Why I believe Creation is factually accurate – The Reality!

Why Biblical Creation is factually accurate – The Reality! The evidences are indisputable!

First let me please say a short note:

_I don't know about you or your particular sets of belief but to me it is truly awe inspiring, the more I look into it the more I'm convinced of how *Biblical Creation fits the facts of life and the reason why it came to. It's the most amazing thing that happens when one opens his mind to the reality of Biblical Creation. It clears up many of the unknowns. Amazing thing also is that it doesn't even require an advance knowledge of mathematics, physics and science to be able to see the the overwhelming evidence of Creation (although it's good to have one). But with an eye of honest curiosity, awe and humility one can clearly see the Creator's fingerprints all over it. There’s no doubt about it, that life and the Universe are of Divine Origin - as the following evidence will prove. Thus I’m fully convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that life, nature and the universe are products of an intelligent all powerful and loving Creator. This conclusion is not based on conjecture, emotional revelation, credulity or blind faith as some might accused me of but based on honest study and researched of factual evidence – biblical, historical and scientific evidence.

It's also not just me but many experts in various scientific fields see and perceive intelligent design** in nature. Like me they also find it highly illogical to think that the intricate complexity of life on earth and the universe for that matter came about by chance , accident or by an unguided process. Hence, a number of scientists and researchers believe in a Creator.

And it is on these basis that I stand by the FACT that the Bible although penned by men, is Divinely Inspired. As such it agrees with true (verifiable) scientific facts, undeniable, indisputable facts - which confirms *Creation. In addition, it's the ONLY BOOK in existence that explains why we are here and why Creation is factually accurate and contains a reliable satisfactory explanation to the meaning of life. To quote the Scriptures:

“. . .All Scripture is inspired of God . . .” “For with you is the source of life” (2 Timothy 3:16, Psalm 36:9)

Allow me please to present just a few examples (eight facts for now - out of hundreds - just to keep the OP short as possible – I'll post them in sets so that you can take your pick – as it is already extensive).

Let me begin with this simple yet impressive Biblical statement:

Fact 1) “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”—Gen. 1:1. - #

What a way to describe Creation! Amazingly simple yet accurately elegant and factually scientific!

Think about the implications of this Genesis statement. If it can be proven that the Universe “the heavens” and the earth had a beginning then it sets the stage and establishes the foundation of WHY the Bible is factually accurate when it comes to scientific facts. It also confirms of its divine origin and that Life is a product of Creation.

So w/o further adieu, what does the evidence show?

Did the universe (heavens) had a beginning according to Genesis 1:1?

Consider:

"Evidence of a beginning"

The book “God and the Astronomers,” page 14, said:

“Now we see how the astronomical evidence leads to a biblical view of the origin of the world.”

The Hubble Telescope and other powerful instruments, higher mathematics and the brightest minds of science has confirmed this to be so: the universe had a beginning – ergo: The Big Bang.

Consider a few more:

Professor of astronomy David L. Block wrote:

“That the universe has not always existed—that it had a beginning—has not always been popular.”

Now:

“Virtually all astrophysicists today conclude, that “the universe began with a big bang that propelled matter outward in all directions.” – reported U.S.News & World Report in 1997

“You can call it the big bang, but you can also call it with accuracy the moment of creation.” – Robert Jastrow

Penzias, who shared in the discovery of background radiation in the universe, observed:

“Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing.”

“What we have found is evidence for the birth of the universe.” – COBE team leader George Smoot

www.youtube.com...=619s

Division of Energy Between Photons and Massive Particles

One of the ideas associated with modeling the Big Bang is that the further back in time you project, the more the universe is dominated by photons. We think of today's universe as mostly matter, but the energy of the early universe was mostly photon energy with massive particles playing a very small role.
The amount of energy in radiation in today's universe can be estimated with the use of the Stefan- Boltzmann law, considering that the universe is filled with blackbody radiation at a temperature of 2.7 K.

hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...

www.youtube.com...

--------------------A conceptual illustration of the Big Bang Event:---------------
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0bc26b654706.jpg[/atsimg]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can provide more but I think the above evidence should be more than enough.

What can we conclude from these evidence?

Just as the Bible has stated: The Universe had a BEGINNING!

On this there's NO Doubt and no more debate!! Something that we can ALL agree on – unless atheist, evolutionists and non-believers want's to challenged it.

What about the earth? Did it had a beginning? This one too is a ESTABLISHED FACT and no need of further evidence or explanation (unless you're not yet convinced).

To those who scoff at the Bible's accuracy, what say you? Can you disproved the scientific accuracy of Genesis 1:1? Evidence of Beginning!

Now please consider these very important questions:

Since the Genesis account was written some 3500 years ago (according to Biblical chronology and factual events surrounding its writing), here's the question that I want you to answer:

How did Moses, a “goat herder” (as referred to here on ATS) get the facts right? How did he knew that the universe (heavens) and the earth had a beginning whereas these amazing scientific facts were known just recently (1900s)? How could a man 3500 years ago be able say, write what science just recently discovered? Think also of the amount of time, money, knowledge and technology to conclusively show that the universe had a beginning. Yet a “goat herder” knew the facts! How was it possible?

