Social Security,Medicare,Medicaid WHO is telling the truth? and who is lying? and Budget cuts!!

After reading of few threads on here last nite and taking a step back and pondering these issues facing this country.

Social Security,Medicaid, and Medicare have all been claimed to solvent for as many as 3 decades so i asked myself if they all have money for 30 years or more why have their budgets been doubled? and why will the left not budge and any cuts to them.

This country has a national crisis of epic proportions we are currently at a $14 trillion deficit and its projected to become over $21 trillion within the next ten years not to mention the untold addition to the national deficit of what obama care will add to it.

the purpose of this thread is to say this one thing and to make others question what both sides say......

social security and medicaid and medicare all have cash for decades to come IF THIS IS INDEED THE TRUTH for which only one side is saying then cuts to the "entitlement programs" are just.

if this indeed the great lie then that explains why the left will not yield one dollar and seeks to increase the spending at every turn.


who is lying and who is telling the truth and no matter how much people want to have it both ways there is only one way.

Cut our imperialistic military. Like the basses in Korea, Germany, Spain, and the list continues. Cut the secret killing machines that our American tax dollars are paying for. Pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Bring the military industrial complex to it's knees. Best solution for our debt.

reply to post by XxRagingxPandaxX


i have seen alot of comments like that made on here and not one of them even recognize the reasons we are out there.
globalization
outsourcing
oil

until those end we will aways be out there without that evil military out there there is no economic prosperity here at home when americans stop wanting to buy cheap stuff.

that evil military again is what generating all that income for all those programs and the reason you can work.

look at the bigger picture and look at what you want effects the us as a whole.

reply to post by neo96


The proposed slashing of SS, Medicare and Medicaid will doom the GOP in the coming elections.

www.thepeoplesvoice.org...

Old people are strapped financially already. Do you think they are going to support candidates that want to hurt them even more. I don't!

AARP is one of the strongest voting blocks in America and if they turn on the GOP...it's over, the libs win again.

Here is the obvious place for budget cuts.

costofwar.com...

reply to post by whaaa



all i know if the status quo doesnt change we're all doomed.

and then the right and left don't matter

did you miss the earlier post on where all that money for entitlements comes from?

Originally posted by neo96


did you miss the earlier post on where all that money for entitlements comes from?

The money for entitlements comes from the same place that pays for this.

costofwar.com...

It really boils down to a persons priorities doesn't it ?? Killing people or helping them....

If helping people labels me a liberal; then I wear that label with pride.

reply to post by whaaa


you are missing the bigger picture man the globalization of business and industry and the relative peace and security of the us mainland promotes the environment that all that cash can be made.

and the entire worlds economy is based on that thing people just love to hate oil

no oil there is nothing here all of the us imports that flow into the us is safe guarded by those evil military people.


please man look at the larger picture and see how all the pieces fit together.

no military there is nothing else when we can make and buy and produce our own goods and services then you can cut defense but that day will never come.


jobs have lifted more people out of poverty than any welfare check ever has if the problems of globalization and outsourcing are addressed the rest fixes itself.

more people working means less people on subsidies but that would mean more cash flow to finance those subsidies.

the liberal philosphy of helping people is just keeping them enslaved at the whims of the party politic

reply to post by neo96


I am looking at the bigger picture. The way I see it is that if we ignore the elderly, the weak and disabled in favor of waging war for natural resources then we have lost our soul; Both nationally and spiritually. Then there is nothing worth saving because we have become selfish and evil as a nation, both culturally and morally bankrupt. We are very close to that situation as it is, bending to the will of the corporate oligarchy with their lust for blood and disregard of the nation and it's well being in quest of profit.

reply to post by neo96


Oil is a product, just like wheat, oranges, textiles, etc.

Countries with oil still need to trade that product for other products, as people can't eat or wear oil. Oil will always be traded for other goods, and oil will, for the foreseeable future, always be needed to produce other products.

The current problem is that oil, being so cheap, makes it worthwhile for countries to outsource production and manufacturing.

