Here is proof that Obama has not released his long form birth certificate yet

Originally posted by OldCorp

Originally posted by aptnessThe definition of natural-born citizen the birthers want to use to disqualify Obama, even regardless of were he was born, unquestionably disqualifies McCain. But they don’t have certain ‘feelings’ or ‘suspicions’ about McCain, so they don’t they care about that.

You couldn't be more wrong. John McCain was born on a US military base (Panama Canal Zone) to a US citizen mother and a US citizen father who was serving on active duty at the time. US military bases in other countries are considered our sovereign territory, so he might as well have been born on the Capitol steps.

His mom was born in Kansas and his father born in Kenya and is the 7th POTUS to have at least one parent born on foriegn soil so if it did not apply to them it does not apply to Obama.

Originally posted by tom502
I read that Obama has a sister Maya Soetoro(not sure if that's spelled right), who was born in Indonesia, yet, also has a Hawaii Certificate of Live Birth. Anyone know more about this? It follows along with how some have said getting one of these at that time was not hard.

Maya Soetoro-Ng was born in Indonesia but according to a recent Federal law her bc must be on file domestically for passport purposes because to apply for a passport for the US you must submit your bc from your home nation in order to prove who you say you are.

It lists your city and hospital of birth.

Due to PATRIOT 2006 all bc's issued prior to like 2002 have been voided because of identity theft.

Originally posted by OldCorp
You couldn't be more wrong. John McCain was born on a US military base (Panama Canal Zone) to a US citizen mother and a US citizen father who was serving on active duty at the time. US military bases in other countries are considered our sovereign territory, so he might as well have been born on the Capitol steps.

You just showed, again, that the people on this movement demanding to see Obama’s “long form” birth certificate, just perpetuate falsehoods and are, generally, ignorant about the actual laws of this country.

Military bases and diplomatic facilities abroad are not considered US soil for 14th Amendment purposes. Don’t take my word for it, it’s the United States government’s own view. From the Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual—

Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic or consular facilities abroad are not part of the United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not born in the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth.

I await your acknowledgement of the inaccuracy of your statement.

As long as Obama refuses to release it, this question will NOT go away. He MUST produce it anyway if he wants to get on the 2012 ballot in Arizona and a couple of other states that have pending legislation requiring a long form BC of ANY candidate.

And unfortunately for your movement that legislation doesn’t stand a chance in hell of standing. The question of eligibility of the President of the United States is obviously a federal one, not one the states can regulate through state legislation.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1

Originally posted by OldCorp

Originally posted by aptnessThe definition of natural-born citizen the birthers want to use to disqualify Obama, even regardless of were he was born, unquestionably disqualifies McCain. But they don’t have certain ‘feelings’ or ‘suspicions’ about McCain, so they don’t they care about that.

You couldn't be more wrong. John McCain was born on a US military base (Panama Canal Zone) to a US citizen mother and a US citizen father who was serving on active duty at the time. US military bases in other countries are considered our sovereign territory, so he might as well have been born on the Capitol steps.

His mom was born in Kansas and his father born in Kenya and is the 7th POTUS to have at least one parent born on foriegn soil so if it did not apply to them it does not apply to Obama.

OK, that made absolutely NO sense. You must subscribe to the theory that "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh*t." What part of "US military bases in other countries are considered our sovereign territory" do you not understand?

The law applies equally to both McCain and Obama; but the circumstances are different in each case, so the outcome is different as well. You simply don't like the outcome, so you're attempting to obfuscate the issue. You have failed.

Originally posted by aptness

Originally posted by OldCorp
You couldn't be more wrong. John McCain was born on a US military base (Panama Canal Zone) to a US citizen mother and a US citizen father who was serving on active duty at the time. US military bases in other countries are considered our sovereign territory, so he might as well have been born on the Capitol steps.

You just showed, again, that the people on this movement demanding to see Obama’s “long form” birth certificate, just perpetuate falsehoods and are, generally, ignorant about the actual laws of this country.

