How America Will Control Iraq With An Elected Democratic Government

ArchAngel,

Did you even read the documents you posted this drivel from, or are you merely taking someone else’s interpretation of it as gospel? For if you actually read it, then one must conclude that you either willfully ignored the parts that didn’t fit into your narrow view of America as the big, bad, imperial, oppressor, or you didn’t fully comprehend it. Either way you’re wrong. Here’s why.

First: Article 1 section A of the LAW OF ADMINISTRATION FOR THE STATE OF IRAQ FOR THE TRANSITIONAL PERIOD

This section clearly states that:

This Law shall be called the “Law of Administration for the State of Iraq for the Transitional Period,” and the phrase “this Law” wherever it appears in this legislation shall mean the “Law of Administration for the State of Iraq for the Transitional Period.”

This means that the “LAW OF ADMINISTRATION FOR THE STATE OF IRAQ” is only law FOR THE TRANSITIONAL PERIOD! The section you quote that confirms the establishing of the Iraqi Special Tribunal specifically states:

That statute exclusively defines its jurisdiction and procedures, notwithstanding the provisions of this Law.

Meaning that the laws set forth in the Law of Administration take precedent over anything laid out in the IST’s founding statute.

So, what then is the “transitional period” exactly you ask? Well, in Article 2 section B, it just as clearly states that:

The term “transitional period” shall refer to the period beginning on 30 June 2004 and lasting until the formation of an elected Iraqi government pursuant to a permanent constitution as set forth in this Law, which in any case shall be no later than 31 December 2005, unless the provisions of Article 61 are applied.

And Article 61 further sets forth that the transitional period can only be extended

“with the agreement of a majority of the members’ votes” and that “the final deadlines for preparing a new draft [of the constitution] may be changed to make it possible to draft a permanent constitution within a period not to exceed one year.”

Second: The Jurisdiction of the court is extremely limited. It can only prosecute individuals for crimes laid out in Articles 11 through 14 of the The Statute of the Iraqi Special Tribunal. To wit: crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes, manipulation of the judiciary, wastage of public resources or squandering public funds, and

“abuse of position and the pursuit of policies that may lead to the threat of war or the use of the armed forces of Iraq against an Arab country”

Further, the court only has jurisdiction over these crimes if they were

committed since July 17, 1968 and up until and including May 1, 2003

Thus your assertion that there is “no way out” of the court’s rule is simply ridiculous. The very statute that forms it provides for its end.

Not only that, but your assumption that “non-Iraqi” appointments to the court’s personal means Americans is belied by Article 6 section B which clearly sets forth that the Iraqi’s are

“entitled to request assistance from the international community, including the United Nations.”

I could go on and on, but I’ve already proven my point. I will however, point you and the other “believers” to a couple of links. First there is a great article at Radio Free Europe that discusses the American’s unhappiness with the progress of the IST, and indicates that they were considering sending it’s cases to the International Court at the Hague. This alone should convince you that the IST is not an “American puppet court” as the American’s have NO authority over the court at the Hague.

Then, there is wonderful Q&A page at Human Rights First that delves into the unique role of the IST.

Lastly, there is Wikipedia's page on the IST with lots of information, and links to more.

Enjoy,

-Cypher

IGNORANCE DENIED

Originally posted by Cypher
ArchAngel,

Did you even read the documents you posted this drivel from, or are you merely taking someone else’s interpretation of it as gospel? For if you actually read it, then one must conclude that you either willfully ignored the parts that didn’t fit into your narrow view of America as the big, bad, imperial, oppressor, or you didn’t fully comprehend it. Either way you’re wrong. Here’s why.

I read all of it, and debated it in many forums with many people.

First: Article 1 section A of the LAW OF ADMINISTRATION FOR THE STATE OF IRAQ FOR THE TRANSITIONAL PERIOD

This section clearly states that:

This Law shall be called the “Law of Administration for the State of Iraq for the Transitional Period,” and the phrase “this Law” wherever it appears in this legislation shall mean the “Law of Administration for the State of Iraq for the Transitional Period.”

This means that the “LAW OF ADMINISTRATION FOR THE STATE OF IRAQ” is only law FOR THE TRANSITIONAL PERIOD! The section you quote that confirms the establishing of the Iraqi Special Tribunal specifically states:

That statute exclusively defines its jurisdiction and procedures, notwithstanding the provisions of this Law.