Wild guess, coincidence, luck, hallucination or did he copied it from other writings as some claim?

What say you? All or any of the above? In any case whatever your answer is, one thing is clear, Moses got it right! Do you agree?

But whether you agree or not, to me the obvious, clear and logical answer is:

He got the information from someone who has knowledge of space and time. From someone who transcends the material universe because he made it and hence existed before it was. From someone who posses enormous power, with the ability to convert “dynamic energy” into matter (E=mc2 - Isa 40:26 NWT)). In other words Moses was divinely inspired by God the Creator of the heavens and earth - the Almighty God (YHWH - Jehovah/Yahweh). To which he says:

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”—Gen. 1:1.

Do the facts show this to be so? There's no doubt about it!

So what say you ATS?

#Note: The Bible itself does not set any such time limit on the days of creation. Based on known scientific, mathematical, astronomical facts the earth is around 4byo and the universe around 13byo (for now – might change). Gen. 1:1 does not disagree with the established facts. But the 6000 to 10000 year old earth does not fit these well known facts – geologic strata.

Next evidence:

Fact 2) In the eighth century B.C.E. Isaiah wrote of Jehovah “...the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell,” (Isaiah 40:22 NWT/ also DBY)

Is there any scientific proof to this statement? What does the evidence show?

----Consider just two of the amazing images captured by modern instruments:-----

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/084610c9e1fc.jpg[/atsimg]

www.youtube.com...=26

---------------------Image of the universe containing dark matter-------------------------
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/18aa6057e918.jpg[/atsimg]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notice the use of the phrase “fine gauze,” rather than the coarser tent cloth. This expression describes accurately the delicate construction of such "heavenly canopy". A fact confirmed by modern astronomy (as mentioned) through the use of modern imaging instruments.

So how did the prophet Isaiah knew this to be so and where did he get this space age information? A lucky guess, coincidence or Divine inspiration? The latter is the most logical and obvious answer.

Do the facts show this to be so? There's no doubt about it!

What say you ATS?

Next evidence:


Fact 3) “He is . . . hanging the earth upon nothing.”—Job 26:7.

Misconceptions:

The Egyptians believed that the earth was supported by pillars; the Greeks said by Atlas; others said by an elephant standing on a turtle that swam in a cosmic sea.

The Evidence:

The book of Job, although written in the 15th century B.C.E., is scientifically correct and factually accurate.

Again through the use of powerful instruments, higher mathematics and the brightest minds of science, confirmed its correctness, accuracy and authenticity. That the earth is being held by an invisible force, ergo: Gravitational forces and laws of motion!

The earth hanging “upon nothing” (by gravitational force) governed by the “statutes of the heavens”.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fd99e4548e3d.jpg[/atsimg]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a thought that baffled many in the early ages, a nineteenth century Bible scholar said:

“It presents a singularly strong protest against superstitions prevalent among all heathens . . . Job knows nothing of solid foundations on which the broad expanse of earth is supported. How Job knew the truth, demonstrated by astronomy, that the earth hangs self-poised in empty space, is a question not easily solved by those who deny the inspiration of Holy Scripture.” – F. C. Cook

So the question again is:

Where did Job got the information more than 3400 years ago? How could he possibly know that the earth is “hanging upon nothing”? How was he able to positively point out such an accurate scientific statement without the aid of advance knowledge of modern astronomy/cosmology?

Wild guess, coincidence, luck or did he copied it from other writings as some may say?

What say you? All or any of the above? In any case, whatever your answer is, one thing is sure Job and Moses (writer of Job) got it right! Do you agree? If so what about the rest of Job's statements? What about Moses' other writings – the Pentateuch?

But whether you honestly agree or not, to me the obvious, clear and logical answer is:

Job got the information from someone who has knowledge of space and time. From someone who knew where the material universe came from. From someone who posses enormous power, with the ability to convert “dynamic energy” into matter (E=mc2 - Isa 40:26 NWT)). In other words Moses was divinely inspired by the Creator of the heavens and earth himself - the Almighty God (YHWH - Jehovah/Yahweh). To which he says:
“He is . . . hanging the earth upon nothing.”—Job 26:7.

Do the facts show this to be so? There's no doubt about it!

With just these three undeniable facts the evidence is strong in support of Creation!

In conclusion – as we increase our knowledge of the universe, the more WE WILL LEARN about its Grand Creator - Jehovah God. And the more we advance our knowledge of space and time the more we will come to understand in all honesty that in reality we are just catching up on what the Bible already stated millenniums of years ago that life, nature and the universe are products of Creation!

I hope that the evidence presented leaves you with no doubt about it.

“For with you is the source of life” (Psalm 36:9)

So what say you?