Military bases and diplomatic facilities abroad are not considered US soil for 14th Amendment purposes. Don’t take my word for it, it’s the United States government’s own view. From the Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual—

Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic or consular facilities abroad are not part of the United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not born in the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth.

I await your acknowledgement of the inaccuracy of your statement.

As long as Obama refuses to release it, this question will NOT go away. He MUST produce it anyway if he wants to get on the 2012 ballot in Arizona and a couple of other states that have pending legislation requiring a long form BC of ANY candidate.

And unfortunately for your movement that legislation doesn’t stand a chance in hell of standing. The question of eligibility of the President of the United States is obviously a federal one, not one the states can regulate through state legislation.

edit on 11-4-2011 by aptness because: (no reason given)

They are leased facilites and since the parents retain all citizenship the citizenship automatically divests to the US.

Originally posted by OldCorp
And if you'll look at the title of the poll - Obama vs. Wingnuts - you should be easily able to discern the pollster's disdain for the "Birther" cause. Even so, they reported that 25% of the citizens of this country believe Obama to be a usurper. I think that's a large enough number for the question to be taken seriously.

In that case, I think this is relevant...

Community surveys estimate that as many as 30% of the adult population in the United States suffer from mental disorders. The National Comorbidity Survey Replication (NCS-R), a nationally representative face-to-face household survey conducted by Harvard University, the University of Michigan, and the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) Intramural Research Program, between February 2001 and April 2003 used a structured diagnostic interview of 9,282 randomly selected English-speaking Americans age eighteen and older. Ronald Kessler et al in "Prevalence, Severity, and Comorbidity of 12-Month DSM-IV Disorders in the National Comorbidity Survey Replication" (Archives of General Psychiatry, June 2005) found that more than one-quarter (26.2%) of all Americans met the criteria for having a mental illness, and fully a quarter of those had a "serious" disorder that significantly disrupted their ability to function day to day.

Mental Health and Illness - How Many People Are Mentally Ill?

Originally posted by OldCorp
You couldn't be more wrong. John McCain was born on a US military base (Panama Canal Zone) to a US citizen mother and a US citizen father who was serving on active duty at the time. US military bases in other countries are considered our sovereign territory, so he might as well have been born on the Capitol steps.

Actually, that's not entirely correct, and some debate McCain's eligibility...

In April 2008 the U.S. Senate approved a non-binding resolution recognizing McCain's status as a natural born citizen.[64] In September 2008 U.S. District Judge William Alsup stated obiter in his ruling that it is "highly probable" that McCain is a natural born citizen from birth by virtue of 8 U.S.C. § 1401, although he acknowledged the alternative possibility that McCain became a natural born citizen retroactively, by way of 8 U.S.C. § 1403.[65] These views have been criticized by Gabriel J. Chin, Professor of Law at the University of Arizona, who argues that McCain was at birth a citizen of Panama and was only retroactively declared a born citizen under 8 U.S.C. § 1403, because at the time of his birth and with regard to the Canal Zone the Supreme Court's Insular Cases overruled the Naturalization Act of 1795, which would otherwise have declared McCain a U.S. citizen immediately at birth.[66] The US Foreign Affairs Manual states that children born in the Panama Canal Zone at certain times became U.S. nationals without citizenship.[67] It also states in general that "it has never been determined definitively by a court whether a person who acquired U.S. citizenship by birth abroad to U.S. citizens is a natural born citizen […]".[68] In Rogers v. Bellei the Supreme Court only ruled that "children born abroad of Americans are not citizens within the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment", and didn't elaborate on the natural born status.[69][70] Similarly, legal scholar Lawrence Solum concluded in an article on the natural born citizen clause that the question of McCain's eligibility could not be answered with certainty, and that it would depend on the particular approach of "constitutional construction".

Natural Born Citizen Clause

reply to post by aptness


Good article on McCain's eligibility here..
www.nytimes.com...