Meaning that the laws set forth in the Law of Administration take precedent over anything laid out in the IST’s founding statute.

No.

Meaning that the TAL is only effective until an elected government is formed, not the Special Court.

Its still there, and they are talking as if they will still be there after the constition is ratified.

Notwithstanding PROVISIONS OF THIS LAW.

Meaning other law has no authority.

The provisions in this law only enforce their power:

Article 48.
(B) No other court shall have jurisdiction to examine cases within the competence of the Iraqi Special Tribunal, except to the extent provided by its founding statute.

(C) The judges of the Iraqi Special Tribunal shall be appointed in accordance with the provisions of its founding statute.

Article 51.

No member of the Iraqi Special Tribunal or of any commission established by the federal government may be employed in any other capacity in or out of government. This prohibition is valid without limitation, whether it be within the executive, legislative, or judicial authority of the Iraqi Transitional Government. Members of the Special Tribunal may, however, suspend their employment in other agencies while they serve on the aforementioned Tribunal.

So, what then is the “transitional period” exactly you ask? Well, in Article 2 section B, it just as clearly states that:

The term “transitional period” shall refer to the period beginning on 30 June 2004 and lasting until the formation of an elected Iraqi government pursuant to a permanent constitution as set forth in this Law, which in any case shall be no later than 31 December 2005, unless the provisions of Article 61 are applied.

And Article 61 further sets forth that the transitional period can only be extended

“with the agreement of a majority of the members’ votes” and that “the final deadlines for preparing a new draft [of the constitution] may be changed to make it possible to draft a permanent constitution within a period not to exceed one year.”

I fully understand what the transitional period is.

Their is no mention of the court expiring in its founding documents, transitional period or not.

Second: The Jurisdiction of the court is extremely limited. It can only prosecute individuals for crimes laid out in Articles 11 through 14 of the The Statute of the Iraqi Special Tribunal. To wit: crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes, manipulation of the judiciary, wastage of public resources or squandering public funds, and

“abuse of position and the pursuit of policies that may lead to the threat of war or the use of the armed forces of Iraq against an Arab country”

Further, the court only has jurisdiction over these crimes if they were

committed since July 17, 1968 and up until and including May 1, 2003

Thus your assertion that there is “no way out” of the court’s rule is simply ridiculous. The very statute that forms it provides for its end.

They only have to accuse someone, and as you pointed out squandering public funds is within their juristdiction, and the investigative judges can gather information form any source they wish so they can accept forged documents from the Coalition members.

All adult Iraqis, and most children are within their power.

Not only that, but your assumption that “non-Iraqi” appointments to the court’s personal means Americans is belied by Article 6 section B which clearly sets forth that the Iraqi’s are

“entitled to request assistance from the international community, including the United Nations.”

I fail to see how that disproves anything.

The provision to allow foreign judges would not have been included if it was not their intent use it.

Maybe none were Americans, but were from other nations.

They are still illegitimate, and do not represent the Iraqis.

I could go on and on, but I’ve already proven my point. I will however, point you and the other “believers” to a couple of links. First there is a great article at Radio Free Europe that discusses the American’s unhappiness with the progress of the IST, and indicates that they were considering sending it’s cases to the International Court at the Hague. This alone should convince you that the IST is not an “American puppet court” as the American’s have NO authority over the court at the Hague.

You proved nothing, and all the radio program showed was that commentators were talking.

America has not agreed to join the ICC, and neither has Iraq,

They will not be doing anything to support it.

Then, there is wonderful Q&A page at Human Rights First that delves into the unique role of the IST.

Lastly, there is Wikipedia's page on the IST with lots of information, and links to more.

Enjoy,

-Cypher

IGNORANCE DENIED

I have read all there is to be found, and little is said about the odd parts.

The few that recognize the danger of an independent entity within a democratic government are not being paid by the mass media.....

[edit on 21-9-2005 by ArchAngel]

www.iraqcoalition.org...

The source of your confusion is that you think the TAL created the court when all it did was CONFIRM the statute which was created by Paul Bremers' promulgation.

[edit on 21-9-2005 by ArchAngel]

[edit on 21-9-2005 by ArchAngel]

Cypher:

Have you withdrawn from the debate, or would you care to counter?

Quote:
[Many Different People]

The court would have power to have ARRESTED elected officials , If they are suspected of commiting war crimes, The court has no authority to inact or veto executive policy, nor the power to create legislation........so how does this court undermine democracy?