Thx,
edmc2

P.S.:
All evidence presented were gathered from readily available sources. Also in order to not violate the posting rules I elected not to quote or post the entire source materials. So please spare me your accusations. The main point of this thread is to prove that Creation is factually, scientifically accurate and the reality. That, I believed I accomplished. But if you're no able to satisfactorily refute the evidence but just want to rant or tell me that I'm ignoramus, may I suggest to kindly PLEASE refrain from childish personal attacks and from bullying (i.e. ozweatherman, et al). Address the message (evidence/questions) not the messenger (if possible) else you might reveal yourself as one who can't reason against facts and logic (ozw, et al) and also might attract the MOD's attentions.

Note:
**Supplemental Information:

The Creation presented has nothing to do with what is commonly known as “Scientific Creationism” or “Creation Science”.

Where it is states:
a) That creation took place only a few thousand years ago.
b) That all geologic strata were formed by the Biblical Deluge.

Note:
These doctrines were formulated by the members of a few churches, notably the Seventh-Day Adventists, who form the core of the group that sponsored the (Arkansas) law.

en.wikipedia.org...

Or is in anyway associated/related with the often used counter argument to evolution theory – commonly known as ID – “Intelligent Design”. Where it states that:

"certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[1][2] It is neo-creationism, a form of creationism restated in non-religious terms.[3] It is also a contemporary adaptation of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, but one which deliberately avoids specifying the nature or identity of the intelligent designer.[4] Its leading proponents—all of whom are associated with the Discovery Institute, a politically conservative think tank[n 1][5]—believe the designer to be the God of Christianity.[n 2][n 3]

en.wikipedia.org...

emphasis on “one which deliberately avoids specifying the nature or identity of the intelligent designer.”
Which is contrary to Biblical Creation – where The Creator whose name YHWH (Jehovah/Yahweh) was mentioned 7000 times.

Bible Books:
Genesis
Writer: Moses
Place Written: Wilderness
Writing Completed: 1513 B.C.E.
Time Covered: “In the beginning” to 1657 B.C.E.
(3524 yoa)

Job
Writer: Moses
Place Written: Wilderness
Writing Completed: c. 1473 B.C.E.
Time Covered: Over 140 years between 1657 and 1473 B.C.E.
(3484 yoa)

Isaiah
Writer: Isaiah
Place Written: Jerusalem
Writing Completed: After 732 B.C.E.
Time Covered: c. 778–after 732 B.C.E.
(2743)

---end transmission –

Next sets of evidence (I'll post later)

....

....."God" is an alien...need i say more??

It makes the most sense...

and you do realize the Illuminati created some of the bible right?

You left out the book of Thomas and the Dead Sea's Scrolls...

Maybe you should look into those...

There is a lot of scientifically valid information in the Quran too. ("Oh no he dinnent!") Are you willing to accept that? Does that not mean that it is a valid sacred text as well? See, the thing that bothers me are the people that take the truths that are in the Bible and say that because those truths are there that the Bible is the ONLY valid sacred text. Nope. One of many.

100% with your opinion, I would like to add this link, it is in french (do a translation) but it explained also from the indians and ancestors all different world we lived in before. It is worth a reading also.
www.antonparks.com...

www.faithalive365.com...




news.xinhuanet.com...


1THE HEAVENS declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows and proclaims His handiwork.

2Day after day pours forth speech, and night after night shows forth knowledge.

3There is no speech nor spoken word [from the stars]; their voice is not heard.

4Yet their voice [in evidence] goes out through all the earth, their sayings to the end of the world. Of the heavens has God made a tent for the sun Psalm 19:1-4

reply to post by edmc^2


I agree the points you outline are evidence that the Bible is inspired by God. Quite strong evidence. But there are instances where the Bible seems to be inspired by something dumber, such as when Abraham is instructed to kill his first born son on the altar. If that were to happen today to you... to say you were instructed to sacrifice you're first born son on the altar who would believe you that God is willing you to do that? Unlike some people I wouldn't argue that God must be like a teddy bear at all. In fact if you think about it, God more or less kills each and every one of us when we age enough to the point.

So when people talk about why amputees are not cured by God as evidence God does not exist its actually funny, because roughly half the people on Earth have been *killed off* by God... and yet they are focusing on the fact that some people don't have an arm. Gee, Bob the skeptic is talking about how his cousin doesn't have an arm. Well #$% my grandparents are all dead and their arms are in 5,000 pieces but the hell if Bob is ever going to mention that! When you compare that to the people buried in cemeteries the amputees are in damned great shape. Not to mention that stem cell research seems to be well on the way to actually curing amputees completely if my memory is not mistaken... making them wrong about that... but of course rather than admitting they are idiots they'll simply switch off to another idea. You'll notice that most people, when shown how they are wrong, just ignore that inconvenient fact and look for something else to support their ideas. I could go on about why the amputee argument is ridiculous but that isn't really the topic.