Example: The U.S. used to be the number one producer of steel.
Technology and low transportation costs (oil) made it more profitable to produce steel in China, at lower wages, and then transport the steel back to the U.S.
Same with autos and many other products.

If the transportation costs for steel or auto manufacturers were to rise enough, these manufacturing jobs would be re-relocated back to the U.S. as it wouldn't be cost efficient to produce then transport these products such long distances.

The whole reason our military is spread around the world, nowhere near the citizens of the U.S., is to protect companies' ability to exploit cheap labor, and to ensure low transportation(oil) costs back to the consumers of the U.S.

The honey trap - now 56% of the public works for the government. They get people dependent and then keep them there slowing whittling away at their services (and freedoms since taking away services leads to rebellion). They do it slow and most people will never understand what is lost as they'll have never experienced the freedom of not being dependent.

The money doesn't exist (hence why we have a deficit and debt). We can carry debt because we are the world reserve currency and other reasons. They are working their damndest to remove those as factors to cause our debt to turn in to an economic holocaust.

reply to post by whaaa


creating and promoting dependency is losing our soul and its morally bankrupt.

the selfishness is thinking you know whats best for someone else and never living the lifestyle you just think is so morally right to do the non stop quest that destroys other people to justify your moral code

half this country supports the other half how is that morally acceptable


being lectured about morality and ethics when the left supports abortion is rich i swear.

Originally posted by neo96
jobs have lifted more people out of poverty than any welfare check ever has if the problems of globalization and outsourcing are addressed the rest fixes itself.

Agree. Globalization has actually been very good for the American economy, but the wealth generated has not trickled down or allowed to benefit citizens in non-monetary ways. As long as corporations and the top wealthy benefited, "Let them shop at WalMart!" became status quo. Why would corporations or the govt they buy want to propose any national economic plan or plan to stimulate innovation, if the status quo is acceptable?

Well, actually, if all the $ spent in Iraq especially and Afghanistan all those years had instead been invested in energy innovation alone, we'ld be a completely different country today. The rat holes we shoved all that $ into did us no good, except to dig us deeper into debt, which, hell no, corporations and the wealth holders have no intention of helping to pay off!.

Anyway, this interesting read on globalization deals with a few specifics, even one on drugs. A read.

Originally posted by whaaa
I am looking at the bigger picture. The way I see it is that if we ignore the elderly, the weak and disabled in favor of waging war for natural resources then we have lost our soul; Both nationally and spiritually. Then there is nothing worth saving because we have become selfish and evil as a nation, both culturally and morally bankrupt. We are very close to that situation as it is, bending to the will of the corporate oligarchy with their lust for blood and disregard of the nation and it's well being in quest of profit.

Yes. And the corporate oligarchy lusts for more $ ("Feed me!"), so they would be quite happy to have Ryan's Medicare voucher handed over to them. More taxpayer dollars for a private corporation! More tax dollars to pay for profits! I posted this in another thread, but find it appropriate for here, as it deals with Medicare. A recent unpaid Medicare giveaway.

A read here on public versus private overhead in health care. Medicare

Originally posted by Oaktree
The whole reason our military is spread around the world, nowhere near the citizens of the U.S., is to protect companies' ability to exploit cheap labor, and to ensure low transportation(oil) costs back to the consumers of the U.S.

Liked your post. Highlighted this part. And of course these $ are not "figured in" to the price at the pump or checkout.

.....continuing on.....
re Social Security....SS is an actuarial fund, paid out til death. Many young people seem to want to be talked into doing away with this fund and having them or Mom&Dad save for their own retirement, and that way survivors get to keep what's left after the death of the account holder.

Wow, sounds good. Problem is, there more than likely will never be enough money able to be saved by Mom&Dad, so guess what young people, no sooner do you move out of M&D's house, then a few years later either M or D or both will move in with you when their retirement savings run out. You'll not only have to support them, but you'll probably run short yourself when you retire. Nothing to pass on, nothing to live on when the savings account is closed due to lack of funds.