What interests me more ...The US Government understanding that US citizens would be working there for extended periods of time created the Panamal canal Zone as a US territory and put laws in place to give children born thier US Citizenship.

McCains camp claims this covered his "Natural Born Status", but technically the laws didn't speak to the same...just plain old citizenship rather than "Natural Born".

let's say we give it to him. Congress at the time must have just not been thinking what if a future president is born there? OK...so we let that technicality slide...but this...this is what gets me...

According to his Certificate of Birth he was born at Colon Hospital...

www.scribd.com...

and guess what? Colon Hospital WAS NOT IN THE US TERRITORY/PANAMA CANAL ZONE...

The Panama Canal Zone (Spanish: Zona del Canal de Panamá) was a 553 square mile (1,432 km2) unorganized U.S. territory located within the Republic of Panama, consisting of the Panama Canal and an area generally extending 5 miles (8.1 km) on each side of the centerline, but excluding Panama City and Colón, which otherwise would have fallen in part within the limits of the Canal Zone.

en.wikipedia.org...

The McCain eligibility debate always begins with the assumption that he was born in the Panama Canal Zone (US Territory)...but while his parents resided there, the hospital he was born at was outside of that zone...McCain wasn't even born in a US Territory! Not on a Naval Base, He was born in Panama

The hospital was run by US military for the benefit of the Canal workers, but it also served primarily Panamanians and was specifically excluded from US Territory. McCain is a US citizenship by virtue of having been born there as much as any of the thousands of Panamanians that were born at that hospital during the same time.

Originally posted by aptness

Originally posted by OldCorp
You couldn't be more wrong. John McCain was born on a US military base (Panama Canal Zone) to a US citizen mother and a US citizen father who was serving on active duty at the time. US military bases in other countries are considered our sovereign territory, so he might as well have been born on the Capitol steps.

You just showed, again, that the people on this movement demanding to see Obama’s “long form” birth certificate, just perpetuate falsehoods and are, generally, ignorant about the actual laws of this country.

Military bases and diplomatic facilities abroad are not considered US soil for 14th Amendment purposes. Don’t take my word for it, it’s the United States government’s own view. From the Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual—

Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic or consular facilities abroad are not part of the United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not born in the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth.

I await your acknowledgement of the inaccuracy of your statement.

Don't hold your breath. You "conveniently" left out the very next sentence which reads:

The foregoing section of the FAM only addresses citizenship by 'jus soli: In short, what is the geographic scope of the "United States"? This does not affect citizenship via 'jus sanguinis, i.e. those who are born abroad to U.S. citizens and who otherwise meet the qualifications for statutory citizenship

In other words, the pregnant Guatemalan secretary who works at the US embassy can not have her child on the premises and expect her child to be a US citizen. The FAM does not (in this context) address the children of two US citizens who have a child on said sovereign US territory.

If you're going to purposely lie to prove your point you have already lost the argument.

As long as Obama refuses to release it, this question will NOT go away. He MUST produce it anyway if he wants to get on the 2012 ballot in Arizona and a couple of other states that have pending legislation requiring a long form BC of ANY candidate.

And unfortunately for your movement that legislation doesn’t stand a chance in hell of standing. The question of eligibility of the President of the United States is obviously a federal one, not one the states can regulate through state legislation.

You may be right about the law not standing. I've given up trying to predict what the courts will do; they've been actively helping TPTB dismantle the Constitution for years, and I don't expect the trend to stop any time soon. I CAN guarantee one thing tho: any challenge to the law will bring about an "inconvenient truth" called DISCOVERY, and once again Obama will be FORCED to release his long form BC.

The dude is screwed, and the sooner you get behind that simple fact the less painful the revelation of the truth will be for you. I know it's gotta sting to think that your Messiah has lied to you, and the rest of the nation, all along; but one way or another, the truth will prevail.