I do faintly remember the gauze verse, and that comes of as a particularly bizarre thing to say, and its really quite amazing how accurate it turns out to be. Clearly that idea may have been inspired by God. Of course the gauze statement could also be interpreted as evidence that space aliens came down at one time and one of them mentioned the structure of the universe to mankind. Or, it could be interpreted simply that human beings have very powerful intuitions... perhaps someone was looking into the heavens and to them it was gauze.

The Bible isn't the only thing inspired by God. Sometimes God inspires us to help our neighbor. Sometimes God inspires us to write a poem. And like the Bible, the poem may actually be a kind of goofy and error riddled piece of work... but contain ideas that are beautiful and lasting. I don't believe it can be said that the Bible is extra-specially inspired more so than many poems that have been written. For example I'm very impressed by the Mayan prediction that one day a "giant spider web would cover the Earth". Obviously that is more or less true given the internet. We have what is known as the "World Wide Web" now! Its a web and its worldwide. And its changing the planet in amazing ways. That seems like a God-inspired prophecy to me.

Ah, yes. Another God promotion from the indefatigable edmc^2, who will babble and ramble, distort logic and commonsense to the point of unrecognizability, and contemptuously ignore questions and criticisms in order to peddle his favourite line of tosh.

Guess what? I’m not playing this time.

And frankly, my sensible friends, neither should you. I say we stop feeding this creationist’s habit.

Originally posted by Astyanax
Ah, yes. Another God promotion from the indefatigable edmc^2, who will babble and ramble, distort logic and commonsense to the point of unrecognizability, and contemptuously ignore questions and criticisms in order to peddle his favourite line of tosh.

Guess what? I’m not playing this time.

And frankly, my sensible friends, neither should you. I say we stop feeding this creationist’s habit.

Astyanax - I hope I did not stumped you, but this is thread is a very simple response to all the ridicules launched by people who scoff at the Bible and Creation. It is also to show that Creation is The Reality - not a GAME.

But if you have no counter response to my questions, I understand because the evidence presented are facts, not as you say "babble and ramble, distort logic and commonsense to the point of unrecognizability". They are very simple truth.


Anyway- thanks for chiming in.

thx,
edmc2

lol creation is common sense. religions were created by extremists to control a select of the population. god and creation, are one entity that work as 2. simple

reply to post by civilchallenger


Thanks civilchallenger for your input. It is indeed quite strong the evidence for Creation but of course if one have not gotten a chance to do an depth study of the Scriptures some things seems to be contradictory. But I can assure you these seemingly contradictory events are not contradictions if they are read within the context.

Anyway I would like to get your input on the rest of the evidence also if u don't mind.

thx,
edmc2

Originally posted by coyotepoet
There is a lot of scientifically valid information in the Quran too. ("Oh no he dinnent!") Are you willing to accept that? Does that not mean that it is a valid sacred text as well? See, the thing that bothers me are the people that take the truths that are in the Bible and say that because those truths are there that the Bible is the ONLY valid sacred text. Nope. One of many.

May I ask you coyotepoet these questions - when was the Quran written? Or for that matter is there any other book in existence containing such factually accurate information? A book inspired by the Creator of the "heavens and the earth"?

thx,
edmc2

Originally posted by edmc^2
Why Biblical Creation is factually accurate – The Reality! The evidences are indisputable!

If they were indisputable, this would be a very short thread.

First let me please say a short note:

_I don't know about you or your particular sets of belief but to me it is truly awe inspiring, the more I look into it the more I'm convinced of how *Biblical Creation fits the facts of life and the reason why it came to. It's the most amazing thing that happens when one opens his mind to the reality of Biblical Creation. It clears up many of the unknowns.

I would argue that religious dogma doesn’t clear up anything relating to science, it does the opposite because it presupposes its conclusion.

Amazing thing also is that it doesn't even require an advance knowledge of mathematics, physics and science to be able to see the the overwhelming evidence of Creation (although it's good to have one).

You definitely don't want people to have an advanced (or even basic) understanding of mathematics, physics, chemistry, or biology because it would easily lay the groundwork for refutation of creationism. As level of education increases, adherence to creationism tends to decrease. I’m sure you’ll counter that it’s nothing but indoctrination by atheists with an agenda, but that would fail to explain people that are theists and refute creationism due to it's complete lack of evidence, like Kenneth Miller.

But with an eye of honest curiosity, awe and humility one can clearly see the Creator's fingerprints all over it. There’s no doubt about it, that life and the Universe are of Divine Origin - as the following evidence will prove. Thus I’m fully convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that life, nature and the universe are products of an intelligent all powerful and loving Creator. This conclusion is not based on conjecture, emotional revelation, credulity or blind faith as some might accused me of but based on honest study and researched of factual evidence – biblical, historical and scientific evidence.

I question your claim of honest curiosity - you didn't ask yourself how the universe was created and then eventually reach the answer that it was God. Awe and humility? I can be in awe of the universe without resorting to belief in creationism. I can also be humble in my view of the universe without resorting to belief in creationism.