Everyone here has missed the real economic problem.

The problem is not outsourcing. While we may lose some jobs to the poor bastards in China - we also pay much less for those goods when sold to us. We then have people who can be hired on to do other things - or even venture their own business ideas. We were prosperous when we were driving the industrial revolution and the technological revolution. When we were making new things that required skilled workers and tight quality controls.

Free up business in the U.S. and the outsourcing problem will evaporate, and Americans will be glad to move on to jobs more fitting of a first-world nation.

The problem is consumer habits. Somewhere between the 40s and 70s, taking out lines of credit not only became seen as acceptable - but as a sort of standard. People started looking at their paychecks and seeing money left over at the end of the month as a loan they could afford.

That is why the average American has an average total debt of nearly 3 times their annual income. Since about half of a person's income goes to general provisions (food, transportation, service subscriptions - phone, internet - both can be considered nearly essential in today's world) - it can easily be said that the current economy is 'spent' six years ahead of itself.

We've become a debt-driven economy.

This is why we see a centralization of wealth, because the average person doesn't -have- any wealth, as they are living a loaned life.

The centralization of wealth will never be corrected by higher taxes on the wealthy (most of their growth is through capital gains, capital that is backing your loans; taxing capital gains would cause people to withdraw money from accounts and lead to a repeat of the housing market burst - where banks didn't have the money to cover all of the withdraws - higher taxes on capital gains would also destroy a number of retirement plans based around investments). Nor by the elimination of the federal reserve, decapitation of the military, etc.

The only way to correct that problem is to fix our consumer spending problems - namely, our fixation with loans.

As for federal spending - what needs to be done more than simple cuts is a restructuring. Of the whole works - from revenue to outlays.

That tax system needs to be simplified. I'm in favor of the Fair Tax proposal - but that shouldn't be the only candidate out there.

Military spending needs to be restructured. It makes no sense for commands to, literally, blow money in the last fiscal quarter to avoid having their budget cut next year (and then encounter higher operating expenses and have to pull teeth to get funding authorized).

Medicare/medicaid/medistuff spending -must- be restructured. As the baby boomers get old, they will be using these services more. There's no way around that. Restructuring to improve efficiency and protect against fraud (one of the largest sources of medical spending waste out there) would be essential. It may mean we have to exclude some procedures or make some unpopular adjustments - but we really don't need to be paying to keep people half-alive and in a fog of pain-killers, either. Seems rather selfish, to me, to keep someone in such a state knowing the ultimate outcome of age is nigh.

Income Security/Supplement spending also needs to be seriously looked at. Getting rid of tax credits would be a start. You shouldn't get tax credits for having more kids when you can't afford the ones you have. You should be approved to have medicare pay to have your tubes tied, if anything. There are entire communities out there that do nothing but sit around and wait for the welfare check to come in the mail.

And it's not fair to those who don't just need the help - but are also making an effort to improve their life. Welfare programs were never intended to give people things; they were intended to keep people from falling into the extremes of poverty. "Damn, dude, life threw you one hell of a curve-ball, but it's okay, you and your family aren't going to be dumpster-diving - just focus on getting everything straight and getting back into the work-force." - that sort of tone. Not: "The guy who can't keep a job for more than three weeks doesn't have a home? How horrible! And has to worry about where to find food? That's terrible! Everyone should have a house and food!"

Stop paying people for a free ride. They can get with the program or go to bed hungry in a blanket of snow. Use the program for what it was intended, and where it will actually do some good.

The reality is that we'd still probably be spending into a deficit even after restructuring. However, we could then begin to scale down government spending and begin establishing more rigid limitations on the powers and functions of government.

reply to post by Aim64C


good post man alot of valid points were made and none i could argue with.

i was kicking around the idea tonite if what if:

what if the us government started "outsourcing" those elements to the state to where they should have been in the first place.

social security,medicare and medicaid was a state by state case meaning any revenue taken in my each state is the states own responsibility to fund.

probably never happen just like privatization of social security will never happen.

because the political parties will never yeld that control

Poeple can pontificate about the need to cut defense, etc. all they want.