THE STATUTE OF THE IRAQI SPECIAL TRIBUNAL
SECTION THREE
Jurisdiction and Crimes
PART FIVE
Violations of Stipulated Iraqi Laws
Article 14.

The Tribunal shall have the power to prosecute persons who have committed the following crimes under Iraqi law:

a) For those outside the judiciary, the attempt to manipulate the judiciary or involvement in the functions of the judiciary, in violation, inter alia, of the Iraqi interim constitution of 1970, as amended;

b) The wastage of national resources and the squandering of public assets and funds, pursuant to, inter alia, Article 2(g) of Law Number 7 of 1958, as amended; and

c) The abuse of position and the pursuit of policies that may lead to the threat of war or the use of the armed forces of Iraq against an Arab country, in accordance with Article 1 of Law Number 7 of 1958, as amended.

"Oh my! "

"Look at this document we just found while searching for the missing money. "

"It´s the same kind of paper they used for the yellow cake letter. "

"Someone dropped a penney. "

"Look whos name is on it. "

"He doesn´t even deseve to think anymore. "

THE STATUTE OF THE IRAQI SPECIAL TRIBUNAL
SECTION ONE
The Establishment, Organization and Competence of the Tribunal
PART SIX
Tribunal Investigative Judges
Article 7.

h) In accordance with Iraqi criminal procedure, each Tribunal Investigative Judge shall have the power to issue subpoenas, arrest warrants and indictments with respect to individuals that they are investigating.

"ARREST THAT MAN! "

"But I didn´t do ANYTHING! "

No one bites the hidden hand

THE STATUTE OF THE IRAQI SPECIAL TRIBUNAL
PART FIVE
Violations of Stipulated Iraqi Laws
SECTION FOUR
Individual Criminal Responsibility
Article 15.

1. Commits such a crime, whether as an individual, jointly with another or through another person, regardless of whether that other person is criminally responsible;

"Who said YOU had to? "
_________________________________________

They had a much better deal under Saddam.

www.strike-free.org...

CONSTITUTION OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF IRAQ
July 16, 1970
PART I - ESTABLISHING THE FEDERAL STATE
Article 3:

Power is inherent in the people as they are the source of its legitimacy.

There is no such line in the new constitution.

LAW OF ADMINISTRATION FOR THE STATE OF IRAQ
FOR THE TRANSITIONAL PERIOD

The people of Iraq, striving to reclaim their freedom, which was usurped by the previous tyrannical regime, rejecting violence and coercion in all their forms, and particularly when used as instruments of governance, have determined that they shall hereafter remain a free people governed under the rule of law.

When the constitution is ratified the people will agree to be subject to imposed law, instead of being the source of its legitimacy.

I AM A SLAVE BUT I AM FREE!

You cannot stop people from thinking altogether, and you cannot stop them from thinking what you do not want them to think.

You can stop people from coercing others into thinking what you do not want them to think.

Then you control everything they think!

www.cpa-iraq.org...
LAW OF ADMINISTRATION FOR THE STATE OF IRAQ
FOR THE TRANSITIONAL PERIOD
Article 12.

All Iraqis are equal in their rights without regard to gender, sect, opinion, belief, nationality, religion, or origin, and they are equal before the law. Discrimination against an Iraqi citizen on the basis of his gender, nationality, religion, or origin is prohibited. Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the security of his person. No one may be deprived of his life or liberty, except in accordance with legal procedures. All are equal before the courts.

Consider what the law will be when freedoms are taken away from the Iraqi leaders.

Article 13.
(f) Each Iraqi has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religious belief and practice. Coercion in such matters shall be prohibited.

The exception allows even freedom of thought, and religion to be taken away from all people through legislation, or from individual people through the Rogue court, including elected officials.

Then all you need to do is control the media, which they already do by law.

"Aggression is illegitimate and what is built on illegitimacy is illegitimate,"

Saddam

“The judges were appointed illegally by [Paul] Bremer,” he said in reference to the former US administrator, who ruled Iraq from the end of last year’s war until Monday when he transferred sovereignty to an Iraqi interim government.

“They were supposed to get, at the very least, the approval of the Iraqi people,” he said, reiterating that Iraq’s government is illegitimate since it was not elected by the people.


I am far from the only one that has come to this conclusion.