It's also not just me but many experts in various scientific fields see and perceive intelligent design** in nature. Like me they also find it highly illogical to think that the intricate complexity of life on earth and the universe for that matter came about by chance , accident or by an unguided process. Hence, a number of scientists and researchers believe in a Creator.

Many experts in various fields? Do you have some evidence of this other than the old Discovery Institute statement, which represents less than 1% of all scientists? I fully acknowledge that many scientists are theists, but I think if you asked them point blank whether God created the Universe per the Biblical story of creation they’d disagree.

And it is on these basis that I stand by the FACT that the Bible although penned by men, is Divinely Inspired. As such it agrees with true (verifiable) scientific facts, undeniable, indisputable facts - which confirms *Creation. In addition, it's the ONLY BOOK in existence that explains why we are here and why Creation is factually accurate and contains a reliable satisfactory explanation to the meaning of life.

All other texts of all other religions would make similar claims and have the same weight of evidence behind them.

To quote the Scriptures:

“. . .All Scripture is inspired of God . . .” “For with you is the source of life” (2 Timothy 3:16, Psalm 36:9)

So the Bible is divinely inspired because it claims to be divinely inspired? That's quite circular and not really convincing.

Let me begin with this simple yet impressive Biblical statement:

Fact 1) “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”—Gen. 1:1. - #

What a way to describe Creation! Amazingly simple yet accurately elegant and factually scientific!

Think about the implications of this Genesis statement. If it can be proven that the Universe “the heavens” and the earth had a beginning then it sets the stage and establishes the foundation of WHY the Bible is factually accurate when it comes to scientific facts. It also confirms of its divine origin and that Life is a product of Creation.

So w/o further adieu, what does the evidence show?

Did the universe (heavens) had a beginning according to Genesis 1:1?

Consider:

"Evidence of a beginning"

The book “God and the Astronomers,” page 14, said:

“Now we see how the astronomical evidence leads to a biblical view of the origin of the world.”

The Hubble Telescope and other powerful instruments, higher mathematics and the brightest minds of science has confirmed this to be so: the universe had a beginning – ergo: The Big Bang.

Consider a few more:

Professor of astronomy David L. Block wrote:
“That the universe has not always existed—that it had a beginning—has not always been popular.”

Now:
“Virtually all astrophysicists today conclude, that “the universe began with a big bang that propelled matter outward in all directions.” – reported U.S.News & World Report in 1997

“You can call it the big bang, but you can also call it with accuracy the moment of creation.” – Robert Jastrow

Penzias, who shared in the discovery of background radiation in the universe, observed:
“Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing.”

“What we have found is evidence for the birth of the universe.” – COBE team leader George Smoot

www.youtube.com...=619s

Division of Energy Between Photons and Massive Particles

One of the ideas associated with modeling the Big Bang is that the further back in time you project, the more the universe is dominated by photons. We think of today's universe as mostly matter, but the energy of the early universe was mostly photon energy with massive particles playing a very small role.
The amount of energy in radiation in today's universe can be estimated with the use of the Stefan- Boltzmann law, considering that the universe is filled with blackbody radiation at a temperature of 2.7 K.

hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...

www.youtube.com...

I can provide more but I think the above evidence should be more than enough.

What can we conclude from these evidence?

Just as the Bible has stated: The Universe had a BEGINNING!

On this there's NO Doubt and no more debate!! Something that we can ALL agree on – unless atheist, evolutionists and non-believers want's to challenged it.

What about the earth? Did it had a beginning? This one too is a ESTABLISHED FACT and no need of further evidence or explanation (unless you're not yet convinced).

To those who scoff at the Bible's accuracy, what say you? Can you disproved the scientific accuracy of Genesis 1:1? Evidence of Beginning!

Now please consider these very important questions:

Since the Genesis account was written some 3500 years ago (according to Biblical chronology and factual events surrounding its writing), here's the question that I want you to answer:

How did Moses, a “goat herder” (as referred to here on ATS) get the facts right? How did he knew that the universe (heavens) and the earth had a beginning whereas these amazing scientific facts were known just recently (1900s)? How could a man 3500 years ago be able say, write what science just recently discovered? Think also of the amount of time, money, knowledge and technology to conclusively show that the universe had a beginning. Yet a “goat herder” knew the facts! How was it possible?

Wild guess, coincidence, luck, hallucination or did he copied it from other writings as some claim?

What say you? All or any of the above? In any case whatever your answer is, one thing is clear, Moses got it right! Do you agree?

But whether you agree or not, to me the obvious, clear and logical answer is:

He got the information from someone who has knowledge of space and time. From someone who transcends the material universe because he made it and hence existed before it was. From someone who posses enormous power, with the ability to convert “dynamic energy” into matter (E=mc2 - Isa 40:26 NWT)). In other words Moses was divinely inspired by God the Creator of the heavens and earth - the Almighty God (YHWH - Jehovah/Yahweh). To which he says:

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”—Gen. 1:1.

Do the facts show this to be so? There's no doubt about it!

So what say you ATS?