But unless something(s) is cut and soon then this argument is moot. Because we will lose everything if our country collapses.

Want to save medicare? Want to save military spending?

Just like homeowners iin America, they had ten tvs, all with their own satellite, heated their homes until it felt like a sauna, got all the best appliances, and perceverated about the mortgage.
Instead of cutting on luxuries, they waited until they lost it all.

I'm finding this an apt analogy, personally.

reply to post by beezzer


thats the thing man they will cut defense and just increase the social security and welfare.

reply to post by neo96


It is often said that people don't like change. I think that's a bit of a misnomer - look at what got this party-boy elected to the office of President. People are always upset with the way things are and looking for a way to make them better.

What people don't like is uncertainty.

Making large changes to the way government operates introduces huge elements of uncertainty. While people don't really know what the hell government programs do now - they don't like the idea of a service they rely upon changing.

In the case of the free-loaders - to hell with them, let them be scared.

However - for those who have been productive in society and have bought the whole Social Security mantra and will still have to work to make ends meet while drawing social security and being eligible for Medicare/Medicaid - it's a legitimate concern when us young people come through and start talking about changing something they kinda need - and, in all honesty, are justified in using those programs.

Any change has to be sure to not completely exclude those people. My father worked himself to death, I imagine quite literally. He tried to raise us boys for about three years after my mom died before he finally died. A month before he was to retire (and try to go into consulting).

However, at the same time - everyone has to realize that the Baby Boomers - who have driven our economy for the past 40 years or more, are getting old. They are reaching retirement age. While many of them are choosing to work in some capacity through retirement (out of necessity or to avert boredom) - it means that one of the single largest surges in U.S. population is going to stop working while drawing retirement from Social Security and other funds. They are also going to be seeing doctors more frequently and placing extra demand on our medical services.

We are probably not going to afford to be able to give them the kind of retirement they thought they were going to get, particularly in terms of social security and medicare/medicaid benefits. It's unfortunate - but I've only been of legal age for four years; it's partly their problem for not being more aware of their own government.

I believe the current system is technically administered by the states - the federal government just gives them a huge portion of their operating budgets. Although I would have to research that a little more to know for certain.

Originally posted by Aim64C
Somewhere between the 40s and 70s, taking out lines of credit not only became seen as acceptable - but as a sort of standard. People started looking at their paychecks and seeing money left over at the end of the month as a loan they could afford.

Actually, it was after 1980. Credit cards/loans became easier to obtain. As middle class incomes became relatively stagnant, families turned to borrowing to keep up the middle class lifestyle. graph

Money that used to be saved was being spent on goods and services. graph

Increasingly, goods and services became priced to where paying by cash/short term loans became unthinkable. For ex, new car prices rose to where leasing was promoted to families as an option, or to where the life of a loan was extended beyond the usual 2-3 years, to where car loans of 6 years are not uncommon, in order for a family to buy a new car. Housing, likewise, from a usual 10 year payoff to up to 50 year/interest only loans.

The American WW2 GI returned home to a 1940s-1970s economy poised to let families afford a car, house, recreation, furniture, etc. while at the same time build up savings, all within the family income budget. After 1980 household spending became an increasing part of the American economy. graph However, as was noted, new families entering the workforce increasingly had to dip into disposable income or save less to enter/remain middle class.

And consumer spending became patriotic. 9--11! "Go shopping more!" Even then I said to myself whiskey tango foxtrot in disbelief of the shallowness.

Also, increasingly, the family home was turned into an investment tool; couple that with a "have it now" attitude, and stagnant wages....and this prediction is from around 2006 graph in article personal disclaimer--I'm not advocating from this site

Originally posted by Aim64C
Restructuring to improve efficiency and protect against fraud (one of the largest sources of medical spending waste out there) would be essential. It may mean we have to exclude some procedures or make some unpopular adjustments - but we really don't need to be paying to keep people half-alive and in a fog of pain-killers, either. Seems rather selfish, to me, to keep someone in such a state knowing the ultimate outcome of age is nigh.

