in aid we give them? Will we send in a special ops to retrieve it? Will the place where it is stored mysteriously blow up? Or is it just lost forever?


I recollect hearing on CNN and FOX that the US Government did ask the Pakistani government to return the wreckage. Not sure just for the sake of it to create a fictional secrecy or if it was legitimately a new technology helo.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 10:44 AM
link   
Yeah, now this story and pictures are all over the place.

Its probably too close to Armed Forces Day at Joint Base Andrews for them to have one there on the weekend of May 21st...particularly since they just lost one, but definitely by next year they'll probably have one sitting on the tarmac with the pretty velvet ropes and armed guards so people can look in awe at what their tax dollars have paid for.

Good thread and good info put together on this thread.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 03:34 PM
link   
All I can say is when I was Deployed to Iraq - I saw special forces/blackwater/??? types - with equiptment that defies articulation. Being former Avaition Maintenance - it would rock my world to think they have secret birds. As part of my career field I would attend planning meetings and long term scheduling conferences and I would just sit stunned at the slides showing that the inventories were just aging out. I kept telling my friends - they have got to have something we don't know about . . . they have too!
So wow, a helo that flew under the radar of knowledge . . . cool.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 04:16 PM
link   
A new picture of the wreckage appears to back up your assumption that the helicopter was advanced stealth technology.





posted on May, 5 2011 @ 04:43 PM
link   
I have a couple of questions and I know absolutely zip about choppers and all aircraft in general, but the posters on this thread seem to be knowledgeable, so maybe some light could be shed on this.

When this story first surfaced, one of the news commentators (forgive me, I don't remember which one, but it was on CNN or FOX) said that the chopper when down because of "a lack of air" and the other talking head jumped on this statement. He supported the original statement by saying that because of the 18 foot high walls, this was entirely probable.

According to the CIA released diagram of the compound, only one small section of the wall was 18 feet high and per the graphics the MSM are running, that section was opposite the triangular area where the chopper landed/went down. The diagram for that area indicates walls 10 and 12 feet high.

So my questions are....

1) What is the height of the chopper suspected to be a part of this mission? With rotors?
2) Does a chopper indeed "need air" to lift off?
3) If the chopper rotor height exceeds 10-12 feet from the ground, & a chopper does need air, then is there an explanation for this inconsistency?

Thanks in advance for helping me understand.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 07:39 PM
link   

Originally posted by ladyjem
I have a couple of questions and I know absolutely zip about choppers and all aircraft in general, but the posters on this thread seem to be knowledgeable, so maybe some light could be shed on this.

When this story first surfaced, one of the news commentators (forgive me, I don't remember which one, but it was on CNN or FOX) said that the chopper when down because of "a lack of air" and the other talking head jumped on this statement. He supported the original statement by saying that because of the 18 foot high walls, this was entirely probable.

According to the CIA released diagram of the compound, only one small section of the wall was 18 feet high and per the graphics the MSM are running, that section was opposite the triangular area where the chopper landed/went down. The diagram for that area indicates walls 10 and 12 feet high.

So my questions are....

1) What is the height of the chopper suspected to be a part of this mission? With rotors?
2) Does a chopper indeed "need air" to lift off?
3) If the chopper rotor height exceeds 10-12 feet from the ground, & a chopper does need air, then is there an explanation for this inconsistency?

Thanks in advance for helping me understand.


Good questions and I definitely appreciate someone taking the time to try and learn about....well...just about anything.

So, I am definitely not an "expert" by any stretch, but read and learn a lot and love all things military and will do my best.
--1) Hmmm...no idea really, from the pictures I have seen and what I have read, probably about the standard height of a regular blackhawk...if anything maybe a little bit shorter with the gear up, which I am assuming that a stealthier Helo would have a retractable landing gear rig to reduce radar signature in flight. That probably doesn't help in the context of your question, but likely the height doesn't really factor into the reasoning of it losing lift and pancaking into the ground.
--2)Well, yes think of each rotor blade as a skinny wing and as the blade passes through the air if creates lift that will allow the helicopter to rise.
Here is a quick little simple video that kind of explains it. Its kind of simple and cheesy but most of the other ones were many minutes long and lots of fluff.

3) Good question but I think that question over complicates how I understand that this problem occurred.
Here is the way I understand it....both Helo's were hovering over the compound and were not planning on landing and were "fast-roping" the troops to the ground, the same method from Blackhawk Down movie. During this operation one Helo suddenly lost lift and dropped to the ground.
Here is another quick and dirty vid that explains a little bit on how air moves through and around helicopter blades.