There are two distinctly different claims being conflated into one here. The first claim is that universe has a beginning. The second claim, being made by you, is that God created it. Does the universe have a beginning? Yes, I hardly view this as a profound statement. Did God create it? Proving that is has a beginning isn't proof that God created it. You need to provide separate evidence thereof. Further, this is far from the only or oldest creation myth in existence. So, by your reasoning, all of them carry the evidentiary weight based on their claims the universe has a beginning.

Next evidence:

Fact 2) In the eighth century B.C.E. Isaiah wrote of Jehovah “...the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell,” (Isaiah 40:22 NWT/ also DBY)

Is there any scientific proof to this statement? What does the evidence show?

www.youtube.com...=26

Notice the use of the phrase “fine gauze,” rather than the coarser tent cloth. This expression describes accurately the delicate construction of such "heavenly canopy". A fact confirmed by modern astronomy (as mentioned) through the use of modern imaging instruments.

So how did the prophet Isaiah knew this to be so and where did he get this space age information? A lucky guess, coincidence or Divine inspiration? The latter is the most logical and obvious answer.

Do the facts show this to be so? There's no doubt about it!

What say you ATS?

So dark matter is the same a “fine gauze”, which is likened to the material that tents are made of? I don’t think so. The author of Isaiah seems to be saying that the heaves are made of a solid and contiguous material that has been stretched out across the sky. Hardly sounds like the mostly empty space that actually exists up there. I think this is a nicely penned simile and that's about it.

Next evidence:

Fact 3) “He is . . . hanging the earth upon nothing.”—Job 26:7.

Misconceptions:

The Egyptians believed that the earth was supported by pillars; the Greeks said by Atlas; others said by an elephant standing on a turtle that swam in a cosmic sea.

The Evidence:

The book of Job, although written in the 15th century B.C.E., is scientifically correct and factually accurate.

Again through the use of powerful instruments, higher mathematics and the brightest minds of science, confirmed its correctness, accuracy and authenticity. That the earth is being held by an invisible force, ergo: Gravitational forces and laws of motion!

The earth hanging “upon nothing” (by gravitational force) governed by the “statutes of the heavens”.

Here's a thought that baffled many in the early ages, a nineteenth century Bible scholar said:

“It presents a singularly strong protest against superstitions prevalent among all heathens . . . Job knows nothing of solid foundations on which the broad expanse of earth is supported. How Job knew the truth, demonstrated by astronomy, that the earth hangs self-poised in empty space, is a question not easily solved by those who deny the inspiration of Holy Scripture.” – F. C. Cook

So the question again is:

Where did Job got the information more than 3400 years ago? How could he possibly know that the earth is “hanging upon nothing”? How was he able to positively point out such an accurate scientific statement without the aid of advance knowledge of modern astronomy/cosmology?

Wild guess, coincidence, luck or did he copied it from other writings as some may say?

What say you? All or any of the above? In any case, whatever your answer is, one thing is sure Job and Moses (writer of Job) got it right! Do you agree? If so what about the rest of Job's statements? What about Moses' other writings – the Pentateuch?

But whether you honestly agree or not, to me the obvious, clear and logical answer is:

Job got the information from someone who has knowledge of space and time. From someone who knew where the material universe came from. From someone who posses enormous power, with the ability to convert “dynamic energy” into matter (E=mc2 - Isa 40:26 NWT)). In other words Moses was divinely inspired by the Creator of the heavens and earth himself - the Almighty God (YHWH - Jehovah/Yahweh). To which he says:
“He is . . . hanging the earth upon nothing.”—Job 26:7.

Do the facts show this to be so? There's no doubt about it!

So Job (the Earth hangs upon nothing) directly refutes Isaiah (the heavens are made of a fine gauze) regarding what constitutes the heavens, yet they’re both right? Or is the Earth not in the same heavens occupied by everything else? Or does the Earth hang upon nothing, but Mars hangs upon the fine gauze? And saying the Earth hangs upon nothing is somehow acknowledgement of the conversion between matter and energy and the existence of space-time? Really? You’re getting this from a book that says the value of pi is 3? This is such a huge stretch in interpretation.

With just these three undeniable facts the evidence is strong in support of Creation!

In conclusion – as we increase our knowledge of the universe, the more WE WILL LEARN about its Grand Creator - Jehovah God. And the more we advance our knowledge of space and time the more we will come to understand in all honesty that in reality we are just catching up on what the Bible already stated millenniums of years ago that life, nature and the universe are products of Creation!

I hope that the evidence presented leaves you with no doubt about it.

“For with you is the source of life” (Psalm 36:9)

So what say you?

What say I? I say that simple critical thinking refutes any of the flimsy connections you’ve drawn here. Your argument, as presented here, is based on taking metaphor literally, reading translations of translations of translations without understanding the context of the original work, and reading inferences into scientific results that simply aren’t here. I say you need to try harder in your sequel to this post.