Agree. Which is why the cry of "Death panels!" was beyond reprehensible. Sure, SS would have kept paying for procedure after procedure to keep my sister alive (and line pocket books of providers), but that is not what she wanted, and the family had to fight for her wishes. SS end of life counseling was perverted into death panels!

reply to post by desert


Agreed, for the most part. I think the loaning trend goes back a little farther than the 80s - but I was just barely old enough to remember the early 90s. I kinda miss those days, Mom complaining about $0.85/gallon gasoline.

Also, increasingly, the family home was turned into an investment tool; couple that with a "have it now" attitude, and stagnant wages....and this prediction is from around 2006 graph in article personal disclaimer--I'm not advocating from this site

This is very true - although I've read some articles written by economists back in the 90s, and even as far back as the mid 80s warning about the trends in the housing market (and most took aim at the decade following the turn of the millennium being the time of reckoning for this).

Though it could be that Google has artificially created a consensus through their algorithms used to display relevant results, and given those predictions considered more accurate by the e-searching public a more forward standing and grouping (and all of the inaccurate proposals by people considered equally crazy are so deep in the search results that no one sees them).

I think the housing market is the greatest contributing factor to the concentration of wealth that we see. Most of the 'wealth' these "evil rich" people have is in the form of investments that typically lead straight back to the value of a house. Because housing values inflated like no one's business in some areas (granted, here in the midwest things have been okay - though the Realtors here say we tend to lag by a few years, I've noticed a lot more homes for sale recently, but we're also an elderly-intensive community, so they could be passing on and leaving vacancies) - the whole economy swelled with artificial and inflated value.

But with 20-60 year loans... all of that value was at least 20 years ahead of what was actually driving the economy (probably an overly simplistic way of looking at it - but still a valid point). That drove banks to the extremes of fractional reserve banking (even if banks wanted to loan out to the maximum allowed, you can only loan to willing consumers who have at least some kind of income to attempt to pay that back with) - and lead to the problems we have right now.

reply to post by neo96


yes, and the first thing that they always want to cut is the support for the elderly, social security......
the ones that spent half their lives working their arse off to raise the taxpayers!!!

the money that goes to paying the seniors DOES NOT come from the same fund that is paying to take care of all those kids that many of you guys are always complaining about having to support!! the money that goes through social security was paid in by the workforce, invested into treasury bonds, and well, it's time to cash some of those bonds in, just like you may have some of those treasury bonds in your IRA, and well, when you want to retire, I am sure, you plan on cashing some of them in!!! Just like china, india, japan, plan on cashing them in....

but, well, what can I say, the same people who are lecturing the peons about how they should be honoring their debt and paying their mortgage, even after it's found that there was a ton a fraud involved in the mess and that fraud could very possibly have devalued their home to next to nothing, well, they want to ignore the debt that is owed to their parents...

but, oh, ya!!! let go borrow another few billion....
columbia needs an oil refinery!!!!

it doesn't take a genius to know where all the dollars have been flowing to the past few decades or so, there is only one group that has benefitted by the way things have been running, wasn't the seniors, wasn't the poor, wasn't the small business owner, wasn't middle class....
and that other group, well, they are quick to send their cash overseas, to nice safe havens and protect it from uncle sam's tax collectors and hire top notch accountants to find every danged tax break and loophole to get their tax bill to as close to 0 as possible...
well, this is what happens when a high percentage of the wealth sits outside of the tax pool!!!

we now have more people getting the handouts than we have contributing to the tax pool!!!

so let's focus our attention on the seniors and their social security!!!


but.......but......but.....I DON'T WANT OT PAY MY CHILD SUPPORT!! SHE LIED TO ME!! SHE WAS CRAZY!! NUTS EVEN!!! IT'S UNFAIR!!!