Pause this vid at the first few seconds and notice the red circles. Now imagine the red circles as the helo drops down into a high walled compound, those red circles will start encountering the obstructions of the walls that will change the way some air "recirculates" through the rotor and change the lift dynamics.
NOW, in most helo's, pilots know about this kind of stuff and will either not try it or add more power than they need to overpower the obstructions to airflow and make sure they have plenty of lift. This can cause real heavy stuff to fly around and can be a hazard to people on the ground close to a landing or hovering Helo.

But in this case, ( I THINK...again...I AM NO EXPERT), I have heard for noise suppression one of the main things (not only, but pretty close to the only thing) a helo can do to reduce its noise, is to slow the rotation or RPM's of the rotors to basically make them travel slower through the air not causing as much distrubance. The blades traveling through the air and creating turbulence is where nearly all of the noise is generated from in a Helo.

SO...A slower rotation on a newer helicopter that has probably seen very limited service and as such less trial and error, and less pilot practice
+ Hot dry or thin air at a higher elevation...(not sure of the elevation/air temp/humidity) Remember air can be thicker or thinner depending on conditions and thicker air is always better.
+weird triangular walls that may make the air do even stranger things
+another new helo right next/in front/behind you doing the same thing...and bam the conditions are right for those circles to change the amount of "blue air" from the video coming through and it hits the ground.

So I hope I didn't confuse you any more and this all made sense.

Again, I could be totally wrong and way off, but thats really the way I think it went down. Or it simply could have been something breaking...a mechanical failure of a new fancy piece of equipment which is common with new technology...like me going through 4 brand new phones in the first year of it being released...or some guy simply started plinking away with an AK and happened to hit something important. But the pics I have seen look like the rotor housing is pretty well protected as opposed to other choppers where alot of delicate stuff is exposed...so I still think my above explanation although long and drawn out is the most likely scenario.

Whew...long ass post...sorry for that, but I made it as short as I could.

--Kross

edit on 5-5-2011 by XKrossX because: Spelling and grammer tweak...



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 07:47 PM
link   
Yes there's some complex stuff that happens in a copter's downwash - I seem to recall a V-22 or maybe even 2 that crashed due to something called "vortex ring state" - this basically involves a copter settling into it's own down-wash - if the air the helicopter is in is going down then (as I understand it) the rotors have a limited ability to provide lift as they cannot acelerate the air downwards as much as if the air is "static".

there's an article on it on wiki - en.wikipedia.org... -


Vortex ring state (VRS), also known as settling with power, is a hazardous condition encountered in helicopter flight. It occurs when the helicopter has three things occurring: A high rate of descent, an airspeed lower than effective translational lift, and the helicopter is using a large portion of its available power.


Off the top of my head al these 3 seem likely in this situation - the copters are coming down fast, with a lot of power but not much forward speed.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 07:50 PM
link   
didnt we already have stealth choppers? (not undetectable by sight but by radar) and from what i heard from it, that the chopper was flying in spots where there radar system was weakest at....



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 07:58 PM
link   
reply to post by ashtonkusher
 


A chpper's rotor is an almighty radar target.

The only real stalth chopper ever built is/was the RAH-66 Comanche, which was cancelled in 2004 - en.wikipedia.org...

As you can see on that page it uses a shrouded rotor or "fenestron", and its rotor blades were probably made of some pretty intersting composite material to absorb radar.

but the evidence from the wrechkage is that he chopper was not an entirely new type - eg the tail rotor sems optimised for noise reduction rather than radar - the blades are still exposed, and the general configuration/arrangement of hte section is exactly that of a UH-60



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 08:26 PM
link   
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


Yeah, you are right...the official word is that the Comanche project was axed in 2004 by Gates. But as I said in a different topic, I think it was scrapped in the sense of a stealthy 2 seater recon helo in the current days of "other UAV/satellites for recon/real-time battlefield data is better" type of scrapped.
But the concepts, technology was folded into other black projects or upgrading the UH-60 with these concepts and technologies.

The Comanche tech concepts were too good and valuable to think that they just decided not to adapt it to other Helo projects.

Also in the pic of one of my earlier posts...you are right...the tail does seem to be very similar to config of a UH-60, but that pic of the Main Rotor Assembly and fuselage is definitely not. Hard to tell scale but the distance from actual blade joint to the fuselage looks much longer and more of an angle to the fuselage than a standard UH-60...not to mention enclosed. But again kind of hard to tell scale in that pic.



posted on May, 5 2011 @ 08:29 PM
link   
Saw this youtube video awhile ago. Kinda looks like the rotors are the same.




posted on May, 5 2011 @ 08:34 PM
link   
I found this on Global Security.org they call it the MH-X Advanced special forces helicopter www.globalsecurity.org...

Then this one which tells how the MH-X came into existence: www.globalsecurity.org...

Maybe they will give light to the topic but who knows really.






top topics



 
15
<< 1    3  4 >>

log in

join