Originally posted by HispanicPanic
lol creation is common sense. religions were created by extremists to control a select of the population. god and creation, are one entity that work as 2. simple

got what you sayin' HispanicPanic - common sense, and may I add logic.

thx
edmc2

reply to post by iterationzero


you said:

I would argue that religious dogma doesn’t clear up anything relating to science, it does the opposite because it presupposes its conclusion.

Why are you automatically assuming that this is a "religious dogma" just because Creation is mentioned and fit's the facts? And contrary to what you said - I looked at the evidence from a scientific point of view - not the other way around. But you can look at it too from Biblical point of view.

And as you can see the evidence presented support what the Bible stated (milliniums of years ago).

You definitely don't want people to have an advanced (or even basic) understanding of mathematics, physics, chemistry, or biology because it would easily lay the groundwork for refutation of creationism. As level of education increases, adherence to creationism tends to decrease. I’m sure you’ll counter that it’s nothing but indoctrination by atheists with an agenda, but that would fail to explain people that are theists and refute creationism due to it's complete lack of evidence, like Kenneth Miller.

On the contrary, having knowledge of mathematics, physics, chemistry, or biology, etc is a plus. They actually enhance our understanding of how things were made but they have their limits imho as they are not able to fully explain why they were made. So the more we know the more we come to understanding (at least to me) why things are the way they are.

Note also what I said: "Amazing thing also is that it doesn't even require an advance knowledge of mathematics, physics and science to be able to see the the overwhelming evidence of Creation (although it's good to have one)."

I question your claim of honest curiosity - you didn't ask yourself how the universe was created and then eventually reach the answer that it was God. Awe and humility? I can be in awe of the universe without resorting to belief in creationism. I can also be humble in my view of the universe without resorting to belief in creationism.

Curiosity is what drove me at a young age to find out these things and I'm sure many have asked the same questions - where did all of these came from? Were they created? Who created them, ect?

The answer I got from my formative years were unsatisfactory - noone created them - they just came to be - by an unguided process. Using math and science as tools - I came to realize the order and harmony of Creation. As for humility, it takes humility to accept that a Creator was responsible for all of it.

Case in point - will you accept based on the evidence presented that they (life, earth and the universe) were Created?

Many experts in various fields? Do you have some evidence of this other than the old Discovery Institute statement, which represents less than 1% of all scientists? I fully acknowledge that many scientists are theists, but I think if you asked them point blank whether God created the Universe per the Biblical story of creation they’d disagree.

Discovery Institute - sorry I don't go to that site and yes there are many experts in various fields who came to the same conclusion as I did. These experts are now full ministers of God in addition to their field of expertise (of course they are not recognized as such by the scientific community - as expected).

All other texts of all other religions would make similar claims and have the same weight of evidence behind them.

Can you please name one that can match the Bible? I'd like to know.

So the Bible is divinely inspired because it claims to be divinely inspired? That's quite circular and not really convincing.

Not a circular argument but a fact.

Here, let me please post the question to you again:
Fact 1: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”—Gen. 1:1.

How did Moses, a “goat herder” (as referred to here on ATS) get the facts right? How did he knew that the universe (heavens) and the earth had a beginning whereas these amazing scientific facts were known just recently (1900s)? How could a man 3500 years ago be able say, write what science just recently discovered? Think also of the amount of time, money, knowledge and technology to conclusively show that the universe had a beginning. Yet a “goat herder” knew the facts! How was it possible?

If the Bible is not Divinely Inspired what is the obvious and logical answer to the Qs above?

There are two distinctly different claims being conflated into one here. The first claim is that universe has a beginning. The second claim, being made by you, is that God created it. Does the universe have a beginning? Yes, I hardly view this as a profound statement. Did God create it? Proving that is has a beginning isn't proof that God created it. You need to provide separate evidence thereof. Further, this is far from the only or oldest creation myth in existence. So, by your reasoning, all of them carry the evidentiary weight based on their claims the universe has a beginning.

Note again the point of this thread: Biblical Creation is factually accurate.

Since the facts support the Biblical statement that the universe (heavens) had a beginning then it follows that it was created by God as Gen 1:1 states. But if you believe that the universe had a beginning - then how did it came to be? Was it created or did it just came to be?

Logic, math, science and commons sense tells me that when something is designed/created then it must have a designer/creator - do you believe this logic? Yet atheist and evolutionists believe the opposite and I get accused of being nonsensical.

As for myths - yes there are many myths, but they are just that - myths, nothing more nothing less. But the Biblical statements that I presented are backed up by facts! Undeniable facts - not just wishful claims or as you say "myths".

So again - how did Moses "a goat herder" knew the facts?

So dark matter is the same a “fine gauze”, which is likened to the material that tents are made of? I don’t think so. The author of Isaiah seems to be saying that the heaves are made of a solid and contiguous material that has been stretched out across the sky. Hardly sounds like the mostly empty space that actually exists up there. I think this is a nicely penned simile and that's about it.