I'd like to take this opportunity to DISMISS the claims of racism on the part of the "Birthers," and in particular as it relates to me:

I gave you the link to my blog where I excoriated Bush a few days ago. You either chose not to read it, or you chose to ignore the fact that I AM FAIR in my criticisms of our elected officials. READ IT AGAIN if you haven't already.

Under the section where I talk about Colin Powell you will see that I consider him to be a man of unquestionable Honor. Believe or not, I named my first-born son after the General (he was born when I was covering the first Gulf War for CBS Radio.) In fact, I know you won't believe me because you people never do; according to your lot, if a fact doesn't sit well with your world view, then it MUST be a lie - so I just took a picture of his Social Security card:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/667330e02724.jpg[/atsimg]

Don't you DARE accuse me of racism - EVER. I would have voted for Colin Powell over ANY other candidate had he run, and it had absolutely NOTHING to do with the color of his skin; rather what Dr. King called "content of his character."

Originally posted by OldCorp
Don't hold your breath. You "conveniently" left out the very next sentence which reads:

Yeah, what a surprise, even when confronted with the facts the birthers don’t want to recant their lies.

The FAM does not (in this context) address the children of two US citizens who have a child on said sovereign US territory. If you're going to purposely lie to prove your point you have already lost the argument.

This is what you said:

US military bases in other countries are considered our sovereign territory, so he might as well have been born on the Capitol steps.

Your implication here was that military bases were just as same as being born in US soil. I showed you that it’s not. So your statement that being born on a military base would be the same as being born on US soil is demonstrably false.

Now you’re calling me a liar by deflecting and talking about statutory citizenship. If you meant from the start that you were addressing only the statutory question why did you even mention military bases? Right...

It is obvious McCain citizenship could have only been granted through statutory means, based on jus sanguinis, seeing as he wasn’t born on US soil. And I didn’t contest this. Your statement about military bases, however, is still incorrect and that’s what I addressed and proved by the citation of the government’s own position.

Don't you DARE accuse me of racism - EVER.

Did I accuse you of being a racist? Can you show me where I did this?

Originally posted by aptness

SNIP

I have to go pick up my kid from school and get a load of topsoil for my garden before the landscaper's closes. Just wanted you to know I WILL be back to continue this.

Originally posted by maybereal11
McCains camp claims this covered his "Natural Born Status", but technically the laws didn't speak to the same...just plain old citizenship rather than "Natural Born". ...

According to his Certificate of Birth he was born at Colon Hospital...
and guess what? Colon Hospital WAS NOT IN THE US TERRITORY/PANAMA CANAL ZONE...

It wouldn’t matter if he had been born in the Canal Zone, because at the time of McCain’s birth it was not an incorporated US territory. There were a couple of Supreme Court cases, known as the Insular cases, where the Court ruled that unincorporated territories weren’t fully covered by the Constitution. McCain is not a 14th Amendment citizen.

In fact, if McCain had been born in Panama and not in the Canal Zone his status, although not fully resolved, would be more clear. There was a 1934 legislation — called the Act of May 1934 — that granted citizenship to persons born “outside the limits and jurisdiction of the United States” to at least one citizen parent. The Canal Zone was outside the limits but was in the jurisdiction of the United States.

That’s why in 1937 the Congress passed legislation, codified now at 8 USC 1403, granting US citizenship to persons born in the Canal Zone with at least one citizen parent.

There are two problems with this: (1) this legislation was adopted several months after McCain’s birth, and (2) the language of the legislation is apparently naturalizing the covered persons (“Any person born in the Canal Zone on or after February 26, 1904 ... whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States, is declared to be a citizen of the United States.”)

McCain might be a naturalized US citizen. Even if he is not a naturalized US citizen he wasn’t a US citizen when he was born, and his citizenship was granted retroactively.

I have no problems with McCain serving as President if he had won. In fact, I am against the natural born citizen condition in the Constitution, but it’s not clear McCain is a natural born citizen, and he certainly isn’t a natural born citizen by the definition the birthers use to disqualify Obama regardless of where he was born.