-- I didn't say dark matter is the same a “fine gauze” - I merely stated the facts according to what scientist saw in their imaging instruments. Which confirms that it looks like a "fine gauze".

But how did the writer of the Bible knew to use such a very descriptive words about the heavens - universe? Did he somehow had a spaceship to go in outer space and peer at the edges of the universe? Or was he told about it?

What say you logically?

So Job (the Earth hangs upon nothing) directly refutes Isaiah (the heavens are made of a fine gauze) regarding what constitutes the heavens, yet they’re both right? Or is the Earth not in the same heavens occupied by everything else? Or does the Earth hang upon nothing, but Mars hangs upon the fine gauze? And saying the Earth hangs upon nothing is somehow acknowledgement of the conversion between matter and energy and the existence of space-time? Really? You’re getting this from a book that says the value of pi is 3? This is such a huge stretch in interpretation.

I hope you're not confusing the two: Job was talking about the "earth" while Isaiah was talking about the "heavens". And yes both of them are supported by facts as we've already seen, and no they are not as you say "huge stretch in interpretation". As for pi - I think you're getting super-super-super critical of the Bible that even an approximation of a circumference of a circle - is regarded as a "huge stretch in interpretation." Need to lighten up a bit there if I may suggest.

What say I? I say that simple critical thinking refutes any of the flimsy connections you’ve drawn here. Your argument, as presented here, is based on taking metaphor literally, reading translations of translations of translations without understanding the context of the original work, and reading inferences into scientific results that simply aren’t here. I say you need to try harder in your sequel to this post.

So are you saying that when that Bible sates that: "“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”—Gen. 1:1. - it's an interpretation, a translation? An translation of what?

How can you possibly make an error or mistranslate and misinterpret the statement "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” or the statement: "“...the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell,” or the statement "“He is . . . hanging the earth upon nothing.”?

Unless you want to stretch it beyond its simple and elegant mening. I hope not.

Thanks for your input.



...edmc2

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


Atheism is simply make believe for adults.


That's basically what the atheist does. They spend their entire existence trying to push God out of their mind through what appears 'logical' and 'reasonable' assertions.

Most are quite good at this adult version of make believe. They've erected enough blockades and pulled enough shades, they kinda think he does not exist.

Yet the fact they continue over and over again to push him out of their mind, just shows he does indeed exist.

Originally posted by Chantale
100% with your opinion, I would like to add this link, it is in french (do a translation) but it explained also from the indians and ancestors all different world we lived in before. It is worth a reading also.
www.antonparks.com...

Merci Chantale for the reply and for the link.

edmc2

If you believe someone created something, You most likely believe that thing had a beginning.
This could be one of the most "wtf" "proofs of god" I have ever seen.

What I am most impressed by is how long you rambled on trying to make a ridiculous point.
I almost believe you believe it.

edit

Originally posted by Astyanax
Ah, yes. Another God promotion from the indefatigable edmc^2, who will babble and ramble, distort logic and commonsense to the point of unrecognizability, and contemptuously ignore questions and criticisms in order to peddle his favourite line of tosh.

Guess what? I’m not playing this time.

And frankly, my sensible friends, neither should you. I say we stop feeding this creationist’s habit.

I wish I did not miss this post first time reading this thread.

reply to post by edmc^2

May I ask you coyotepoet these questions - when was the Quran written? Or for that matter is there any other book in existence containing such factually accurate information? A book inspired by the Creator of the "heavens and the earth"?

Not sure when the Quran was written truthfully, but yes. Many sacred texts have factually accurate information in them. Most, including the Bible have many deep insights when understood from esoteric/symbolic levels and not strictly from literal interpretations. Venn diagram time:

Say you have 2 circles A and B. A is a circle that is inside of B. Lets say A is the literal/exoteric interpretation of the Bible and B is the esoteric understanding. Does that mean A is not true because B is true? Absolutely not. A is still true even though B is as well. Different levels of understanding that is all.

Originally posted by LikeDuhObviously
If you believe someone created something, You most likely believe that thing had a beginning.
This could be one of the most "wtf" "proofs of god" I have ever seen.

What I am most impressed by is how long you rambled on trying to make a ridiculous point.
I almost believe you believe it.

edit

Originally posted by Astyanax
Ah, yes. Another God promotion from the indefatigable edmc^2, who will babble and ramble, distort logic and commonsense to the point of unrecognizability, and contemptuously ignore questions and criticisms in order to peddle his favourite line of tosh.

Guess what? I’m not playing this time.

And frankly, my sensible friends, neither should you. I say we stop feeding this creationist’s habit.

I wish I did not miss this post first time reading this thread.

edit on 8-4-2011 by LikeDuhObviously because: (no reason given)

Same o response - can't refute the facts so create a way out.

Anyway thanks for your rambling.

edmc2

While you may believe that you are basing your argument on facts the truth is that the big bang theory is just a theory and not an established fact. the other bits, earth hanging on nothing and the fine gauss are just stretching things so that they fit. This kind of stretching is easy with vague assertions like those found in the bible.